LifestyleBringing back gender nonconformity

submitted by HelloMomo from self.LGBDropTheT

I'm young, and I'm not super educated on the history, and so if I'm wrong, someone please correct me. But it seems like at some point in the gay liberation movement, people decided to divorce the idea that homosexuality and gender nonconformity are correlated, in order to normalize gay people (aka, "See, we're just like you!")

Except... homosexuality and gender nonconformity are correlated. Certainly not always, but often enough to be statistically significant. This isn't hearsay: it's verified by numbers.

And so, after being told that gender expression and sexuality have nothing, nothing to do with each other, the really butch girls and feminine boys were like, "Ok, so what's my gender nonconformity about, then?" So they went looking for answers, and found... weird ones.

(This is not remotely the only factor behind the trans phenomena. I don't even think it's the main one. This is just a factor I hadn't really thought about before, and am thinking about suddenly, and have some ideas about that I want to write down.)

TL;DR: It seems like in order to make gay people more palatable to the masses, the gender nonconforming tendencies that are common of many were downplayed. And now we've got a generation of butch lesbians and hyper-feminine gay boys who are transitioning. So I think the solution has to involve reincorporating gender performance, to some extent.

Logistically, I'm not sure what this would look like. And there's of course the danger of the other extreme, where gender conforming folks are told they're "not really gay." I don't know what the best approach would be done, but I gotta believe there's something that could help.

Like cross-dressing and using masculine nicknames used to be pretty standard butch behavior. Now they're steps in transitioning. There should be space for these things, without reading too much into them, but also without brushing them off as entirely meaningless. I don't know how that can be brought back, but it should be.

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[–]Gearbeta 30 insightful - 1 fun30 insightful - 0 fun31 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

So, it wasn't that people just decided to divorce gender nonconformity with homosexuality, it was that for a time, there was a lot of effort put into being against stereotypes all together. When I was growing up, it was, your daughter's a tomboy now but this doesn't necessarily mean she will grow up to be a lesbian. And this was also being done at a time where people were being told girls can do anything boys can, all children should be able to play with any toy they want, etc etc. This has kind of reversed itself in recent times and I do believe that trans people are ultimately responsible for this.

What I think is happening is that because trans women are saying what they think makes them women are getting a lot of media attention, this has made its way back down to the rest of society and because their views of what women are are so warped, everyone else's views of women get warped too. You see transwomen saying how they knew they were women because they loved high heels, or being submissive or they loved make up or hated sports, so now what happens if you're a young woman who hates that stuff or loves sports? Easy. You're just not a woman any more! In a sense, TRAs have expanded what gender non conformity is, because it doesn't fit their own vision of what a women is.

As for butches and feminine guys, I believe they are transitioning because the trans movement is essentially telling you "you are too masculine to be a women so you might as well be a man" or "you are too feminine to be a man so you might as well be a woman". Less to do with the correlation of being gender non conforming with being gay and more to do with the trans rights movement having extremely rigid gender roles. The erasure of gay people is a bonus.

[–]oofreesouloo⚡super lesbian⚡ 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

This.

[–]MezozoicGayoldschool gay 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Gender ideology is all about putting people into the boxes, and whole idea is "I can go from one box to another", this means that real gender non-conforming people are breaking their ideology, that is why they are so strongly defending gender stereotypes.

[–]haveanicedaytoo💗💜💙 18 insightful - 1 fun18 insightful - 0 fun19 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

I don't disagree that bi/homosexuality and gender nonconformity are correlated BUT there are a very huge number of straight people, especially straight women who are gender nonconforming. This has to do with how strict gender roles for women were in the past and how incompatible life currently is with those roles. For example, gender roles say a woman should stay home and shit out kids and be a good housewife. Meanwhile, the economy says, you can barely survive in a dual income household with two people, even without kids. Meanwhile, more and more women are thinking, "why do I even need to be married and be a slave to a baby and some kids, and work, and come home and do housework, and the husband does nothing, just because I'm a woman?" This makes no sense at all. It isn't because they are bi/homosexual, it's because this world and those gender roles no longer make any sense together.

I would argue that it's more like this:

A significant portion of bi/homosexuals are gender nonconforming, we know because we can see them with our own eyes. However we don't know what percent of bi/homosexuals are gender conforming, because they blend in with heterosexuals, and we don't know what they are unless they tell us.

And a significant portion of straight women are gender nonconforming to some degree, because gender roles and reality are no longer compatible with each other.

Here is another example. Gender roles in the past said all girls have to be virgins before marriage, but boys are expected to be having sex before marriage and "sowing their wild oats." So who are all these boys supposed to be having sex with? Each other? So girls were put in a position where they either have to be "Good girls" and wait until marriage, or they go against artificial gender roles to follow their natural bodily urges and have sex, and roll the dice, either the guy they do it with will end up being a good guy and marry them, or at least not tell anyone. Or he'll be an absolute piece of shit and ruin her reputation and destroy her life. So of course women rebelled against this. It's not because they are homosexual, it's because the gender role was stupid, oppressive, and made no sense.

Also, for a lot of both straight and L/B women, gender nonconformity is rooted in internalized misogyny. Some of us call it "Not like the other girls syndrome." And that's a completely different beast that needs to be addressed in a separate conversation.

Also, when you pull the focus back from America and look worldwide, many gender roles just completely crumble apart. In many countries and cultures, women aren't shaving their body hair. Men have long hair and wear garments that would be considered skirts or feminine. In my country men shave their armpits and wear pink. When you pull the focus back even further and look at the world across the centuries, gender roles crumble even more. Around 150 years ago, "pink is for girls, blue is for boys" wasn't even a thing.

Anyway, I'm not able to address all your points right now, because I'm tired, maybe I'll come back tomorrow and do an new comment when my thoughts aren't so scattered. I just wanted to share some thoughts. This gender role stuff has SOOOO MANY different pieces to it.

[–]oofreesouloo⚡super lesbian⚡ 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

A significant portion of bi/homosexuals are gender nonconforming, we know because we can see them with our own eyes. However we don't know what percent of bi/homosexuals are gender conforming, because they blend in with heterosexuals, and we don't know what they are unless they tell us.

THIS! Like for real, no one can tell I'm a lesbian and people only know because I'm out but still many people don't believe me and/or have no idea. The ONLY gay people I know are GNC because they're the "visible" ones. For example, I've yet to meet a masculine gay man. I know they're out there, but they're not "clockable" and blend in with the straights easier. The same with feminine lesbians. It's much more "easier" to spot a GNC gay person than a gender conforming gay person. And more often than not, GNC gay people tend to also be "louder" about their sexuality. Not all of them, but many, whereas gender conforming people are just much more discreet.

The only lgb gender conforming people I've met were bi women. Apart from that, none. And those bi women are much more "discreet" and less loud than butch lesbians or feminine gay men I've met, for example. My ex was also gender conforming, but she didn't label herself, so idk lol. I think she was a lesbian though, but can't tell for sure LOL.

[–]florasisHOMOSEXUAL FEMALE/Pussy is my God and I'm monotheist 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

The ones who fit stereotypes cannot hide themselves like the ones who don't

[–]VioletRemiCat, homosexual one 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Non-binaries and transgenders want to fit "different box than they" stereotypes, unlike real GNC people :D

[–]florasisHOMOSEXUAL FEMALE/Pussy is my God and I'm monotheist 15 insightful - 4 fun15 insightful - 3 fun16 insightful - 4 fun -  (0 children)

Being homosexual is already being gender non conforming .

[–]OPPRESSED_REPTILIANIntersex male | GNC | Don't call me "a gay", "twink" or "queen" 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun -  (10 children)

Except... homosexuality and gender nonconformity are correlated. Certainly not always, but often enough to be statistically significant. This isn't hearsay: it's verified by numbers.

It's really not, though. Unless your statistics are incredibly, REALLY biased and closed-off, and/or your definition of gender non conformity is narrow.

If you mean GNC to mean "Trans and drag queens" then yes. There will be a higher gay percentage.

But if you look at the rest of androgynous people, that's not the case. Take my disorder, for example. I'm a guy with a disorder of sexual development (or "intersex condition") that causes me to have feminine traits, and look very androgynous. These kinds of disorders are actually among the most common forms of "intersex" and I think Klinefelter's syndrome might be the most known and recognized of "intersex disorders." Now, if you look into communities of these men you'll find something that (if you're the type of asshat who stereotypes people) will shock you. And that is, they are not more likely to be gay. That's right! Men with inherently lower testosterone levels, or even higher estrogen levels, do not show any increased rates of homosexuality. In fact one of the most common concerns I see from guys with disorders like this is "Will women still like me if I have wide hips/look the way I do?"

The idea that GNC and homosexuality are linked is backwards, and simultaneously disrespectful to homosexuals and GNC people. It's amazing and pathetic that people still believe this in 2020. It's scientifically inaccurate, there is literally no evidence to support it. Gender roles aka whether kids like dolls or trucks for toys does not determine someone's sexuality, nor does their PHYSICAL masculinity/femininity such as body shape and hormone levels. If it did, there wouldn't be a ton of hyper-macho gay guys and people like me woudln't be turned away from the gay community for "not being men enough". Seriously, look at any gay community full of obsessive gym rats and aggressive masculinity and try to tell me with a straight face that gayness and "girliness" are linked.

Also, I am both GNC and homosexual. I don't think they are linked nor SHOULD they be. I may belong to both but they are entirely seperate worlds, and conflating them is the exact reason trans is associated with homosexuality to begin with.

[–]florasisHOMOSEXUAL FEMALE/Pussy is my God and I'm monotheist 14 insightful - 1 fun14 insightful - 0 fun15 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Yeah, the idea that gay men are cute girly males is such a bullshit. I mean they are like that, but isn't the norm, like isn't the norm for a lesbian to be mainly. We are women and men and liking the same sex doesn't make us like the opposite sex

[–]Q-Continuum-kin 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Homosexuality is gender-nonconforming by definition though. Part of both genders is an expectation to get married and have 2.5 children. People who are "just single" can be considered to be failures or unlucky while anyone who accepts their homosexuality is blatantly rejecting societal gender rules.

[–]florasisHOMOSEXUAL FEMALE/Pussy is my God and I'm monotheist 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Its' both. Homosexuality goes against the norm of liking the opposite sex and, especially, as kids, gays tend not be gender non conforming because everything is set for us to like the opposite sex. But people expect a lesbian to be butch or a gay man to be a sissy, that's bullshit.

[–]OPPRESSED_REPTILIANIntersex male | GNC | Don't call me "a gay", "twink" or "queen" 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

It isn't really. Like, tell that to all the "HURGH I'M A MANLY MAN MEN ONLY MASC4MASC" gay males who embody toxic gender roles.

Yes, a lot of gender roles revolve around heterosexual dynamics, and were created for that purpose, but that doesn't mean that being gay in itself is an act of "gender defiance." Just like a guy wearing a pink shirt occassionally doesn't mean he can't be performing toxic masculinity or be sexist.

As someone who has always been really gender non conforming, and mostly not by choice (Born with intersex condition, look androgynous, would look odd if I tried to be manly and probably get more shit that way) I take offense to people who think that simply being gay, or doing something really basic like a man painting his nails or a woman wearing pants is the same as living as a true GNC life. I get a lot of shit for the way I am - and no, a man who paints his nails, or a gay man who embodies gender norms in literally every way but his orientation, is not going to have a comparable experience to someone who looks androgynous, doesn't fit into the masculine/feminine boxes, and is treated as a social outcast.

Being homosexual is not special nor revolutionary. You want to make a statement and "stick it to the man", you're going to have to do a whole lot more than just that.

[–]Q-Continuum-kin 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

irrelevant. i didnt say they break all gender rules. i guess if you are gay but don't act on it you don't break the gender rules but breaking 1 is still nonconforming, especially when you seemingly throw it in the face of your supposed rule by blatantly refusing to engage in opposite sex relationships.

[–]oofreesouloo⚡super lesbian⚡ 4 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

I agree with you 100%.

[–]Wos290 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Being intersex has nothing to do with gender (non)conformity though.

Somehow you start out your post by implying that intersex = gnc, which doesn't even make sense. Then you continue to say that there is no correlation between gnc and homosexuality, because intersex people have the same rate of homosexuality as others(???)

Most intersex people I've met are indeed heterosexual but at the same time they are also gender conforming so I really dont know what point you were trying to make.

As a GNC homosexual myself I on the other hand really do think homosexuality and being gnc are correlated in a lot of people (not all ofcourse). Atleast in my experience most feminine acting men I've met were indeed homosexual. Meanwhile I struggle to remember a single feminine acting het guy.

[–]OPPRESSED_REPTILIANIntersex male | GNC | Don't call me "a gay", "twink" or "queen" 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

It does have a link. I'm GNC because I'm intersex. I was born with a feminine bone structure and appearance - the only way I could ever be gender conforming is if I took HRT and got radical cosmetic surgery and that's beyond a stupid idea.

I'm saying that, generally, guys who are actually feminine (and not just putting on skirts for some humiliation kink on the weekends) are no more likely to be homosexual. This includes, BUT IS NOT LIMITED TO, intersex guys. My point was, higher estrogen does not make you gay. Lower testosterone does not make you gay. There is no correlation between a feminine appearance and homosexuality.

What is "feminine acting?" Because frankly, I do not believe putting on a comical accent and being "submissive in bed" is "feminine." I also believe that people who go far the other way and try to emulate the opposite sex's gender role (see "homosexual transsexuals) are NOT gender non conforming - they are gender conforming. Just to the opposite sex's gender role.

[–]Wos290 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

As much as I hate differentiating the two terms at all, it's called gender nonconformity because it's related to gender, not sex. If you are an intersex male, present in a traditionally masculine leaning way (in ways that you can decide) and accept male social roles then you are gender conforming. My point is that it has to do with gender characteristics and not sex characteristics. Besides most klinefelters males are still visibly male.

Because frankly, I do not believe putting on a comical accent and being "submissive in bed" is "feminine."

If by comical accent you mean the 'stereotypical' gay accent then I don't believe anyone is putting that up on purpose.

And true, those things are not 'feminine', but rather they are traditionally unmasculine and that equals gender nonconformity. And rather than submissivity in bed a way better example would be a way of dressing, presentation etc.

homosexual transsexuals are NOT gender non conforming

When they are already socially transitioned then I agree with you. But pre transition they (usually) are gender nonconforming.

[–]OPPRESSED_REPTILIANIntersex male | GNC | Don't call me "a gay", "twink" or "queen" 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

If you are an intersex male, present in a traditionally masculine leaning way (in ways that you can decide) and accept male social roles then you are gender conforming. My point is that it has to do with gender characteristics and not sex characteristics. Besides most klinefelters males are still visibly male.

Er, not really? I mean, it depends on the individual, my disorder is more visually severe than many, but I don't think you can be gender conforming if you're like me. You can try, but even if I dressed and acted as "macho" as possible I'd literally just look like a drag king, and I would be outcasted more than if I was openly androgynous.

Gender is a complex thing and it's inherently tied to sex - A man who chooses not to be 100% macho isn't "gender non conforming" just because he occasionally cooks for his girlfriend, for example. We have to draw a line somewhere or else "GNC" has no meaning and everyone falls under that category.

If by comical accent you mean the 'stereotypical' gay accent then I don't believe anyone is putting that up on purpose.

Lol they absolutely are... nobody comes out born saying "yaaaas gurl slay" nor is taught by their family to do so. It's a weird subculture thing, similar to how furries might try to mimic animal noises 'cause all their friends do it. A terrible falsetto/attempt at sounding like a woman is also not anything but artificially forced. And is not actually feminine, either.

When they are already socially transitioned then I agree with you. But pre transition they (usually) are gender nonconforming.

Transition is irrelevant. It doesn't change sex, and isn't anything other than cosmetic surgery and irresponsible hormone dosing. It definitely doesn't change their gender conformity status, either. A man who tries to be a stereotypical housewife is not "gender non conforming" and doesn't suddenly cease to be when he gets silicone breast implants. He's still gender conforming, just to the opposite gender role.

To put it another way (and at the risk of sounding overdramatic and pretentious) I see being GNC as active act of defiance. Meaning, someone who, deliberately or otherwise, goes against society's percieved roles of gender. NOT going to the OTHER role, not conforming to the other role because they've been told they don't fit in their original one. A gay man who tries his best to "act like a (stereotypical) woman" because he's gay and thinks that he needs to be subservient and docile to men because he's attracted to them is NOT defying society's rigid, oppressive gender norms. He's actively conforming to, and perpetuating them.

[–]CleverNickName 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

It's pretty much my biggest concern about gender-ideology: the erasure of a generation or two of progress towards the dismantling of harmful stereotypes. I agree with some of the others that homosexuality itself is gender non-comformity, because the expectation is that if you're normal you're straight.

It's important not to attach all new stereotypes to gender-non-comformity. It can quickly devolve into more prescriptiveness (is that a word? it is now). A lot of GNCity is unrecognized because everybody looks for the large blinking neon sign of "girl into cars" and "boy hates sports", when a lot of people actually try ther hardest to break free of gender-norms every day - especially women, as their norms are brutal and pervasive.

On the flipside, there is very little encouragement among men to break masculinity-stereotypes, and often little to no reason. This is also super damaging and has been made worse by gender ideology. Of course, male gender norms don't just hurt the men, as harm to women is often explained away as "that's just what men do/are like". Ultimately, the combination is a round-about way of saying "all gender norms are harmful to everyone". If enforced. It's not like nurturing women and mechanically minded men are harmful by existing. It's always about what men and women "can't" do. Aren't allowed to. Are punished for if they do. Speaking out, being openly and honestly different, loving the same sex, or even the "wrong" examples of the opposite one.

I don't know, this might not be very insightful, it's certainly not new, but that's partly the point: It's what I've been learning for the past 20 years, and it's come all crashing down around me with all the trans-nonsense, and I feel it all needs to be said again, and more often again, and everywhere (which I'm not doing, I know). Why do I have to say it here "in secret", among people who have already stated they generally agree (I may have phrased a few things badly, I'm not good at this)? I don't know where I can say it in real life, it would 100% get me banned from reddit, and I don't know if I'd get "likes" or death threats for it on twitter.

I'm not a perfect person by far, but at least I'm not a raging caricature of what the 1950's think a manly man should look and behave like.

[–]BiHorror 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

No thanks...