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[–]circlingmyownvoid2 3 insightful - 5 fun3 insightful - 4 fun4 insightful - 5 fun -  (35 children)

Things will never be good for nonpassing trans people but they aren’t getting better by making them some unrelatable other.

You are saying not just accept but encourage people to think of us other than we think of ourselves. “I’m a woman but Instead think of me as some uncomfortable other that won’t fit in anywhere ever”.

What you are asking is for us to become basically American Hijra. And life isn’t Awesome for Hijra if you weren’t aware.

I’m a woman so I want people to think of me as a woman. They usually don’t which is depressing and sucks but won’t be improved by telling them not to.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (34 children)

Im not saying to go around telling people that being trans is abnormal WTF

Im saying that trans people need to be able to acknowledge to themselves that being trans is a rarity that most people can’t relate to. And maybe they should keep that in mind when considering what they’re asking of others, and what they’re trying to tell us is true.

You’re saying “I’m a woman but Instead think of me as some uncomfortable other that won’t fit in anywhere ever”

Im saying “ ”

Im saying nothing.

you don’t have to say shit. You don’t have to tell people shit- unless it matters.

And people who it will matter to would either be professionals who shouldn’t be just randomly telling people they met a trans person or someone in your personal life who should be told (like a romantic partner). If someone mistakes a TW for a woman and the result is not that that someone gets raped by deception or the rights of a female aren’t undermined who gives a fuck? And if you don’t pass but someone is willing to use preferred pronouns and call you a woman it’s not like I’m saying they should be stopped.

All I said was that I think it’s better to advocate for spaces for trans people and that, because the ability to stealth is both not a guarantee and can be taken from someone, maybe it’s better to consider finding ways to make things better for out trans people, So people don’t have to stealth in their first place.

the trans community as a whole can advocate better for themselves by acknowledging some unavoidable truths and accepting that the rest of the word doesn’t think like them- so trying to convince or force us to think like you ain’t gonna work. It’s not working, masks. It’s really not going well, this current narrative is backfiring. And it’s backfiring because you cannot and will never be able to successfully convert the whole world or even your whole country to your way of thinking. You’re losing allies and upsetting people who didn’t give a fuck before as well as still having to deal with the people who actually do just hate trans people just because

That’s really all I’m saying- You can’t control how people see you or think of you, no matter how much it means to you. You can advocate for protections so that regardless of how someone thinks of you, you are safe and have equality (equality doesn’t mean inclusion, acceptance, or getting everything you want)

Im Also saying acknowledging the reality of the situation rather than pushing what you’d like it to be may actually help put out the fires on the bridges the trans community is currently burning

Im not saying blatantly out yourself, I’m saying it is possible to work towards getting to a point where if you are known as trans, people don’t care

Every community has had to do this- it’s a tough comparison because being trans is so unique- but women had to convince men we weren’t hysterical harlots who would ruin the world if we had equality, poc had to convince white people not to- well a lot of things…, LGB had to convince heteros that we weren’t mentally ill, depraved and that we deserved to not be illegal, and then that we deserved equal rights… obviously there’s still work to be done in all of those communities, but great strides have been made and my point is just that even if you’re right and everyone does currently just look at trans people as freaks or whatever you said, that’s kind of true all the time in these types is situations- we judge other groups and even discriminate against them until we learn to do better. You can see it all through out history. You don’t overcome that by perpetuating the idea that what you are should be kept secret because it’s shameful. All that does is tell the rest of us to agree with you.

But you can’t overcome it by forcing your beliefs on others, either.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 3 insightful - 5 fun3 insightful - 4 fun4 insightful - 5 fun -  (33 children)

It is shameful. It’s bad to be trans. Everyone agrees. Shit you agree. Advocating for trans people to be seen as some abnormal other doesn’t help anyone. If we are just saying we are women, the conflict ends in peace if we win. Pushing the narrative that we are some phantom other doesn’t have a positive endpoint, it just convinces people we ate some phantom other who don’t belong anywhere if it’s successful.

[–]BiologyIsReal 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (31 children)

It's would only end in peace for "trans women"... However, this would only make things more difficult for women. Making special exeptions for some males in practice means accepting any male in women's spaces, and next thing you know incidents like the Wi spa hapen. Trans people want women to empathise with them when they don't have any for women.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 1 insightful - 5 fun1 insightful - 4 fun2 insightful - 5 fun -  (30 children)

And your solution is “trans people should be freaks, have nothing, and unable to hide it”. Yeah your empathy cup runneth over.

[–]BiologyIsReal 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (29 children)

I said nothing of that sort. You're putting words in my mouth. Besides, yourself has admited that most trans people don't pass. So, why do you expect people accept TWAW as a truth when you know people are usually aware of trans people's actual sex and just pretend otherwise for politeness sake? Why don't fight for tolerance and third spaces instead of antagonizing half the population?

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 3 insightful - 5 fun3 insightful - 4 fun4 insightful - 5 fun -  (28 children)

Tolerance isn’t living. Bring a freak people pretend doesn’t exist isn’t something to shoot for. So we push for acceptance.

Third spaces aren’t viable. People hate trans people they wouldn’t want to do something just for us. No one will spend money on resources that won’t see use most days. It necessarily outs the ones lucky enough to pass.

Single neutral spaces don’t have those problems.

[–]BiologyIsReal 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (17 children)

Trans identified peaple are not going to achieve acceptance by forcing their beliefs on everyone else.

Third spaces could be for single use too. Trans identified people could fight for those, as long there are still single sex spaces. And don't give me "that won't ever happen because the nobody cares about trans people" excuse when there are in fact lots and lots of people bending backwards over whatever transactivists demand. Years ago, the nude man of Wi Spa would have been kicked out of the women's section without questions immediately. This is the result of the trans lobby.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 1 insightful - 6 fun1 insightful - 5 fun2 insightful - 6 fun -  (16 children)

That’s literally the only way to achieve acceptance. Everyone thinks we are freaks and deviants. You want everyone to keep thinking that. We just want to be thought of as normal. And that will take pushing.

[–]BiologyIsReal 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (15 children)

Keep forcing your beliefs on everyone else, dismantling single-sex spaces, ingnoring everyone else's boundaries, sending death and rape threaths to dissenting women, treating anyone who questions the official narrative as nazis, advocating for the medical abuse of chidren, using people with DSDs as gotchas, treating desisters and detransitioners like shit, saying a lot of racist things to justify your beliefs, advocating for men playing against women in sports, excusing sexual predators, putting men -even ones convicted of violence against women and/or rape- in women's prisons, rewriting history, changing the meanings or words, denying biology, and censoring any wrongthought. If trans people keep doing that, I warrant you, sooner or later everyone will think trans are nothing but freaks or deviants. Transactivists have been changing laws and policies behind everyone's back, but this secretism cannot last much longer. Once more people wake up about what is happening, they won't be happy. This simply is not way of achieving acceptance. What transactivists are aiming for, instead, is obedience.

[–][deleted] 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

Tolerance isn’t living.

But it's all any of us are legally owed under the aegis of "rights."

Rights and protections mandate tolerance, which is a neutral value of access, support, and regard.

Acceptance (as you use it here) is a positive value of social relating.

The rights you want to see granted are important, but it doesn't follow that acceptance will accompany tolerance. Individuals and groups must work for acceptance; it requires its own effort.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

This is such a better way of wording what I was trying to say earlier!

[–][deleted] 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I like your examples better. 😉

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 2 insightful - 6 fun2 insightful - 5 fun3 insightful - 6 fun -  (6 children)

And you are working against it. That’s my point.

[–][deleted] 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

Incorrect. We are working to prevent further erosion of women's and children's rights and protections, which still are not on par with men's -- worldwide.

If you demand exceptionalism, the burden of that argument is yours to demonstrate and support. It needs the support of reliable and current data, not anecdotal personal biographical evidence.

You've said openly and recently on this forum that your participation here is an act of self-harm and co-occurs with a low point in your mental health. Given that declaration and how your comments have repeatedly unfolded,

a) You seem to have conscripted the rest of us, unwillingly, to participate in ritual psychological self-harm

b) You seem to be acting out emotionally rather than debating (circular logic, insupportable assignments of intent, evasiveness)

c) As such, you're likely hindering rather than advancing the cause of trans rights, and

d) Most assuredly doing yourself further harm

My sincere advice: go engage professional help. This is not an attack -- it's a plea. I will not engage you again until you assert and demonstrate that you're out of crisis.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 8 insightful - 3 fun8 insightful - 2 fun9 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

Yeah you’re not going to listen to a thing I say so good night masks lol