"Cardi B & Megan Thee Stallion: WAP" confusion - please help your fellow radfem to understand!

submitted by vitunrotta from self.GenderCritical

So - the Cardi B & Megan Thee Stallion collaboration WAP is out and boy do I have QUESTIONS. I haven't seen the video because I don't want to, but I did check the lyrics and... Well.

First off: this song is widely praised in the libfem circles because it is so empowering. I think it was The Guardian itself that noted this song is literal praise for vaginas and the magic of their self-lubricating abilities. It's an ode to women all over the world! The song starts with these very liberating and feminist words:

"Whores in this house There's some whores in this house"

And further on, there are e.g. these actual gems of songwriting and emancipation:

"I wanna gag, I wanna choke I want you to touch that lil' dangly thing that swing in the back of my throat"

"Your honor, I'm a freak bitch, handcuffs, leashes Switch my wig, make him feel like he cheatin' Put him on his knees, give him somethin' to believe in Never lost a fight, but I'm lookin' for a beatin'"

There's much talk about the wet ass pussy as well, of course. Now here are my questions.

1) This is liberating for libfems and I have seen people on the internet mock anyone who may think that it does NOT convey a positive message at all; basically anyone who dares to dislike the "message" of this bop is a pearl-clutching, woman-hating republican. How is "lookin' for a beatin'" feminist? Are women supposed to want to get punched in the face while having sex? Does everyone now need to like choking also, and what if you don't? Does that automatically make one a lesser feminist? What if a woman has past trauma due to e.g. domestic violence and thus is very uncomfortable with such acts? Are they less women/bad feminists because of their vanilla preferences?

2) WAP is supposedly graciously telling us of the magical female genitalia and how amazing it is that it can self-lubricate. Is this not transphobic? How can you openly say it's a song about WOMEN (I haven't even seen the word cis when people glorify this song btw) and their VAGINAS and thus dismiss the transpeople? Is this not literal violence against them, as we all know they suffer immensely because they - even after bottom surgeries - will never have a wet ass pussy (far less, real self lubrication)?

3) How are you able to defend this openly transphobic song as a liberal feminist, thus causing immeasurable trauma to transpeople? Is it liberating or is it transphobic? It cannot be both, so which one is it? Or is there an intellectual conflict here, perhaps?

4) As a radfem, HOW CAN THIS TRITE BE CONSIDERED ANYTHING FEMINIST by ANYONE? In my nearly 40 years I have not come across such misogynist, sexist horseshit - at least from another woman's mouth.

I never liked Cardi B but this is a new low even from her. Sure, own your woman's body and pussy and whatever. Good on you. This song is honestly nasty and super antifeminist and anyone trying to convince me it's not... No need to try, I am ready to die on this hill.

Anyway, just interested about the supposed message this song is conveying and the possibility that it is also extremely transphobic. I am curious to understand how libfems and/or TRA's would ever be able to defend this song. Has there been any backlash against the lyrics by TRA's or does it tick enough boxes of liberal pseudo feminism (choking, spitting, beating during sex etc.) so that it gets a pass?

Edited grammar.

all 40 comments
sorted by:
top
newinsightfulfun

[–]moody_ape 42 insightful - 2 fun42 insightful - 1 fun43 insightful - 2 fun -  (8 children)

as long os it is degrading to women, transphobia is forgiven by libfem.

[–]MarkTwainiac 27 insightful - 1 fun27 insightful - 0 fun28 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I've never actually heard TRAs claim that females should stop talking about the female body.

Maybe you haven't been paying attention, or you've come to this issue only recently. In 2014, actress Martha Plimpton was widely criticized as "transphobic" by genderists after Plimpton tweeted about vaginas as part of a campaign to bring attention to an upcoming benefit to raise funds for abortion rights. According to a report in The Nation:

When Plimpton insisted that she would continue to say “vagina,” her feed filled up with indignation. “So you’re really committed to doubling down on using a term that you’ve been told many times is exclusionary & harmful?”

Since at least 2015, college campuses across the US have stopped putting on performances of Eve' Ensler's "Vagina Monologues" because associating female anatomy with being female is transphobic:

https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2015/01/21/womens-college-cancels-play-saying-it-excludes-transgender-experiences

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jan/16/vagina-monologues-eve-ensler-rejects-mount-holyoke-college-claims-reductionist-exclusive

If you look online, you can find blogs from so-called "feminist" campus orgs arguing that the "Vagina Monologues" "need queering" and are exclusionary of trans people that go back as early as 2012.

In the run-up to the Women's March in 2018, prominent TIM GIT (gender ideology tyrant) from the UK Munroe Bergdorf tweeted this to explain why in his opinion women shouldn't wear pussy hats or mention matters like abortion access, reproductive rights & health, pregnancy & maternity discrimination, women's experiences of giving birth, high rates of maternal mortality and childbirth injuries, period shaming, menopause, etc:

"Centering reproductive systems at the heart of these demonstrations is reductive and exclusionary...Not all women have reproductive systems, not all women have a vagina, not all women's vagina's are pink. Think about your message, use your voice for ALL women. Not just yourself.

[–]Shesstealthy 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

"Need queering"? I've never seen or read it but I was pretty sure it included lesbian voices.

[–][deleted] 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

They really mean TQ, not lesbians. Lesbians don't matter unless they're transbians /s

[–]Moirawr 22 insightful - 1 fun22 insightful - 0 fun23 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

They say it’s a woman’s sexuality but I just hear male sexuality in it, same as that S&M song by Rihanna a while back. The whole Ben Shapiro response was funny, I hadn’t heard of the song til I saw a meme about his tweet. A crowd who might be willing to criticize it is swayed by the fun of jeering. But libfems are still stuck believing “anything a woman does is feminist” even, or maybe especially, if it’s misogynist. Choice feminism doesn’t apply to us but it applies to them, hmm.

[–]vitunrotta[S] 14 insightful - 1 fun14 insightful - 0 fun15 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

“anything a woman does is feminist”

...And there the libfems have erred, so greatly erred. Their first and perhaps worst mistake was to erase the meaning of feminism altogether, so much so that anything a woman does is a feminist act. Doesn't matter what it is: when a woman does it = feminism.

They didn't seem to consider that once you make something mean everything, it actually starts meaning nothing at all. That's liberal feminism for you, basically just some wishy-washy mantras you repeat. Oh, and immediately cancel anyone who doesn't.

[–]saged 17 insightful - 1 fun17 insightful - 0 fun18 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I've actually seen one transwoman getting upset about WAP, when I brought up that transwomen can have "WAP" ( i wasn't being serious) as well I was told there wasn't one trans representation in the video or the lyrics and the song was focused on "cis bodies". Honestly? I think they know either to pretend that WAP implies to them, their neo-vaginas and Girl Dicks, or just shut up. If they fight this fight, they'll have to fight years and years of hip hop/rap not being "trans inclusive" and that would be them basically calling out MEN, mainly men of color. We all know they won't call out men and men won't allow it. At best the female artists will cave and the men? They'll either generically pander, or they'll start saying how they feel about I have seen people call Cardi B transphobic though for other reasons.

I have no idea why the fuck it's empowering or feminist, it's a song about sex, there's PLENTY of songs about sex. I think people are making it that way because there's been push back, so they are going, "it's empowering!!"

to who? There's thousands of songs from male and female artists that are about sex & the focus is women or women's bodies. It's a stupid tacky song, but then again, of COURSE people would want something like this to be seen as "Feminism".

The fact cardi has said things that people felt were "transphobic" is proof, how little libfems truly care about their transwomen anyway.

[–]vitunrotta[S] 11 insightful - 2 fun11 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

A-ha. It's getting truly interesting.

So there is at least some push-back about the message and the video - and how they portray only very CIS women - from the trans people? I understand that one member of the Kardashian/Jenner clan is in the clip, but I don't know who (nor do I care) - yet I thought then: well, why not include the Woman of The Year? Hmh? Why no outrage? Where is the madness now? The vast amount of TiM's are still eerily quiet. So is Caitlyn Jenner and her dry ass pussy. (ツ)_/¯

Also, if the TiM's were about to really go up in arms about this song they will consequently also speak against WOC, which is a super no-go in the U.S. especially. To my understanding there are no dudes in the video (correct me if I'm wrong, I simply refuse to give these fReaKy GurRLs any money by watching it). So if the TRA's would attack this (utter piece of garbage) song, they would HAVE to be labelled as racists, not only sexists. Could they risk it? I dare say, no.

They are very aware of their boundaries when it comes to "speaking about their rights" in the Land of The Free (lol) and there just so happens to be an actual demography that literally has suffered from the lack of freedoms and rights and great achievements in their home country. They know it, we know it, fucking everybody knows it. And also, as has been mentioned: the lovely progressive ladies (/s) in this collab are doing nothing but making womanhood look like it's ALL ABOUT tits, ass and a WET ASS PUSSY. Wow, yeah, that is how I would also define womanhood. Such smart women, so thoughtful, I can see how they are doing this as a favour to all women instead of getting a quick buck by appearing as (and I quote) freak bitches. Groundbreaking. Standing ovation. Wow. So impressive. I'm sure Harvard will have them as guest speakers soon because of their truly outstanding, revolutionary thinking. Yep.

I'm eager to see how the pseudofeminists (and confused, brainwashed girls all over the world) will defend this as well. I want to hear their best, worst, mind-bending, Interstellar-y explanations as to WHY this is actually the truest form of feminism and so on and so on. Meanwhile, the misogynist bullshit that men of any genre - but mostly in rap/hip hop - will not be questioned about their constant bragging about getting that ass, loving those tits and banging whores.

I want to see the libfems not only do some silly mind hoops - they will have to give me an Olympic level nonsense performance now. I shall wait.

crickets

[–]Shesstealthy 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Maybe, like women before them, they need to start recording the songs and making the videos instead of whining and expecting women to do it for them.

[–][deleted] 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I checked out both the video and lyrics for this song. It was exactly what I was expecting. It's just "sex-positive", lib-/fun-fem drivel with the focus on dick and women gyrating in skimpy clothing for male viewing pleasure. My expectations were so low that I was pleasantly surprised that it hints at oral sex (as in a guy going down on a woman). Everything else will not get 90% of women off.

[–]vitunrotta[S] 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I was pleasantly surprised that it hints at oral sex

Heh, yeah. It's kinda like giving men praise for doing the absolute bare minimum and acting like a decent human being. You know, those stories where a guy does something positive (but really just does what anyone should) - say, helps a lost kitten and takes it to a shelter - and oh my god do we have a new king to praise, such a loving person, who would have thought. When your expectations are on the minus side of the spectrum to begin with, any tiny thing in contrast seems like a huge progress.

[–][deleted] 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Unfortunately, I know exactly what you mean. Thankfully men play an absolutely minimal role in my life. I would not even want to live with one.

[–]anxietyaccount8 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

Has there been any backlash against the lyrics by TRAs

I doubt it. Radfems are against the whole BDSM culture, but TRAs definitely aren't. Questioning any kind of kink makes you a bigot, according to them.

Is this not transphobic?

I've never actually heard TRAs claim that females should stop talking about the female body. I wouldn't be surprised if they did in the future. But I haven't seen anybody call it transphobic.

From what I've seen, they don't really have a strong opinion about the song, just "oh, it's a woman singing about sexuality, cool."

[–]Spicylikegumbo 31 insightful - 1 fun31 insightful - 0 fun32 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

"I've never actually heard TRAs claim that females should stop talking about the female body."

That's all they talk about. Women can't refer to their periods, vaginas, ovaries, pregnancies as being part of the female body. Instead we have to be people who bleed and uterus owners and people who birth. If you say any of that is female then you get labeled transphobic.

So OP great points. If they weren't catering to male attention and the song was simply about their ability to lubricate, the trans and libfems would definitely be screaming transphobic. But it's a male centered song in reality so it gets a pass.

[–]vitunrotta[S] 15 insightful - 1 fun15 insightful - 0 fun16 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

If they weren't catering to male attention and the song was simply about their ability to lubricate, the trans and libfems would definitely be screaming transphobic. But it's a male centered song in reality so it gets a pass.

Yeah, this is what I was getting at, just trying to showcase the neverending loopholes liberal feminists have in their so called ideology. The women in the video pornify and objectify themselves to represent the exact idea a lot of TiM's seem to have about women, so suddenly they are dead quiet about the terrible transphobia. It's almost funny at this stage. I would like to discuss this in depth with a proper liberal feminist and see how they try to squirm their way out of this one.

Then again I don't want to send anyone to the hospital, as the mental gymnastics they'd be required to do would inevitably cause them to have a stroke, so better not bring it up I guess.

[–]zephyranthes 23 insightful - 1 fun23 insightful - 0 fun24 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I've never actually heard TRAs claim that females should stop talking about the female body.

Lucky you. There's lots of them out there talking about how menstruation is triggering (at least those who don't steal pads or stuff tampons up their butts) and how tragic it is to never be able to have a miscarriage.

Female TRA Zoe Samudzi's famous "inherent cissexism" tweet is almost five years old.

[–]anxietyaccount8 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

What I meant was that women could talk about female body parts, as long as they didn't label them as such. It looks like it's worse than I thought?

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

sadly wayyy worse than you thought.

[–]radarladal 14 insightful - 1 fun14 insightful - 0 fun15 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I've never actually heard TRAs claim that females should stop talking about the female body.

They do say that, and often. Saying words like vagina, uterus, period, labia are called transphobic all the time especially on social media. Women can’t even talk about their own monthly menstruation without being called transphobic

[–]fuckingsealions 10 insightful - 2 fun10 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

It's just telling women to shut up with extra steps.

[–]Shesstealthy 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

"Gentle reminders". Ugh.

[–]Shesstealthy 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I suspect the "beatin" she's looking for is what used to be referred to as a "good pounding" aka enthusiastic PiV congress.

The rest of these lyrics are bleh.

I have been enjoying a meme going round where some dude says he's never seen a wet-ass pussy and that they are a Democratic hoax.

[–]vitunrotta[S] 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Yeah, I suspect it means a pounding as well, but who's to know nowadays when every other kind of "kink" is basically just some form of violent act towards women. That bit where she sings she wants a guy to shove his dick so far up her throat he'll reach her tonsils is one example. I'm instantly thinking of the countless porn vids where the woman is crying as she's literally choking while being mouthfucked. Ooh, so erotic.

[–]radarladal 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Women are criticized, ostracized and vilified all the time for having sexual desire and showing their sexual desire. I think it originated from there, that women being confident in sexual desire and outspoken about it are subverting the patriarchal notions of what is acceptable for women.

[–]vitunrotta[S] 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I understand this. But the answer should not be to start pandering to the horribly objectifying, sexist ideas men have about women. To do the alternative is much harder, though. I get why many women (myself included to an extent) still stick to so so many learned behaviours and non-behaviours especially about our bodies and sexuality. I also get how to some it may appear you now have freedom when you yourself objectify the very female body you have... Yet I have to say, speaking from experience, it doesn't work and it does nothing but send you back a hundred years with regards to women's rights.

I demand better thinking. I am a nobody, but these people have a gigantic platform and audience - many of them are porn-hungry men who love nothing more than seeing a woman "putting herself where she belongs:" a tits&ass fuck machine who loves nothing more than to be fucked in the mouth so hard they gag. A lot of them are also teenage girls who see this and (having a brain that has not yet fully developed) think it's the ~progressive~ way of being a woman. Bullshit.

Origins matter, and our understanding of the oppressive history of women all over, but it is never an excuse to publish such blatantly misogynist shit. It should be the opposite of WAP and tiddies and butts and fat lips. And if it's news to anyone at this point, women can be misogynists just as well as men. These two are a prime example. It's both saddening and infuriating. They're not freeing themselves of anything, they are putting more shackles on themselves. Sadly, I have seen Cardi B speak a couple of times, and she certainly is not super enlightened nor a feminist. So no surprises there...

[–]X_Act 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

There's also a line about spitting in her mouth...There's a lot of degradation for a song supposedly about female pleasure.

We know what this is. This is the old song and dance we're used to. Women exploiting and objectifying their bodies, calling it "owning sexuality" whenever someone questions it...all for some capital and clout.

Trans activists are opportunist as fuck. So what they're NOT going to do is criticise a popular song that is popular among the young/liberal/POC crowd...because that would be social suicide for them.

They also enjoy female degradation, so it's right up their alley.

Now, if this song was about the power of vaginas and it was sung by a white woman, particularly a middle aged one...we both know what would happen.

[–]sisterinsomnia 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

What is weird about the choking shit is that when I first heard about this niche form of sexuality it was only in the context of men who had died trying to use self-strangulation to enhance their orgasms. Now suddenly it is vanilla sex, desired by a large chunk of all young women? If that is not social contagion I don't know what it is. But it's also dangerous to take something which was niche for very good reasons (it is dangerous) and to advertise it as something every teenage girl might like to try with a boyfriend who knows nothing about anatomy.