Ellen Page is claiming to be transgender. What is going on?!

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[–]MarkTwainiac 33 insightful - 1 fun33 insightful - 0 fun34 insightful - 1 fun -  (21 children)

She always struck me as a young woman who looked and sounded pretty much like a zillion other women of all sexual orientations. Beyond her being an out lesbian, for which I wholeheartedly supported her, there was nothing that ever seemed particularly "gender non-conforming" about her look or affect that I noticed. But then I'm of the Annie Lennox generation, so I confess I don't really get all this current hyper-focus on gender presentation.

[–]Sistersovermisters 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (18 children)

I don't know, maybe as a personal experience and how I viewed her, she was definitely not very feminine by my standards, or in my family (when they would watch movies with her, they would comment on it often). And I totally understand where you are coming from with the Annie Lennox generation! I really wish it wasn't a big deal.....I really do.

Like, to me, it felt as if Ellen Paige wasn't making it a huge deal, which made me feel great for just dressing however and it not being a big deal at all. I think I've been essentially nudged into being concerned about gender presentation due to familial standards and whatnot. When in all-honesty, I just wanted to normalize just being comfortable with myself. (Edited a small detail on my original comment, hopefully that helps a little!)

[–]MarkTwainiac 14 insightful - 1 fun14 insightful - 0 fun15 insightful - 1 fun -  (12 children)

It wasn't your comment I was taking issue with. Not at all. I was responding to the other poster who asked if Page really was "gender non-conforming" (whatever that's supposed to mean). She always came off to me like many other girls or women, not particularly fussed with appearance and not concerned with constantly thinking in terms of "feminine" and "masculine."

Edit: sistersovermisters, see my post below. I just did an image search of Page. I think you'd find it worthwhile do the same. Neither in the past or now has Page ever been in the habit of "presenting" in a way that is at all extraordinary for women in North America outside of a few relatively rare fundamentalist religious communities (Hasidic Jews, the Amish, some strict Mormons). In Saudi Arabia, Iran or Pakistan, yes Page might stand out as different in appearance on the streets/in public - but in the vast majority of NA, as well as in Europe and Australia and New Zealand, no.

[–]just_lesbian_things 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

who asked if Page really was "gender non-conforming" (whatever that's supposed to mean)

It means I don't see how she is notably gender non-conforming. Like you said, she looks like a fairly "stereotypical" woman, and a fairly attractive one at that, being an actress and all.

[–]MarkTwainiac 15 insightful - 1 fun15 insightful - 0 fun16 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

Right, after sistersovermisters responded to my post, I did an image search of Page. She looks quite "gender conforming" in tons of photos - long hair, makeup, dresses, short skirts, etc. Part of that is her profession, of course.

But the most recent photos of her show her wearing black skinny jeans, oversize shirt, flat-soled boots, very long hair, a baseball type hat and sunglasses. Nothing unusual or at all edgy or outré about her look. I've dressed like that for decades, only with very short hair (sometimes no hair), and no one every called me "gender non-conforming" for it, nor did they question my sex.

[–]just_lesbian_things 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Nobody seems to be able to explain how Ellen Page is "gender non-conforming". That's why I ask.

[–]MarkTwainiac 18 insightful - 1 fun18 insightful - 0 fun19 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Yes, I know. Not only is she totally ordinary, but the whole concept of "gender non-conforming" is fuzzy and vague. It seems entirely in the eye of the beholder. And a problem is, calling someone "gender non-conforming" means embracing a strict, binary idea of "gender" and "gender presentation" in the first place.

[–]emptiedriver 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

yeah, to me "gender non-conforming" was the broad phrase for butch women and drag queen type men - people who barely exist anymore because they're usually considered to be trans now. I dated a woman years ago who used to be considered soft butch - who always got her hair cut at the local barber shop, usually a 2 in the back and 5 on top, wore mostly men's clothes but would check the women's sections in certain stores for nicer cuts back when everything wasn't insanely tight, liked to wear docs but had a big collection of different style boots and some lower cut shoes (but all comfortable), liked big dogs, beer, barbecues, hanging out at bars and watching football.. She was always a woman and there was a lot more to her of course but the first impression a person would get would fit into a more stereotypical notion of lesbian, the kind that men aren't fantasizing about. I would probably call her GNC now since "butch" seems to have gone by the wayside.

I don't think talking about gender means you are embracing a strict idea of gender presentation, and certainly not of gender identity. You could conceivably have a world where everyone recognizes their biological sex, and then plays with their gender presentation as they see fit, while still having a notion of "butch" and "femme" as extremes, with a lot of us being more in the middle. Some women are really femme and some are really butch, and same with men, but a lot are just kinda, regular folk...

But more important, you can recognize that that's just personality traits and behavior - it's not an inner soul that erases your material reality, it can change over time without you needing to announce anything or change your name, it doesn't make you a man or a woman, and it doesn't happen because you say so. If you want to cut your hair or buy more boots, good for you, have at it. People might start thinking of you as more butch, they might not, but do what feels right to you and don't worry about it. But don't tell them how to think of you - be the way you want to be and let them respond.

[–]just_lesbian_things 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

It's subjective to an extent, but there's social norms and I think there's observable deviation from said social norms. A lot of clothes, for example, are gendered. I also think it's possible to acknowledge the existence of gender and gender norms (and deviation from said norms) without embracing it. After all, you can't call for the abolition of something that doesn't exist.

[–]CuntWorshiper 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

No one can explain it because she wasn’t gender non-conforming she simply wasn’t a living Barbiedoll. Besides not being GNC she’s also not a lesbian. I find it hard to believe you’ll get people to understand that in the political ”lesbians” nest but whatever.

[–]slushpilot 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

She certainly doesn't go out of her way to look butch if that's what you mean—which is what I would expect from someone with gender identity issues trying to look the part.

I was wondering about the baseball cap myself: it's quite a convenient way to hide long hair... Other women like Sinéad O'Connor, Sigourney Weaver, and Britney Spears had the confidence to wear a short buzz cut—and yet still call themselves women.

I guess I'm curious to see what Page's gender performance will look like, or if she'll continue looking the same as she always has but then expect everyone to pretend she's a man. I don't know. I just can't take this very seriously.

[–]Sistersovermisters 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

I totally agree with what MarkTwainiac said about her not really concerned with constantly thinking in the "feminine" and "masculine" terms. I haven't really involved myself with GC discussion since the subreddit was removed, so I appreciate seeing more properly word/descriptors of what I am trying to get across! I am also learning still about the gender discussion, so what I may say could be misinformed or built on misinterpretation. I am a lurker at heart, I do apologize!

[–]MarkTwainiac 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I do apologize!

Sisterovermisters, please don't apologize! You have nothing to apologize for.

We're discussing ideas here, and since language shapes ideas (and vice a versa), some of us also challenge the terminology that is often used. But that doesn't mean anyone is casting personal aspersions on anyone else.

Please post more. It makes the sub much livelier. When pain-in-the-ass, know-it-all posters with a longer historical perspective like me challenge you, please don't take it as a scolding or an attack. I express myself forthrightly, but I try to do so without ever demeaning the posters I'm responding to. If I ever come across as rude or dismissive, tell me so I can consider what I've said and make corrections if needed. I won't bite your head off or call you names. Promise. But perhaps I will be the one issuing apologies.

On this sub, most of the poster are all on the same side, which is the side of civility and free speech and questioning today's crazy gender ideology. But a lot of us still have have plenty of disagreements about various topics.

BTW, there is nothing wrong with be a learner. We're all learning! I'm old and I still learn new stuff every day. Learning is one of the things that IMO makes life worth living. And no one here will tell you to go "educate yourself" LOL.

Best wishes. And please do post more.

[–]Sistersovermisters 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Oh, no, I completely understand! I am trying to get over apologizing to others when I feel like I've stepped on some toes, but this actually feels great to be prodded to try to think more about what I want to say! I really do appreciate that. Failing and learning is probably one of the best things a person can do, and I'm really open to accepting humility and gaining experience from experienced posters!

Thank you for your kind words, and best wishes to you as well. I'll try to post and gain that confidence!

[–]MarkTwainiac 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

The urge to say "I'm sorry" all the time comes from the ways females are socialized from infancy. You can get over it, though it will take vigilance and effort. But it's within your power to pull off. Give yourself time.

BTW, you didn't step on anyone's toes here. Not even close. You simply made a point that seemed vague and was unsubstantiated; as a result others didn't understand and wanted you to clarify what you meant. No big deal.

Also, even if you had stepped on someone's toes - so what! Stepping on someone's toes is not like running somebody over in car, or dropping a safe or ton of bricks on them from several stories up like happens in cartoons.

Making unclear, unsubstantiated points on the internet is not a crime. Billions of people do it every day. Be kind to yourself.

[–]just_lesbian_things 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

she was definitely not very feminine by my standards

How so? What's not feminine about her? I'm genuinely curious.

[–]Sistersovermisters 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I am so tired, I honestly don't know exactly what to say. She just never stood out as someone who was feminine to me. Obviously, she portrayed a very feminine (or should I say, woman-dependent role due to the case of the pregnancy situation) role in Juno, and along side that, was able to provide other female leads. So it's not to say she wasn't feminine at all. I guess she stood out to me as part of the GNC crowd, or really a part of the concerned about appearance crowd, until this happened.

[–]just_lesbian_things 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I guess she stood out to me as part of the GNC crowd, or really a part of the concerned about appearance crowd

You haven't said why you view her as part of the GNC crowd, though. Your entire comment was talking about how she actually plays fairly feminine characters.

I don't characterize anyone who works in entertainment, least of all those in who stand in front of the camera, as unconcerned about appearances. I think it comes with the job.

[–]Sistersovermisters 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I guess, if I can try to word this any better (since it seems I'm not wording things right at all), I've seen a few con panels and interviews, along with a few social media posts, and that is probably how she came across as GNC to me. I might have seen just enough appearances outside of movies to have that kind of perception about how she was in terms of gender non-conformity. I believe the part of where I felt she was more GNC-learning was how she carried herself a certain way, I don't really know how else to describe it beyond her not being incredibly concerned about looks or presenting around people.

I hope this elaboration helps a little more.

[–]cinnaflo 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

The fact that she’s almost always wearing suits, ties, and non-heeled shoes to formal events? Her clothes are loose fitting or men’s cut, in neutral colors with little to no decoration. You never see her in dresses or skirts nowadays, and the ones where she is, are a decade old or more. And even during those times, she styled very plainly, her makeup and hair too, unlike other celebrities who went out of their way to look glamorous, in sparkles and florals. She’s stated before that she didn’t like the pressure of having to wear dresses and heels because it was uncomfortable: https://www.net-a-porter.com/en-us/porter/article-df6d9638b4b2c137/cover-stories/cover-stories/ellen-page . We’re talking about Hollywood and straight male media here, presentation matters, being open about being a gay woman matters, and her refusal to change those parts of herself gives more weight than some random everyday woman. (Until now of course).

[–]bopomofodojo 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

She was only "gender non-conforming" by the most absurd standards of TiM hyperfemininity. She was just a normal woman. Not particularly "boyish", not hyperfeminine, not vying to be a sex symbol. Just a normal woman who acts. A goddamn shame.

[–]MarkTwainiac 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Yup.