Both: How would you define my sexual orientation?

submitted by theytookourjerbs from self.GCdebatesQT

I'm a natal woman attracted to other natal women and ftm transsexuals that are AFAC (Assigned female at conception). The natal women I'm attracted to are mainly gold, platinum or silver star femme (or andro) lesbians and bisexuals that prefer women. Gold star is mainly a joke, but I'd prefer women that have little to no sexual history with the opposite sex. FTM's I'm attracted to are pre-op or non-op ftm femboys. Also have other criteria, but I won't write any longer than this.

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[–]loveSloaneDebate King 14 insightful - 7 fun14 insightful - 6 fun15 insightful - 7 fun -  (3 children)

I'm a natal woman attracted to other natal women and ftm transsexuals that are AFAC (Assigned female at conception).

You’re a lesbian, Harry. (Sorry for the Potter reference)

[–][deleted] 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I really needed a laugh today, Sloane, thank you 😂

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

You’re welcome lol

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 11 insightful - 7 fun11 insightful - 6 fun12 insightful - 7 fun -  (12 children)

QT would probably call you pansexual.

Actually no, despite you using their lingo a lot of them would actually call you transphobic based on your post.

[–]FlippyKingSadly this sub welcomes rape apologists and victim blaming. Bye! 5 insightful - 3 fun5 insightful - 2 fun6 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

You are on a roll! Thanks!

[–]theytookourjerbs[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (10 children)

I only used AFAC instead of AFAB because it actually was appropriated from intersex people, and science can tell our sex when we're fetuses in the mother's womb! Even though intersex are one in five hundred million, I would date one that is XXY because two x chromosomes= biological female.

[–]BiologyIsReal 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Even though intersex are one in five hundred million, I would date one that is XXY because two x chromosomes= biological female.

That is not how it works. The presence of the SRY gen, located in the Y chromosome, is what triggers the male development pathway. Individuals with a 47, XXY karyotype are male.

https://medlineplus.gov/genetics/condition/klinefelter-syndrome/

[–]theytookourjerbs[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

My bad for my ignorance. I thought it was only XYY that was male. Regardless, if the person was intersex, I'd go for only actual adult females.

[–]MarkTwainiac 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I only used AFAC instead of AFAB because it actually was appropriated from intersex people, and science can tell our sex when we're fetuses in the mother's womb!

But human conception when it occurs naturally in a woman's body doesn't take place in the womb. Conception occurs in a Fallopian tube, then the fertilized egg has to travel to the womb and become implanted in the uterine lining.

Moreover, after human conception occurs, several stages of development have to occur before the fertilized egg reaches the stage where it has turned into a fetus. The fetal stage of development doesn't start until 8 weeks after conception.

Also, when conception occurs in the natural way, no one "assigns" the sex. Sex is determined by whether the sperm that fertilizes an egg is X or Y. It's a matter of chance, not an intentional assignment - unless, that is, you believe the sex is decided by a divine being.

Even though intersex are one in five hundred million

What? Your figures are way, way off.

I would date one that is XXY because two x chromosomes= biological female.

No, a Y chromosome or SRY gene usually on the Y = male.

Two X chromosomes is not the only formula that = female. 45, X0 and 47, XXX = female too. There's also a syndrome known as XY female or Swyer's syndrome.

Finally, most DSDs - aka "intersex" conditions - do not involve unusual chromosome patterns like XXY. Most occur in people who have the usual pattern of 46,XX or 46, XY.

My unsolicited advice is that since human conception and what happens afterwards, and DSD conditions, don't seem to be areas you're knowledgable about, best leave them out of the convo altogether. Just say you're a female human exclusively sexually attracted to other female humans - no need to bring conception, embryos, fetuses, DSDs etc into it.

[–]theytookourjerbs[S] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Sorry about my ignorance of the subject, but I've heard intersex conditions are extremely rare. I've also heard about the condition of just one X instead of XX, but otherwise, I normally didn't talk about such conditions since I'm quite ignorant about the subjects. I just pulled a figure out of thin air, but I probably know it's not that extremely rare. There's also quite a lot of things I'm ignorant about, such as College or University educated people will use big words from their College or University reading level vocabulary, while I'm just here only knowing my 11th grade reading level vocabulary (I do know average reading level in both the USA and Canada are 8th grade).

[–]MarkTwainiac 7 insightful - 3 fun7 insightful - 2 fun8 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

Please stop with the faux naiveté. No one has an issue with you being uninformed about DSDs. What I take issue with is your decision to exploit rare medical conditions that other human beings suffer from and struggle with, and you admit you know nothing about, in order to score political points & advance your ideology/POV. I also take issue with you making up statistics about the prevalence of these rare medical conditions out of thin air.

Similarly, no one takes issue with you not knowing much or anything about matters like human conception and human zygote, embryo and fetal development. What I took issue with is you making breezy reference to these topics to justify your use of "AFAC."

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Technically speaking if you have enough money you can choose to intentionally get pregnant with a male or female baby (I read about some famous couple doing this idk anything else about it). Aside from that rarity, nobody, absolutely nobody is assigned a sex. Sex is observed. Even in intersex people they don’t just arbitrarily assign a sex, it’s determined- through observation.

You very clearly heart vagina and only vagina. You don’t have to qualify who or why or what you want or don’t want. You like women. Actual adult human females. All the extra wording is nice of you but what it means is still clear to everyone, GC and QT.

[–]MarkTwainiac 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Technically speaking if you have enough money you can choose to intentionally get pregnant with a male or female baby (I read about some famous couple doing this idk anything else about it)

When fertilization is done outside a woman's body in a lab as in IVF and the zygotes are grown into embryos, the sex can be determined prior to attempted implantation in a woman, or to freezing for future use. That way if you have several embryos, you can choose the sex of the one(s) you attempt to use to become pregnant with. But AFAIK, assigning sex by selecting either an X or Y sperm to fertilize the egg is not yet an available option to persons using assisted repro technology.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I knew you’d come through! Lol thank you

[–]MarkTwainiac 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

You're welcome! I have no idea how I know this stuff. I got pregnant right away the natural way. Never had to deal with or even think about IVF or other assisted reproduction methods. But it seems if you live long enough and pay attention along the way, certain info just sinks in somehow.

[–]theytookourjerbs[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I felt like it was clear, but I don't really like the people that say even with transwomen with SRS even though it's still an inverted penis...

[–]MarkTwainiac 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

A woman who is exclusively attracted to other women is a lesbian. Aka an adult female homosexual or an adult homosexual female.

[–]FlippyKingSadly this sub welcomes rape apologists and victim blaming. Bye! 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Good old fashioned Lesbian, or the newly-coined "super"-lesbian would be my guess, but defining other's sexual orientation is a game for people with too much free time and too much nosiness. It's a sexual orientation, and yours seems to be having none of this gender stuff.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Homosexual. Their sex is the only relevant trait.

[–]worried19 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Since it seems like you have zero attraction to natal males, I'd classify you as a lesbian.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers 4 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

You are either lesbian or bisexual, I will go with whatever term you use to describe your sexual orientation. If you consider yourself a lesbian, you're a lesbian. If you consider yourself bisexual, you're bisexual.

[–]theytookourjerbs[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Well I do consider myself a lesbian or a homosexual, but I do appreciate you respecting who I am.

[–]theytookourjerbs[S] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Thanks everyone! I had a similar situation to another person on plebbit, but considering it's on r/asklgbt, they wanted to say "well pansexual but penisphobic" or something weird like "gynephile". I figured I was a homosexual, but you know how people are these days. I also think you need GID (Gender Identity Disorder) for one to be transsexual, and wow that would not only make me a transphobic TERF, it would also make me like truscum! Ironically, terves and truscum aren't allies.

[–]theytookourjerbs[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

For anyone wondering what was the plebbit, it's https://old.reddit.com/r/AskLGBT/comments/pxqamn/are_there_words_to_describe_attraction_to/

[–][deleted] 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Wow. It's bizarre how convoluted and varying those answers are compared to the simple, direct ones here that are all the same answer (from the GC side anyways--I would agree, too)

[–]theytookourjerbs[S] 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Yeah. I liked how the simple and correct answers was the people that seemed GC, but as well as they didn't remove those answers.

[–]FlippyKingSadly this sub welcomes rape apologists and victim blaming. Bye! 4 insightful - 3 fun4 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

hmmmm ... Maybe next you'll tell us to question Ptolemaic Epicycles or to doubt the tried and true method of determining if someone is a witch: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X2xlQaimsGg

[–]FlanJam 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Kinda funny you posted this right before international lesbian day lol

[–]censorshipment 2 insightful - 4 fun2 insightful - 3 fun3 insightful - 4 fun -  (1 child)

A lesbian with funny sexual preferences.

We have similar preferences, although I'd never actually date/fuck a woman who doesn't identify as a woman. I'd hurt her lil queer feelings by "misgendering" her on purpose lol

I do something similar to my girlfriend. She's a 40+ year old late bloomer, separated from her husband of 15+ years, had never been with a woman before we met this year. She came out as bi years ago but didn't want to have threesomes with her husband's involvement, and he said if she fucked women without him, he'd file for divorce and ask for full custody of their children because she was depressed and suicidal (because he correctively raped and abused her for nearly 2 decades).

Anyway, I call her bi sometimes to invalidate her sexuality because she's not a goldstar lol and one of her husband's lesbian friends also calls her bi. The friend (a goldstar married butch) said no lesbian would've sucked dick for 15+ years. I partially agree... but my girlfriend said she never initiated any type of sex with her husband... he would force her to suck his dick... and she'd vomit afterwards (sometimes). She has a great lesbian therapist who helps her get through all of this, fortunately, because I am not sympathetic lol we are a terrible couple... she hates goldstars (especially "heterophobic" misandrists and radfems like me) with a passion and is very misogynistic and homophobic. Opposites truly attracted in our case lol 🥰

Oh, as I mentioned in another post... I have peaked her though! And she's slowly becoming a feminist. She had an abortion during her teens and needs to support women's rights, which she has never done... she hated feminists and gays until recently.🤦

I've learned a lot from https://www.reddit.com/r/latebloomerlesbians/ ...they are "lesbians" who love men which infuriates me lol

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Well this post took quite a turn lmao

[–]theory_of_thisan actual straight crossdresser 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

You care about the gender expression then right?

[–]theytookourjerbs[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Yes. For the lesbian, she has to be femme or andro. For the bisexual that prefers women, she has to be more on the feminine side. For the ftm, he has to be a femboy.

[–]theory_of_thisan actual straight crossdresser 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Do you think that expression is natural in some way or entirely cultural?

Like, why is there this aspect to sexual attraction and expression?

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I would think lesbian. Maybe if you were with a super passing ftm, you might get read as straight, but based on the type you describe it doesn’t sound like that wouldn’t happen lol.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 2 insightful - 3 fun2 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 3 fun -  (64 children)

Personally I don’t believe in labeling other peoples sexualities. So it’s a matter of what you think it is.

[–]MarkTwainiac 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (63 children)

I generally agree with not labeling other people's sexualities. But the OP directly asked us to.

Also, my lack of interest in labeling other people's sexualities comes from a different place to yours. You think anyone's sexuality is merely a matter of what they think and say it is, just the way you think that's true of everyone's sex and "identity." I disagree. Coz I think there is an objective reality to both sex and sexual orientation.

Therefore, I don't think it's accurate for two people in a male-female sexual relationship to be called homosexuals, even if that's what they say they are. Similarly, I believe it's a lie to call two males in a sexual relationship with one another either lesbians or heterosexuals, though some males in sexual relationships with other males today are claiming those very labels for themselves.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (62 children)

You are right in that we fundamentally disagree here.

[–]MarkTwainiac 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (61 children)

So is the bottom line that you don't believe that that objective material or social reality exist - only self-perception, self-description and self-identity? Or do you think that there is such a thing as objective material reality and social reality, but that objective reality is of little or no importance compared to the way individuals see and define themselves, the world, and the words/labels they use?

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (60 children)

Objective reality exists but the subjective is what matters when it comes to identity.

[–]MarkTwainiac 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (59 children)

Why?

So the deception that Alicia Estes committed by pretending to a be a heroic survivor of the 9-11 attack on the World Trade Center matters less than her "identity" as Tania Head? https://youtu.be/UfYQfeLuSrQ

Donald Trump's self-identity as the greatest POTUS ever, the best dealmaker in history, and the winner of the most recent US presidential election matters more than his record, other people's views of him, and the verified vote counts?

Elizabeth Holmes' identity as a good person and a tech genius on par with Steve Jobs counts more than her actions at Theranos and all the lies and hoodwinking she tried to get away with?

Christian Karl Gerhartsreiter's long-claimed identity as Clark Rockefeller matters more than the murder and other crimes he committed? https://www.vanityfair.com/style/2009/01/fake_rockefeller200901

Again, why?

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (58 children)

I don’t consider any of those identities. They are beliefs, but that’s different than an identity.

An identity is inherently subjective. I have a male body. That’s a fact. I also consider myself a woman but that isn’t dependent on external physical reality. It’s subjective. Now in that case there could be an objective basis in brain structures etc but ultimately how one identifies is inherently subjective. I can’t tell you how you should identify any more than you can tell me how I should. We just do.

[–]MarkTwainiac 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (55 children)

I'm not telling you how you should conceptualize yourself. I don't care. I don't care how you dress or "present" yourself either. You do you.

My concern is that QT says your subjective psychological sense of yourself as a woman should have as much, or even more, validity in life, law, sport, medical care, public provisions, social customs, communal accommodations and services as the objective physical reality of me actually being a woman owing to the verified and verifiable fact that I am a human who is female and of adult age.

My concern is that QT says the general public - and girls & women in particular - need to give up rights and bend over backwards to accommodate, validate and "affirm" the subjective psychological sense of self that you and some other people have in your heads.

In exchanges with me and other female posters on other threads, you've not shown us much respect. You've also taken it as your right to define what being a woman is and means, and what specifically female body parts are for.

My own subjective self-image is not an issue here coz I am not trying to impose my internal feelings, thoughts and imaginings about myself onto the world and other people in it. I'm not demanding that other people take seriously what I believe about myself and show my ideas about myself respect. I'm not trying to use my inner ideas about myself to take away any other people's rights or remove safeguarding provisions put in place to benefit children, women and disadvantaged persons the way QT and trans activists are.

Also, I don't have an "identity" the way you do. I'm of a generation that doesn't do the "identify as" thing, and for whom the very idea of "identifying as" what we are not seems utterly alien. I just have a boring old internal self-concept. Or rather two self-concepts, one which represents who I think I am - my "as is" self- and the other that represents who I wish I were - my ideal self. But I can't imagine trying to impose my views of who I wish I were on other people, much less demanding that they take my idealized, indeed imaginary, self as true and show "respect" for it - especially when it contradicts what they can see for themselves with their own eyes.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (54 children)

My own subjective self-image is not an issue here coz I am not trying to impose my internal feelings, thoughts and imaginings about myself onto the world and other people in it. I'm not demanding that other people take seriously what I believe about myself and show my ideas about myself respect.

You are demanding your conception of identity define how everyone is treated, not just you. You want your ideas to control how we are treated.

[–]BiologyIsReal 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

You're the one who is dictacting how we must see you and how we must treat you even though biology goes against your self-image. Do you apply the same logic for other situations? Can someone practices medicine just by "identifying" as a doctor, even though they never studied for it? Can someone just "identify" as innocent in a trial so all the evidence against them is ignored? Can someone "identify" as Olympic champion runner even though they has never won any race? Can someone identify as a governor even though they lost the elections?

[–]MarkTwainiac 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

No, that's not true, and you know it. I'm a pluralist and democrat. I want laws, public policy and social customs to be decided by all the various kinds of people who make up society working together and based on democratic principles and objective material and social reality that's measurable, verifiable and widely agreed upon. I want all sides to have ample opportunity to discuss, present evidence and engage in vigorous debate where everyone gets a chance to have their views heard.

Whereas you want laws, public policy and social customs to be decreed in dictatorial fashion by you and others who constitute a tiny, self-selected, self-serving special interest group and whose members all believe that a) the subjective feelings that individuals like you have about yourselves matter more than objective reality that the rest of society agrees on; and b) the desire/need of a tiny authoritarian minority to get your own way and to bend the world to your will should take precedence over other people with different views being able to have, hold on to and exercise their/our rights and freedoms.

I don't want to control you. I don't want you to be mistreated, either. I think you should be protected from discrimination and able to live your life as you wish without harassment, abuse or violence.

But at the same time, I also don't think the totally unverifiable claims you and others make about the "identities" you have in your heads are a good foundation on which to make law, public policy and to try to build a fair society. You're the one who wants a society based on coercive control, not I.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (47 children)

Aren’t you kind of demanding that your conception of identity (an “identity” that is based on the fact of half of the human population, the half that you weren’t born as…) dictate for actual female humans as well as pretty much everyone else what it means to be a woman?

Meaning aren’t you trying to make the rest of the world, including the very people you based your identity on, conform to your personal sense of identity?

You want your ideas to dictate female spaces and rights and the language everyone uses.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I don’t get how a male identifying themselves as a woman is any different from Trump identifying himself as a great president.

Both of you are basing your criteria of what makes a woman/great president based on what is convenient for you. You can identify as a “woman” if you define for yourself what it means to be a woman. That doesn’t make what you’re identifying with anything close to actual “womanhood”. That doesn’t make it any more valid than Trump. You’re basing your identity on your belief, rather than on the objective reality of what it is to be a woman.