Both: In light of recent events. In what context is Voyeurism and Indecent Exposure acceptable? Is there a rational justification for making an exception for males who claim to be women?

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[–]FlippyKingSadly this sub welcomes rape apologists and victim blaming. Bye! 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun -  (98 children)

then ask for trans spaces. None of the violence you cite makes you a woman nor does it make the women's room a sanctuary for you from male violence. High school locker rooms are violent, gym lockers for adults not so. I've seen weird shit in lockers at gyms but no violence. This isn't high school.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 1 insightful - 6 fun1 insightful - 5 fun2 insightful - 6 fun -  (97 children)

Trans spaces force trans women to put themselves. That’s bad. I advicate where possible for single occupancy neutral spaces but also those would never happen large scale without a government mandate.

And men are dangerous wherever they are. They are just hardest to escape when in a tiny single exit room with more than average privacy and assurances a woman ( a person capable of empathy unlike men) will be there to help or call for help.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun -  (96 children)

“Trans spaces force trans women to put themselves”

Assuming you meant “out”

Question- aside from fear of discrimination (like real discrimination- work, housing, medical- not women not wanting you to join their women’s book club), what real reason is there to be worried about being outed? (Left out violence since we are discussing third spaces as a protective measure, meaning we’d be dealing with preventing violence already by adding third spaces)

Meaning, why can’t we fight for protections for trans people against discrimination, and also rally for trans spaces so everyone- trans or not- is safe and comfortable? Truly the best bet for trans people is to stop trying to get everyone to accept them as women/men, and get people to accept them as trans. So how does it not make the most sense to fight to protect and make space for trans people, and make it safer for them to be out? Particularly when there are so many visibly trans trans people anyway?

Im not being snarky, I’m genuinely asking. I feel like any community that needs protections or established rights has to fight for them, but no other community fights for those things while also fighting to conceal their status as a member of that community.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 3 insightful - 6 fun3 insightful - 5 fun4 insightful - 6 fun -  (95 children)

Sorry got clipped off there. Being “trans not men or women” is not going to lead to us living normal lives. It’s necessaarilly othering. Plus many might take offense and feel like shit to be told legally they aren’t real people.

Plus trans people will never be accepted. Like being visibly trans will never not suck. It’s not salvageable. Stealth will always be better for the stealth person.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (94 children)

Being trans is not normal. That’s not an insult or anything- It’s just not. And being trans doesn’t mean you’re not a real person so idk what you’re talking about with that.

Being trans is an abnormal thing, it’s rare. Trans people have to accept that. Because even if you stealth, there’s always risk of being outed. Or of having to trust someone, even just a potential romantic partner, enough to tell them.

Idk what you think a “normal” life is, but if protections are in place that makes it easier for you to get a job, a home, and medical care when you need it, the rest is kind of on you, as far as what your life is made up of. Date people who are open to being with trans people. Make friends with people who don’t care, or embrace your community. Being out doesn’t mean you can’t live your life- I’m not really getting what you’d be kept from.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 4 insightful - 5 fun4 insightful - 4 fun5 insightful - 5 fun -  (93 children)

When you are trans you aren’t just a person. You being trans defines every interaction. And for the negative.

Immagine that literally every person you every interact with only looks at you with pity or disdain. Everyone. Immagine what that’s like. Because that’s what life is for an out trans person. Even if we got basic equality protections, you still can’t be normal and everyone will remind you of it every day even without getting into safety.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (50 children)

I promise you the rest of us don’t care nearly as much as you think we do. most of us generally dgaf, we just don’t want to be forced to participate or be affected since it has nothing to do with us- that’s not disdain, it’s just not wanting to constantly gaslight ourselves, attempt to reprogram ourselves, or go along with things we know to be untrue. you said trans people are being told they aren’t “real” people- that’s what I referred to earlier. Being othered when you actually are « other » (you can’t deny being trans is an incredibly unique experience that the rest of us- all 99%- can not begin to relate to) is not the same as not being considered real. And how can people stop othering you if even you yourself are making being trans out to be this shameful thing that should be kept secret?

I think seeing as how you have carte blanche to dismantle female rights, it’s a bit ridiculous to act as if everyone Everyone. looks at you with pity or disdain. If that were true, women would still have sex based rights, spaces, and sports. Why are people bending over backwards to accommodate trans people, even « trans » people, if everyone Everyone. looks on you with disdain? Why the cancel culture? Why rewrite lgb history? Why the newspeak? Why are people burning jkr’s books? Why the mass shut down of pro women/trans critical Reddit subs? Why a thousand other little and big things that contradict your narrative that everyone hates/pities trans people?

You’re actually not entitled to a life free of pity or disdain, unfortunately. So if people feeling sorry for you truly is the price you have to pay for women to maintain their rights and for you to obtain yours- that doesn’t exactly come across as a raw deal to me. Particularly since what you’re saying is a gross exaggeration anyway…

You « can’t be normal » because you refuse to attempt to treat your actual mental condition (and call any attempts at finding treatment conversion therapy) and you struggle to/can’t accept reality (not you you, the community in general, it seems). Don’t put that on everyone else, we have nothing to do with that. What even is “normal”? When you live a life having altered as much of yourself as you can the way someone does when they « transition », I don’t think you can really expect normalcy, at best you can hope for routine. By nature of being trans you have a very specific and distinct experience that nobody who isn’t trans can relate to. I don’t really see how that’s ever going to be « normal ». If you mean live a stereotype of a life, plenty of out trans people get married and have families and just Idk go to work and do whatever « normal » shit is every day. There are actually trans people living boring ass humdrum lives like the rest of us, some of them are on this sub.

Im sorry, I just don’t think not wanting people to pity you or have what you consider disdain- but is more likely indifference and/or a lack of a sense of obligation to placate- is enough to justify undermining women’s rights instead of fighting for your own on the basis of what you literally are. It’s absurd and self serving to refuse a route that would benefit the majority of trans people because you want to be able to keep being trans a secret so more people might like you 🙄.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 3 insightful - 5 fun3 insightful - 4 fun4 insightful - 5 fun -  (49 children)

And how can people stop othering you if even you yourself are making being trans out to be this shameful thing that should be kept secret?

They won’t no matter what. And it is a shameful thing that should be kept a secret if you can. Stealth is your only chance at a normal life.

People are nice to things they pity sometimes. Like feeding an ugly stray dog. That’s how trans people have everything we have. Being pathetic.

Yeah I know if you don’t care we are treated like wretches.

There are actually trans people living boring ass humdrum lives like the rest of us, some of them are on this sub.

Because they are stealth. You don’t get a life as an out trans person. No one will love you. You will struggle to fine even mediocre employment. You will exist and noone will care of you live or die. Stealth people get lives. We get … existences. Shit this isn’t even about me. I don’t pass. But I want others who might be able to to have a shot at a life worth living.

Humans are social creatures and if you are treated like a freak by everyone you interact with it effects you.

[–][deleted] 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

People are nice to things they pity sometimes. Like feeding an ugly stray dog. That’s how trans people have everything we have. Being pathetic.

I disagree. Trans people don't "have everything [they] have" because they're pitiable, or because nontrans people consider them pathetic and can only respond with pity.

I'll use your ugly stray dog analogy since I have irl experience with that. I've volunteered for many years with a regional dog rescue npo known for taking in "hard cases" (abuse, neglect, complex medical issues). I guarantee you that pity doesn't stabilize a starving dog or see a dog through months of treatment for heartworm infection -- I've done that particular task several times. It's empathy for the dog, and recognition of its dignity as a sentient being. Those are very, very different things than pity.

Not to be invasive, but your language sounds clinically depressed and self-despising.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 3 insightful - 6 fun3 insightful - 5 fun4 insightful - 6 fun -  (1 child)

I do hate myself but that’s not the point.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (45 children)

Im sorry, Im not sure how to respond, the self loathing dripping in your comment is a bit overwhelming for me…

I always thought trans people were individuals with varied life experiences. I forgot you speak for all of the lived experiences of every trans person to ever exist. And none, none at all, not even quite a few of the out trans people that I know or have met personally, not even the openly trans celebrities, not even 1 individual out of the estimated 1.5 million- has ever been able to live a normal (again- what is normal?) life. They’re all just liars. And so are their partners and friends and children and families and coworkers and it’s all just one big conspiracy set up just so we can claim that it’s possible. Just to give false hope so people will keep transitioning and Big Pharma can rake in that dough and we can sterilize people for population control.

You want people to be able to- even feel like they should- lie to everyone in their lives. You want them to never actually experience being loved and accepted for who they are, not even by themselves. Think what you want about yourself but it’s so fucking wack to push that kind of life and mentality on an entire community. You could advocate for making the world a better place for all trans people, not just the ones who pass, but you’d rather disregard the majority for the few who have the chance to stealth? Because you think perpetuating the idea that concealing the truth from as many people as possible is the only way a trans person can be happy? I feel like I’d just spend my whole life wondering what would happen if someone found out, I’d be miserable and looking over my shoulder all the time. But what do I know, I guess.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 2 insightful - 5 fun2 insightful - 4 fun3 insightful - 5 fun -  (44 children)

You can disagree if you want but life sucks for out trans people. If you want happiness your shoot for stealth. Otherwise you transition to numb the pain of Dysphoria and deal with the fact that society will see you as a freak and noone will ever love you. That’s life for trans people. You hit the lotto and go stealth or you have a shitty life period. But it’s still better than the dysphoria.

It’s a journey to accept that we’d get there quicker without false hope. “Acceptance” won’t ever happen. We need protections because people hate us and we need facilities access. But lying to us about hope and singing Kumbiah isn’t going to help anyone.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (40 children)

It’s just odd to me- in my head Im presenting the best (realistic) case scenario: protections and acceptance as trans, and you’re just like- nah, leave us in this in between stage with all this tension and discomfort on all sides.

It just kind of sounds like according to you, no matter what any of us does, life is just gonna suck for trans people. Trying to get people to see TW as women and TM as men has gotten mixed results to say the least, you can’t fathom that we might accept and support you as what you are, you don’t want us to fight for safe spaces for you because you don’t want to be outed, you want single occupancy but think it’s not realistically going to be implemented- like what the fuck do you want? Lol what do you hope for? Because frankly you’re painting this incredibly dark picture where no matter what you’re just kind of assed out in all areas of life.

I don’t have a point or a question Im just lost at this point lol

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Learned helplessness coupled with an expectation on others to solve any and all discomforts in life is what’s ruining these peoples lives, not imagined pity.

Any solution that is not all women stepping in to solve male pain is unacceptable, impossible, and very cruel. Like..this conversation could be used to illustrate the waif and hermit subtype of BPD to be brutally honest.

[–][deleted] 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Like..this conversation could be used to illustrate the waif and hermit subtype of BPD to be brutally honest.

Yep.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 2 insightful - 5 fun2 insightful - 4 fun3 insightful - 5 fun -  (37 children)

Acceptance won’t happen. Rights are needed largely because of that.

It just kind of sounds like according to you, no matter what any of us does, life is just gonna suck for trans people

Correct

At least if they accept we are women (and trans men are men) they won’t think we are Wretched freaks. Which is what you want. “Stop hiding that you are freaks and let everyone hate you openly” that’s not a plan that helps us.

No one will ever accept trans people As anything more than circus freaks if the narrative of “trans people aren’t like normal people” is the refrain. Also you are asking us to abandon our identities and take on new ones. I don’t think of myself as “neither a man or a woman” I think of myself as a woman with a birth defect. Telling people I’m not a woman would be me lying.

I’m not worried about being outed. Everyone knows what I am. I see how nonpassing trans people get treated Nd I want better for others.

Noone would pay for dedicated trans spaces. Absent a legal mandate anyway. I would love single occupancy as a standard but again who is paying for that?

what the fuck do you hope for

Death mostly anymore

painting a dark picture where you are asses out in all areas of life

You are finally getting it. Being an obvious trans woman sucks. It’s better than the pretransition dysphoria but it’s a miserable life.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (36 children)

Yeah…

How’s that whole « accepting you as women » thing working out? Because it seems to not be going so well. Which is why I asked what I asked in the first place.

Im not saying the refrain is « trans people aren’t normal ». Im saying the fact of the matter is that being trans is not a normal thing to be. It’s just not. It’s rare. You know this. I didn’t say it made you a freak, im saying it does you no favors to not acknowledge that being trans is an incredibly unique experience, and I honestly don’t know how people who aren’t trans can relate to it. Which is exactly why the whole TWAW mantra is not exactly working out. TWAW depending on who you ask- and even some of the people who agree qualify that, TW are trans as a fact.

How you think of yourself and what’s reality are two different things. You can tell yourself you’re a woman with a birth defect- that doesn’t mean you actually are a woman or were born with a birth defect. Being male is not a birth defect. I know I know you hate men so to you it is- that’s your opinion, it’s still fact that it’s not a birth defect to be a male just because you wish you weren’t.

I’m not asking you to abandon your identity- you can’t even explain what it means to identify as a woman anyway lol. Im asking you not to undermine and diminish the truth and experience of half the world’s population by claiming it as your own. You’re a transwoman, that comes with its own set of experiences that no woman will ever relate to. And we have our own experiences that you can’t relate to. It’s disrespectful to ignore that, and it doesn’t make that truth go away.

You say you want better for others but it seems like you don’t- you just want those lucky enough to pass to be able to stealth, you seem to have no problem leaving non passing trans people in the lurch. I don’t really I know what to say about that other than that communities advocate better for themselves when they have each other’s backs…

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 3 insightful - 5 fun3 insightful - 4 fun4 insightful - 5 fun -  (35 children)

Things will never be good for nonpassing trans people but they aren’t getting better by making them some unrelatable other.

You are saying not just accept but encourage people to think of us other than we think of ourselves. “I’m a woman but Instead think of me as some uncomfortable other that won’t fit in anywhere ever”.

What you are asking is for us to become basically American Hijra. And life isn’t Awesome for Hijra if you weren’t aware.

I’m a woman so I want people to think of me as a woman. They usually don’t which is depressing and sucks but won’t be improved by telling them not to.

[–]adungitit 4 insightful - 6 fun4 insightful - 5 fun5 insightful - 6 fun -  (0 children)

Imagine that literally every person you every interact with only looks at you with pity or disdain.

I mean, being a woman who rejects femininity, I'm pretty used to being treated as a failure at anything other than making men's dicks go up. I hear talks of how subhuman women are every day, including from trans communities who are currently pushing back decades of progress women have made for the sake of their validation.

Even if we got basic equality protections, you still can’t be normal

Well, yeah, you're in a group that's getting plastic surgeries and amputations, creating an artificial hormonal imbalance and spending a lifetime on hormones not meant for your body for no reason other than having a mental illness that makes you think a healthy, normal body you have is "wrong" and "disgusting". Even the trans people recognise that passing this off as having a male or female body isn't going to pass, hence why so many progressive positions revolve not around acceptance, but tricking people that you're really the opposite sex as effectively as possible. Imagine if gay people only insisted their partners legally be treated as the opposite sex so they could feel "normal", or if women had to amputate their breasts and take testosterone to stop being treated as subhuman...Oh wait, that one's already happening.