Suddenly it’s like their lesbianism never existed :(

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[–]MarkTwainiac 14 insightful - 4 fun14 insightful - 3 fun15 insightful - 4 fun -  (20 children)

Sorry, I don't think it's fair to characterize Ellen page as the

last famous young lesbian

Or to say

There were no other young famous lesbian out there

What about Kate McKinnon, Kristen Stewart, Cara Delevingne? They are young and famous with big Hollywood careers.

And why does a famous lesbian have to be "young" to be seen by young lesbians as worth paying attention to and looking up to? Do Clea Duvall, Kate Moennig, Sarah Paulson and Ellen Degeneres not count as admirable and as role model material for younger lesbians coz at over 40 they're too old? Are the uber-successful star Lily Tomlin and veteran actor Holland Taylor automatically excluded from being considered brave and potential idols coz Tomlin is 81 and Holland is 77? This sounds very ageist to me. And self-defeating, coz people who look for icons and idols only amongst people close to their own age are bound to find they've limited the pool to very slim pickings.

Also, is it only Hollywood actresses who can count as role models for young lesbians these days? At age 39 and with a massive worldwide fan base, the musician LP (Laura Pergolizzi) strikes me as both young and famous - so how can anyone say that there are/were "no other young famous lesbians out there" except for El Page? This video of LP's has nearly 650 million views, & it's only one of many of her videos that have gotten hundreds of millions of views, putting her in Lady Gaga territory. I'd say that makes LP as famous as El Page, perhaps more so. https://youtu.be/wDjeBNv6ip0

Hollywood and the entertainment industry have changed enormously since the days when gay male stars like Rock Hudson, Montgomery Clift, Tab Hunter, George Hamilton and Liberace had to pretend they weren't gay. The entertainment world is still far more hospitable to gay men than it is to lesbians - just as the rest of the world is. But it's certainly a far cry from how it was was when Tomlin, Holland Taylor and Degeneres were coming up.

Also, if younger people feel their role models and idols all must be famous and from the entertainment world, why not cast the net wider than just the acting profession?

Lesley Gore was 16 when she became an international superstar with her hit "It's My Party" in 1963, and 17 when she recorded the feminist anthem "You Don't Own Me" in 1964. https://youtu.be/JDUjeR01wnU

Hildegarde Loretta Sell, known worldwide in the 20th century as "Hildegarde the Incomparable," was in her early 20s when she became a international recording, short film & radio star as well as the biggest supper club sensation of the 20th century. https://youtu.be/rX3mXhnzyFE

Those two pioneering lesbian popular entertainers - and many other women like Janis Ian, Joan Armatrading, KD Laing, Melissa Etheridge, Tracy Chapman - were/are just as "brave," famous and admirable as El Page, and they like all of us once were young women too. So why can't they be role models and idols for young lesbians today?

And what about all the other fields to choose from? Why not choose as icons/idols lesbian writers like Gertrude Stein, Rita Mae Brown, Jeanette Winterston? Or an athlete and activist like Martina Navratilova?

[–]oofreesouloo 19 insightful - 1 fun19 insightful - 0 fun20 insightful - 1 fun -  (12 children)

Neither Kristen Stewart or Cara Delevigne are lesbians. They're both bi/pan/fluid/whatever.

[–]MarkTwainiac 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (11 children)

Thanks for the clarification. I looked up everyone I named to make sure, but I guess I am confused by the new standards. In my view, actions speak louder than words, so women who exclusively date other women (in adulthood - dalliances in youth don't count) are lesbians, whether or not they "identify as" or publicly come out and announce to the world they are lesbians. The behavior is the defining characteristic, not the adoption of the label. This seems especially the case for women in entertainment, where there's so much pressure to carefully manage one's public image and try to manipulate/control public perception. It's like Liberace - he publicly denied he was gay his whole life, even winning a major libel suit against a British tabloid for suggesting he was gay. And for years he claimed he was engaged to marry Sonja Henie. But no matter what Liberace said, and no matter how often he was seen out on the town, in publicity photos or in films with women on his arm or in his arms, the man was still 100% gay.

[–]oofreesouloo 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (10 children)

women who exclusively date other women are lesbians

Not necessarily. By that logic, a woman who dates no one is asexual (which may or not be the case). By that logic, a bisexual woman who only chooses to date men is straight. By that logic, a male exclusively attracted to males who only dates women out of pressure of a homophobic society is straight. He can lie to himself and to everyone, but in the end he's gay and that is the only truth, because sexual orientation is defined by who you're attracted to, not who you date.

Sorry, but that's just not how it works and you're just as bad as TRAs redefining homosexuality. Let us lesbians be jeez. I really don't understand what's up with people nowadays constantly wanting to redefine lesbianism to include males. It doesn't. Ever. And you're not being only lesbophobic, but also biphobic.

[–]grixit 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Sexual orientation is about what sexes you are attracted to, whether or not you act on it.

[–]oofreesouloo 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Exactly!!

[–]MarkTwainiac 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

I take your point. Apologies for the misrepresentation. I've previously used the correct definition.

What I'm confused about - and thrown by - is the fashionable new idea that those who publicly deny their sexual orientation, or try to hide it with the new identity labels now in vogue such as "fluid" and "queer," or pretend to have an entirely different orientation, are not actually the orientation they in fact are coz "we have to believe people are who they say they are."

According to identity politics today, the only thing that counts is not who one actually is attracted to, who one dates or beds, or what sex one is - but how one labels oneself or "identifies." The identity crowd says the reality of people's feelings and attractions, their actual behaviors, nor their biological sex actually matter - all that matters are the labels that people choose to slap on themselves.

Along with this, there seems to be a new corresponding belief among young people today that no one is gay, bi, straight, trans or whatever until they publicly announce it on social media - or if they're a public figure like Sam Smith, Eddie Izzard or Kevin Spacey, until they issue a press release or reveal it in a media appearance. According to the new thinking, it's unseemly to speculate about or make any assumptions about another person's sexuality based on their behaviors until they tell us with words what their sexuality is - just the way as it's unseemly to assume a person' sex until they tell us "how they identify." Therefore, it's wrong to consider Liberace gay coz he publicly denied it all his life - and his attorneys and estate continued to do so after his death.

So now we have straight men calling themselves women and lesbians, and lesbians claiming to be men and straight men to boot. And a whole lot of straight people are calling themselves "queer" so they can pretend to be part of the "LGBTQ." At the same time, many lesbians are trying to dissociate themselves from being lesbians by calling themselves "fluid," bi, pan, saying they don't like labels, avoiding the convo altogether, or saying their pronouns are now "he/him" or "they/them."

BTW, I wouldn't assume someone who dates no one is asexual. Lots of people of all sexualities don't date for all sorts of reasons. That's called celibacy, not asexuality.

Again, my apologies for my poor choice of words.

But as to you saying

you're just as bad as TRAs...And you're not being only lesbophobic, but also biphobic.

Hurling ridiculous, baseless ad hominems and accusations of "phobia" don't make for convincing arguments.

[–]VioletRemi 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

There are febfems - female exclusive bisexual females. This still not making them lesbians.

Even if bisexual woman is dating only women, she is still bisexual and not representing lesbians, as she still finds men attractive and can be aroused by men, can talk about dating men or liking PiV sex. That is not good role models or example for young lesbians, as because of many bisexual women, who are calling themselves lesbians and because of lesbophobia with "lesbian sex is not real sex, you are virgin until you try penis" and who are dating and sleeping with women to be "virgins" before the find "right man" - many men thinking that they can be "the right dick" for us and we will start dating or loving them, like other "lesbians" did. That is why actual lesbian is needed to look for.

gender identity politics

According to their ideology, we are attracted not to females, but to femininity. So "feminine" transwomen, drag queens and "feminine" men are in our dating pool. They are completely forgetting that butch lesbians is a thing when saying this. But when transwoman is making 0 effort to pass and looking like a regular man with beard, they are remembering butch lesbians and calling themselves like that - aka "you are liking butch lesbians, and I am butch trans-lesbian".

[–]oofreesouloo 6 insightful - 2 fun6 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Thank you so much. Almost no one actually respects us, lesbians, even the ones who try to fight for women's rights don't respect us.

[–]oofreesouloo 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

According to identity politics today, the only thing that counts is not who one actually is attracted to, who one dates or beds, or what sex one is - but how one labels oneself or "identifies."

Exactly and that's why subs like LGBDropTheT exist because we're strongly against that very idea.

BTW, I wouldn't assume someone who dates no one is asexual. Lots of people of all sexualities don't date for all sorts of reasons. That's called celibacy, not asexuality.

So why do you use here a certain logic but with lesbianism you use a different logic? You lack consistency. If a bisexual women decides for a certain period of time (because it doesn't need to be forever) not to date men, for example, she would be "celibate" in a way in what regards to relationships of the opposite sex. She chose not to date opposite sex members, but it doesn't mean she suddenly lesbian.

At the same time, many lesbians are trying to dissociate themselves from being lesbians by calling themselves "fluid," bi, pan, saying they don't like labels, avoiding the convo altogether, or saying their pronouns are now "he/him" or "they/them."

This is unfortunately true. But guess what? Even if this is the case with Kristen Stewart or Cara Delevingne, a self-hating lesbian is no role model for young lesbians, sorry. A self-hating lesbian who is uncapable to say she's a lesbian is no role model. And we can assume things sure, but we can never be 100% whether they're lesbian or not. And the fact is neither of them came out as lesbians. So yes, Ellen Page was one of the few people we can was a lesbian role model. Apart from her (and a few other names like Ellen Degeneres and Portia de Rossi), we lack lesbian visibility a lot.

Hurling ridiculous, baseless ad hominems and accusations of "phobia" don't make for convincing arguments.

I've explained why I called you that in comments and I maintain my words. And I keep on explaining. Just own it that you were lesbophobic and biphobic.

Anyway, I've said it all so far. No further interest keeping this conversation, honestly. I'm fed up of these type of long answers trying to convince people that lesbianism isn't just exclusively attracted to females. I'm out. Have a nice day

[–]MezozoicGay 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Exactly and that's why subs like LGBDropTheT exist because we're strongly against that very idea.

It is not what we are strongly against, it is not what we are. Homosexuality is not a choice, not a performance and not what you are showing, it is just exclusive attraction to people of same sex as you are. Nothing less, nothing more.

[–]oofreesouloo 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Yes, you put it into words much better than I did. Thank you.

[–]kahkahtesstess 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Huh? How is she being lesbophobic or biphobic? I think you're misunderstanding her message completely and then jumping to whateverphobia as a conclusion.

[–]oofreesouloo 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Biphobia:

  • Just because a bisexual woman is exclusively in a homosexual relationships doesn't mean she's suddenly lesbian.

  • Just because a bisexual woman is exclusively in straight relationships doesn't mean she's suddenly straight.

Lesbophobia:

  • A lesbian is a homosexual female, meaning no attraction to males. If you start saying that bisexual women can be lesbians, you're promoting the idea that lesbians do have attraction towards males and simply hadn't found the right d*ck. Our sexual orientation isn't still respected by society because of people like the person I was responding to or TRAs who keep politicizing our sexuality and don't leave us alone.

Is that clear now?

If you still say you don't understand, then you're just playing dumb at this point and do not want to understand and simply show disrespect towards lesbians and bi women.

[–]yousaythosethings 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Sarah Paulson calls women/lesbians TERFs. Hardly a role model. I don’t think Tracy Chapman has officially come out of the closet so even she doesn’t want to be a lesbian role model. It’s also already been pointed out that some others you mentioned are not lesbians.

[–]MarkTwainiac 5 insightful - 4 fun5 insightful - 3 fun6 insightful - 4 fun -  (2 children)

El Page called women TERFs when she was still calling herself a lesbian, but it seems she only stopped being a lesbian icon and role model recently after she announced she's "trans." If calling women TERFs didn't disqualify Page from being a role model, how come it disqualifies Paulson? Not a rhetorical question. I'm legitimately interested in knowing what explains the double standard.

https://www.gaytimes.co.uk/originals/ellen-page-on-why-she-isnt-here-for-your-anti-lgbtq-religious-bullsht/

BTW, I think both women stink for calling other women TERFs and drinking the trans kool-aid, but I don't get why Page was allowed to use the T slur - and also permitted to say a lot of other awful stuff, like calling people who doubted Jussie Smollet's story racists and homophobes - without having her "lesbian idol" status tarnished.

Re Tracy Chapman: the key is what is meant by "officially" coming out. Chapman is someone who grew up before the era of social media, and is a private person. Prior to social media, coming out meant telling your friends, family and perhaps work colleagues and some neighbors you were especially close to. Some celebs have might come out in a press interview, but many kept their personal lives more private. In the absence of FB, Instagram, Twitter, YouTube, nobody took out notices in newspapers, bought radio or TV time to tell the world, sent mass mailings, posted "guess what, I'm gay!" announcements on bulletin boards at work or school.

[–]yousaythosethings 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Two things: I have been calling out Ellen Page for a while on her anti-women and anti-lesbian actions so she hasn’t been a role model to me personally in recent times. For example when she contributed to getting a lesbian bad in Japan shut down. I’m giving you my perspective on who is available as a role model and Ellen was not a role model to me until Elliot happened. I knew about the stuff with Page before the stuff with Sarah. I can’t respect the celesbians who betray women and lesbians in that way.

Second, I’m a fan of Tracy Chapman and her music but I think she’s made it pretty clear she doesn’t want to address her sexual orientation even though she was outed by ex-girlfriends. We can obviously look up to her but you must admit that it’s odd to have to rely on a lesbian role model who hasn’t admitted to being a lesbian and doesn’t talk about it. She could be bisexual for all we know. Nothing wrong with that but someone being able to communicate and publicize issues that are unique to being a lesbian would be a nice thing to have in a role model.

[–]grixit 4 insightful - 3 fun4 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

Heh. Before the Internet, coming out as gay was a comedy theme, with the protagonist having to approach or phone people one at a time and then being disappointed at the lack of reaction.

[–]VioletRemi 7 insightful - 2 fun7 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 2 fun -  (2 children)

Unlike Paulson, she was out and proud of being lesbian and not afraid of showing up with her girlfriend.

Unlike Stewart and Delevgne she is a lesbian.

Ellen Degeneres sadly is too old for now and she is no longer proud and out everywhere, like she was before. She helped me a lot in my time, tho. I dislike her as a person, but I am grateful to her for being out and proud 20 years ago.

About Pergolizzi I am hearing for the first time, asked around, seems no one know her as well, and finding info that she is lesbian or not is even harder, as she seems to not be out about it at all. And seems she is 52 years old, but saying she is 39, what is pretty weird, but I don't really care about age, for younger lesbians that will matter a lot, tho.

Ellen was a good role model, because she came out loudly and in spite of being casted out of many roles and ruining her career, she said "if it will cost me my career, then be it, I will not be silent", she was proud and was not trying to be very feminine, just casual looking, showing to young lesbians that you can be successful as a lesbian, that you can be proud and out, that it is normal and fine to be like that, that you don't need to be too feminine looking to be respected. Plus she is very short, like me, so she is looking 10 years older than taller women (I am looking like 15-20 years younger, mid 30s, but everyone thinks I am a teen and asking passport when I am buying alcohol). So young lesbians were worshiping her. She started staring in LGB-friendly shows as well and was trying to play lesbians or bisexual women and demanding on making her characters to be lesbians in shows and movies, so we were getting more representation. Having more lesbian characters in movies and TV series, played by a proud lesbian actress - that part was good for us, lesbians in general. Plus she was not one of those, who were "how gay I am", she was just loving women and only women, that's it.

It is really sad that she married on abusive TRA woman (or is she a woman anymore? She was very deep into gender politics, as they are both Canadian, and there this all on insane levels of propaganda, and was saying that her gender is not to disclosure, so most likely it is not "woman", but something else). Fem months after marriage, Ellen stopped being always smiling and happy woman and became very depressed, plus she is close to 35 years, and not "very famous and sexy" women stars at Hollywood are stopping getting any leading roles around this age. SO I suppose she is in abusive relationship, as it made her depressed, many speculating that it is her TRA wife who forced her to came out as "not a woman" (she not came out as a man, just "he/they, anything but a woman").

why must be young

For teen girls (especially gnc lesbians) it always matters, because they are all rebelly and anti-grown ups, so yeah.

[–]MarkTwainiac 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Ellen Degeneres sadly is too old for now

Wow, ageism really is the one prejudice that's not only still acceptable, but is seen as defensible.

About Pergolizzi I am hearing for the first time, asked around, seems no one know her as well, and finding info that she is lesbian or not is even harder, as she seems to not be out about it at all. And seems she is 52 years old, but saying she is 39, what is pretty weird, but I don't really care about age, for younger lesbians that will matter a lot, tho.

LP is definitely not 52.

For teen girls (especially gnc lesbians) it (age) always matters, because they are all rebelly and anti-grown ups, so yeah.

I don't get this. Many teen girls - lesbians or not - throughout history have admired, seen as idols and used as role models women many, many decades older. And many women who died centuries before too.

[–]VioletRemi 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I don't get this. Many teen girls - lesbians or not - throughout history have admired, seen as idols and used as role models women many, many decades older. And many women who died centuries before too.

Many, me included, - yes; but majority - no.

Plus Elen Degeneres is only appearing in scandals later years, so only known for them.