Men's IssuesA transwoman's objection to gay male spaces

submitted by JulienMayfair from self.LGBDropTheT

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[–]Willpoll 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

Well no. Bi men are still men loving men. If a trans woman is attracted to men wouldn't you consider that to be straight? Your conflating men's spaces with gay men's spaces. I have no problem with trans women in men's spaces. however trans women in gay men's spaces is a different matter entirely.

I'm coming from the perspective that if a trans woman is attracted to men and at least tries to present themselves as a woman, why would they think that gay men would be comfortable with someone who presents as a woman in their spaces. The main roadblock here is that you are conflating gay men's spaces with men's spaces in general. Spaces are created by people to feel, well safe and to meet people who are like each other. the typical reason for gay men's spaces is for men to go find other people attracted to men who consider themselves men. you said gay men's spaces in your first sentence but since then all you've been saying is men's spaces. Trans women in men's spaces are fine imo but to expect trans women who are attracted to men, someone who is effectively straight by societies standards into gay men's spaces is a tad over the line. sure you need men's or women's spaces but you don't need gay men's spaces especially when by your own logic your straight

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

If a trans woman is attracted to men wouldn't you consider that to be straight?

Me? Yes,basically though it’s not so simple. I am biromantic and spent a long time living as an ostensibly gay man so I do sometimes still think of myself as gay even though I consider myself a woman. Though my personal history is a bit tangent. But I also think we should be in women’s spaces generally (or third spaces if they are available). The issue I’m pointing out is if you don’t want trans women in women’s spaces, like most here apparently, the how can you say that they shouldn’t be allowed in men’s spaces either? If you think we are men and shouldn’t be in women’s spaces then how can you argue that trans women who are attracted to men don’t belong in gay men’s spaces? Are we men or not to you?

[–]Willpoll 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

To answer this question, well it's quite simple really. there is no single gender space for straight people. they wouldn't be straight if they looked for people who identified as the same gender. So there is no need for straight women's spaces at least when it comes to the dating scene. The only spaces available when it comes to straight dating are mixed spaces. if a trans woman is trying to date a man, then there is never a need for a single gender space. I can say that they shouldn't be allowed in gay men's spaces because it's a matter of mindset. If you are effectively straight and identify as a woman why is there a need for gay men's spaces when literally everything about straight dating and interaction is this third space??? the men vs women's spaces is an entirely different argument. And as for whether or not your men I am as of yet undecided for the most part on that. I am not saying you should be banned from men's spaces but that's sex segregation, not sexuality segregation

[–]PenseePansyBio-Sex or Bust 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

While I'm not a man (gay or otherwise), the following hasn't been brought up yet and seems like it might help answer this question:

Though you are indeed a man to gay men, that's not actually the point here. It's really about what kind of man you are. And that's a man who: 1.] has rejected being a man; and 2.] believes that "gender identity" overrides biological sex.

Both of these things are, at best, inherently insulting to gay men; at worst, they're flat-out threatening.

Gay men's spaces are defined by valuing maleness (their very identity = one's own maleness + that of those to whom one is attracted); what place does a man who's disavowed being male have there? Why would he belong any more than a black person who's openly disavowed their blackness and identifies as white would in black spaces? And, especially given that the "gay men = women" equation is a core element of homophobia, this also has an ominous aspect (gay men expected to "trans" into the women that they "should" have been, a la Iran).

Similarly, your belief that gender > sex is in opposition to gay identity itself, as that's based on biological sex and can't exist without it. Since this has the potential to erase them, "offensive" is about the mildest response you can expect from gay men here.

So what spaces are appropriate for you? Well, certainly not women's (sex-based identity again + the pervasive threat males pose to females), so either third spaces or straight men's spaces. Granted, the latter are another sex-based identity, but one so powerful that they're probably safe from erasure (or feeling threatened by it).

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Leaving aside the patently offensive allegations that my existence itself is somehow dangerous.

I am by your reckoning a man, who looks like a man albiet one with an unusual presentation, who is interested in men. What concieveable reason would I have to be in a place with straight men, espescially given that the majority of violence against us is perpetrated by Straight men?

[–]PenseePansyBio-Sex or Bust 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Leaving aside the patently offensive allegations that my existence itself is somehow dangerous.

You are a man. Men endanger women. Women not having to worry about your being dangerous to them > your being offended.

I am by your reckoning a man, who looks like a man albiet one with an unusual presentation, who is interested in men. What concieveable reason would I have to be in a place with straight men, espescially given that the majority of violence against us is perpetrated by Straight men?

That may well be a problem for you. Emphasis on "you". It is not gay men's problem, nor women's problem.