Both: In light of recent events. In what context is Voyeurism and Indecent Exposure acceptable? Is there a rational justification for making an exception for males who claim to be women?

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[–]circlingmyownvoid2 1 insightful - 5 fun1 insightful - 4 fun2 insightful - 5 fun -  (30 children)

And your solution is “trans people should be freaks, have nothing, and unable to hide it”. Yeah your empathy cup runneth over.

[–]BiologyIsReal 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (29 children)

I said nothing of that sort. You're putting words in my mouth. Besides, yourself has admited that most trans people don't pass. So, why do you expect people accept TWAW as a truth when you know people are usually aware of trans people's actual sex and just pretend otherwise for politeness sake? Why don't fight for tolerance and third spaces instead of antagonizing half the population?

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 3 insightful - 5 fun3 insightful - 4 fun4 insightful - 5 fun -  (28 children)

Tolerance isn’t living. Bring a freak people pretend doesn’t exist isn’t something to shoot for. So we push for acceptance.

Third spaces aren’t viable. People hate trans people they wouldn’t want to do something just for us. No one will spend money on resources that won’t see use most days. It necessarily outs the ones lucky enough to pass.

Single neutral spaces don’t have those problems.

[–]BiologyIsReal 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (17 children)

Trans identified peaple are not going to achieve acceptance by forcing their beliefs on everyone else.

Third spaces could be for single use too. Trans identified people could fight for those, as long there are still single sex spaces. And don't give me "that won't ever happen because the nobody cares about trans people" excuse when there are in fact lots and lots of people bending backwards over whatever transactivists demand. Years ago, the nude man of Wi Spa would have been kicked out of the women's section without questions immediately. This is the result of the trans lobby.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 1 insightful - 6 fun1 insightful - 5 fun2 insightful - 6 fun -  (16 children)

That’s literally the only way to achieve acceptance. Everyone thinks we are freaks and deviants. You want everyone to keep thinking that. We just want to be thought of as normal. And that will take pushing.

[–]BiologyIsReal 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (15 children)

Keep forcing your beliefs on everyone else, dismantling single-sex spaces, ingnoring everyone else's boundaries, sending death and rape threaths to dissenting women, treating anyone who questions the official narrative as nazis, advocating for the medical abuse of chidren, using people with DSDs as gotchas, treating desisters and detransitioners like shit, saying a lot of racist things to justify your beliefs, advocating for men playing against women in sports, excusing sexual predators, putting men -even ones convicted of violence against women and/or rape- in women's prisons, rewriting history, changing the meanings or words, denying biology, and censoring any wrongthought. If trans people keep doing that, I warrant you, sooner or later everyone will think trans are nothing but freaks or deviants. Transactivists have been changing laws and policies behind everyone's back, but this secretism cannot last much longer. Once more people wake up about what is happening, they won't be happy. This simply is not way of achieving acceptance. What transactivists are aiming for, instead, is obedience.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 1 insightful - 5 fun1 insightful - 4 fun2 insightful - 5 fun -  (14 children)

Your red string is showing. But whatever. This is pointless. You want us to be freaks. I want to live a normal life. There isn’t a balance.

[–]BiologyIsReal 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (13 children)

You're the one who thinks you're a freak and assumes everyone else want to put trans identified people in a circus display as freaks. What I'm saying is that if you want acceptance, then you should be more worried about transactivists than "T*RFs" and regular males. Because transactivists won't bring you acceptance.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 1 insightful - 5 fun1 insightful - 4 fun2 insightful - 5 fun -  (12 children)

You're the one who thinks you're a freak and assumes everyone else want to put trans identified people in a circus display as freaks.

That’s what you are pushing for. Making transition as costly and delayed as possible to make sure as few people as possible pass. Making it so stealth is impossible and we are all plain to be laughed at and have nowhere safe to go. It’s at least the logical extension of what you push for.

You are arguing daily we are predatory monsters and perverts instead of just people. Men kill us. You excite them, they do violence. That’s why we are afraid.

Because transactivists won't bring you acceptance.

At least they are trying. You want us as Quasimodo monsters to laugh at.

[–]BiologyIsReal 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Look, I get it. You hate yourself and, therefore, it's hard for you to believe everyone else don't see you as a freak to get laughed at. But none of us here called you that, and I just added that transactivists aren't going to bring you the acceptance you're looking for.

We are not exciting anyone to harm you. Sexist and homophobic men (i.e. the kind of men more likely to attack trans identified males) don't listen to women. It's absurd to blame us for whatever violence they commit.

[–]worried19 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

You want us as Quasimodo monsters to laugh at.

Circling, do you honestly believe that? You're a human being, not a monster or a freak. So you don't pass as female. That doesn't mean there's anything wrong with you. It's been a long time since we talked, but are you in a space where you have other trans friends and acceptance from your community? I have this idea of you being in a more conservative environment. If that's true, maybe it would be good for you to move, if possible. It's 2021 and trans people in most parts of the USA are faring much better than they did 20 or 30 years ago.

[–][deleted] 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

Tolerance isn’t living.

But it's all any of us are legally owed under the aegis of "rights."

Rights and protections mandate tolerance, which is a neutral value of access, support, and regard.

Acceptance (as you use it here) is a positive value of social relating.

The rights you want to see granted are important, but it doesn't follow that acceptance will accompany tolerance. Individuals and groups must work for acceptance; it requires its own effort.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

This is such a better way of wording what I was trying to say earlier!

[–][deleted] 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I like your examples better. 😉

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 2 insightful - 6 fun2 insightful - 5 fun3 insightful - 6 fun -  (6 children)

And you are working against it. That’s my point.

[–][deleted] 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

Incorrect. We are working to prevent further erosion of women's and children's rights and protections, which still are not on par with men's -- worldwide.

If you demand exceptionalism, the burden of that argument is yours to demonstrate and support. It needs the support of reliable and current data, not anecdotal personal biographical evidence.

You've said openly and recently on this forum that your participation here is an act of self-harm and co-occurs with a low point in your mental health. Given that declaration and how your comments have repeatedly unfolded,

a) You seem to have conscripted the rest of us, unwillingly, to participate in ritual psychological self-harm

b) You seem to be acting out emotionally rather than debating (circular logic, insupportable assignments of intent, evasiveness)

c) As such, you're likely hindering rather than advancing the cause of trans rights, and

d) Most assuredly doing yourself further harm

My sincere advice: go engage professional help. This is not an attack -- it's a plea. I will not engage you again until you assert and demonstrate that you're out of crisis.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 1 insightful - 6 fun1 insightful - 5 fun2 insightful - 6 fun -  (4 children)

That is a woefully inaccurate description of my interactions here, but if don’t want to interact with me, just don’t. You don’t have to make up insults and Try to use my mental health as an excuse to ignore what I’ve said.

[–][deleted] 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

See above.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 1 insightful - 6 fun1 insightful - 5 fun2 insightful - 6 fun -  (2 children)

don’t want to interact with me, just don’t

[–][deleted] 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

See above. Done.