GC: Are we reducing people to their reproductive organs/ability? Is gender identity a mental illness? And if so, what are the similarities between gender identity and other mental illnesses?

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[–]loveSloaneDebate King 14 insightful - 1 fun14 insightful - 0 fun15 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

“When we say sex is determined by gametes, or sex organs, are we reducing people to their body parts and reproductive organs/ability?”

No. It’s not reducing anyone to anything. It’s simply stating what sex is and how it’s determined/defined. There’s no implication behind it. There’s no stereotyping, no expectations, no anything but cold hard fact. TRAs are the ones reducing people, but to stereotypes, gender roles, and expectations- because they need to, because sex existing but not dictating our actions, personalities and behaviors works against them. They rely on those stereotypes, roles and expectations to try to make a case for validity. That’s why they cling to the “gender not sex” thing, unless it suits them to try to claim that trans people change sex or that “sEx iS a SpcTrUM”. They vacillate between “gender over sex” and the “sex spectrum” depending on what their arguing for, demanding from others, or trying to take from females.

“One criticism I often hear is that people shouldn't be reduced to their gametes and sex organs, that when sex is defined as gametes or sex organs, women are reduced to being incubators, walking wombs, and egg releasers/producers, while men are reduced to being penis/testes carriers, walking penis/testes, and sperm releasers/producers, which is offensive, insulting, dehumanizing, and objectifying to women and men. What are your responses to this criticism?”

This is ignorant. Sex exists. It’s how we exist. Period. That’s indisputable. The fact that sex exists and women and men are capable contributing to reproduction in only one of two ways is just what it is- a fact. Nothing about how sex is defined states that because of your sex, an individual is somehow required, expected, or obligated to reproduce. Nor does it imply that if someone chooses not to, never gets the opportunity to or just can’t reproduce for any reason that they are sexless. All it means is that humans are born one of two sexes, and provided they don’t face any specific medical issues, certain injuries, or are born with certain intersex conditions (which are rare), they are capable of reproduction in one of two ways.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

“The tweets claimed that the difference between other mental illnesses such as dementia and gender dysphoria or identity is that others usually agree with one's gender identity,”

You ever wonder how they simultaneously claim that others accept or agree with trans people’s identities, while also saying we don’t respect them, we commit violence against them, discriminate against them, and that they are the most unprotected marginalized group of people? They also seem to simultaneously claim that they “pass” and their target sex partners and even obgyn’s can’t discern a difference between their bodies and the bodies of people who aren’t trans, but that nobody wants to date them (pre or post op) due to bigotry or fear of ridicule? Seems like most people don’t, in fact, accept their gender identity.

Unless you mean that others tend to agree with their own gender identity (Meaning a “cis” woman identifies as a woman, and a “cis” man identifies as a man)? In which case, that would kind of sound like trans people are definitely mentally ill, since that’s not true for them.

“while if someone with dementia says they hear voices, or see things that are not there, others usually do not agree there are voices or things out there, they know they are hallucinations”

I refer to the first thing I said in this comment. Most people seem to not see trans people as what they wish to be seen as. More often than not, when it’s not coming from gc or tra, I hear “I have no problem with calling them what they want to be called or sharing spaces with them”. Which suggests they don’t see them as they wish to be seen, they just don’t give a fuck either way and can’t be bothered to speak out against, question, or advocate for them. It’s not that most people accept what they’re saying, it’s that most people either dismiss them as possibly mentally ill but harmless, or just aren’t invested at all because they don’t think their demands or narrative affect them.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (11 children)

When we say sex is determined by gametes, or sex organs, are we reducing people to their body parts and reproductive organs/ability?

How is it saying that? How do you find that message? No, it’s not reducing anyone to anything.

Reducing womanhood would be saying that it’s a preference for feminine coded objects that males can have. Reducing womanhood would be men saying that the only thing women should/can do/aspire to childbirth and child rearing.

How is knowing what male and female mean reductive? Please explain your bizarre questions.

How is homosexuality related in any way, shape, or form related to someone either believing gender norms so hard they think they need to be the other sex or such intense hatred of their body that they need to think they are the other sex? What’s the common factor that makes them sensible things to compare.

One is a sexuality, the other is distress over material reality and deeply ingrained adherence to culturally dictated sexed roles.

[–]ColoredTwiceIntersex female, medical malpractice victim, lesbian 11 insightful - 3 fun11 insightful - 2 fun12 insightful - 3 fun -  (10 children)

It is like saying that human are bipedal is reducing humans to our legs.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

I’ve been told so many times that humans are ackshually not bipedal specifically because of amputations or limb ameliorations/duplications lmao.

If we acknowledge that it’s typical to have armpit hair are we armpit hair essentialist?

Reducing humans to some physical feature because to the people asking, a person is empty inside and their identifiers are what they have instead of personalities, interests, relationships, or anything that isn’t interesting to Twitter. A physical identifier being reductive makes sense if you’re already reducing everyone to a performance.

[–]ColoredTwiceIntersex female, medical malpractice victim, lesbian 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Reducing people to their body parts or functions is when saying "birthing bodies need abortion rights and menstruators need to fight against taboo around menstruation" - when it could be just said "females/women need abortion rights and to fight against taboo around menstruation".

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Yessss! The birthing people/menstruators/people who get pregnant nonsense that tra insists on is what reduces people to their ability to gestate.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Lol you think tras see women as people? /s

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 8 insightful - 3 fun8 insightful - 2 fun9 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

Well feminism IS for whales.

[–]SnowAssMan 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

A woman is an adult human female. If 'adult' & 'human' aren't "reducing women to x" then how is the word 'female'? When referring to some as a human, adult as well as their reproductive potential then the word woman or man is used, otherwise you can just use the individual's name.

It's the only thing women have in common with one another. So removing 'female' from the definition would make the word 'woman' redundant, since there would be no reason to group a bunch of random people together who share nothing in common, universally.

I think you're asking whether 'cross-gender self-identification', not 'gender identity' (they just call it "gender identity" because it sounds more affirming, which is the reason for everything they do), is a mental illness. According to the DSM it used to be regarded as a mental illness, similar to body integrity identity disorder & body dysmorphia, but now they can't decide what it is.

They want to have all the benefits of categorising it as a mental illness (so they can treat it medically & any of the resulting costs incurred can be covered by insurance) without any of the drawbacks of mental illness (stigma). So they call it a "sexual condition", whatever that means.

Seeing as most desist & most desisters are gay, I don't think it's a mental illness, but a phase in gay children:

"as the World Professional Association for Transgender Health notes in their latest Standards of Care, gender dysphoria in childhood does not inevitably continue into adulthood, and only 6-23% of boys & 12-27% of girls treated in gender clinics showed persistence of their gender dysphoria into adulthood. Further, most of the boys’ gender dysphoria desisted, & in adulthood, they identified as gay rather than transgender".

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1002/hast.365

The ones who aren't gay, typically have ROGD in adolescence or adulthood. Abigail Shrier covers the heterosexual girls transitioning phenomenon (social contagion + sexism). I believe Blanchard already covered the non-homosexual males who transition. In the latter's case it's a paraphilia (which Blanchard calls 'autogynaephilia'), which is a form of mental illness, if I'm not mistaken.

Autogynaehilia is only present in cultures with a large middle-class population (that's why only white people seem to have it, it's not a "racial" thing, but a class thing). This phenomenon I have made a more detailed post about (with sources) here:

https://saidit.net/s/GCdebatesQT/comments/73b6/both_do_transbians_exist_outside_the_west/

Ironically, recognising transgender as an identity at all does the very thing they were trying to avoid – it pathologises homosexuality & gender non-conformity in general.

[–]MarkTwainiac 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

Seeing as most desist & most desisters are gay, I don't think it's a mental illness, but a phase in gay children:

Snow, I think this sweeping statement applies only to males who develop childhood gender dysphoria prior to puberty. The quote you use to back up your statement says as much:

most of the boys’ gender dysphoria desisted, & in adulthood, they identified as gay rather than transgender".

Your other points and the sources you give seem to suggest you realize that observations about male people with pre-pubertal, childhood onset "gender dysphoria" do not necessarily apply to female people who develop "GD" during puberty or in the decade afterwards.

Still, I think it's crucial to highlight that we all should be very wary of applying what is known about one sex and age group to people who are of the opposite sex and an entirely different age and stage of development.

Sorry for being annoyingly pedantic, but I think using what's known about past populations of males who claim to be "trans" as the template for the large numbers of females claiming to be "trans" today serves neither group. And it's incredibly sexist and misogynistic too.

[–]SnowAssMan 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

I welcome GC pedantry in a world of self-ID pedantry – it helps redress the balance. There are real differences between the sexes, unlike the superficial ones between men who different gender role preferences. Also, the way OP conducts themselves, they seem to want us to believe they arrived here from Mars yesterday & require every detail explained to them, so the more detail the better.

For the moment, what the rest of the world regards as 'transgender' we should be able to recognise that there are a number of distinct groups, who only have self-ID in common:

• GNC homosexuals: typically male children going through a phase/identity crisis/having their orientation pathologised

• Transtrenders: typically female adolescents, part of a teen sub-culture

• Autogynaephiles: male adults with a paraphilia

The transing of lesbians is probably a similar phenomenon to the first group I listed. Western sources don't confirm it, but female homosexuals in other cultures who are labelled neither men nor women (but viewed by the West as "trans"/"a third gender") seem to be treated similarly to their homosexual male counterparts (whenever they get mentioned, the vast majority appear to be male). The majority of Western "homosexual transexuals", appear to be male too, but gay men generally outnumber lesbians.

[–]MarkTwainiac 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Just to clarify: autogynephilia typically starts at puberty. Boys of 9, 10, 11, 12 and on can and do have AGP. It's most apparent in adult males, but it's definitely not confined to males who have already reached adulthood.

The sex and age differences between the different groups are important to keep in mind because in countries such as the USA, female minors are now the main group being medicalized with early puberty blocking medications, radical surgeries (double mastectomies) as young as 12-13 and cross-sex hormones in their teens. And this is happening based on what full-grown adult males who developed naturally - many of whom have opted not to medically alter their own bodies - claim would have been best in their own cases. Once again, the male is taken as the default human, and claims that some individual male adults make based on their experience/dreams/desires as grown males are being taken as universal truths and applied to all trans people of both sexes and all ages.

Puberty blockers have both similar and different effects on the two sexes physically and mentally. The Tavistock found that the girls put on PBs became more likely to have thoughts/urges of self-harm on the drugs, not less. It seems girls whose puberty is blocked not only end up without normal bone density, but depending on how early they started the blockers they also end up shorter than they would have been otherwise - which will certainly won't help them "pass" as the opposite sex. Moreover, whereas most of the physical effects of exogenous estrogen in males seem to be reversible once they stop taking E, girls and women who take testosterone end up with a number of bodily changes that are permanent.

[–]ZveroboyAlinaIs clownfish a clown or a fish? 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

So like in other healthcare fields - male is taken as standart and then male treatment is used on females, even if females need opposite treatment, like in this case. I've read some studies that women who want to become transmen - better start transition later, this will reduce risks of a lot of complications, will make body much healthier and it will easier survive surgeries (surgeries like double mastectomy would be still needed even if girl started blockers and testosterone pre-puberty), and because it is testosterone treatment - transmen would always "pass" well, regardless if they start at 10 or at 30.

While for transwomen to "pass" the earlier they start - the better they will "pass" in the end. Complications in surgeries do not depend on age as well. Early blockers would make bones and muscles to be very fragile, but in general there are much less problems for boys than for girls.

And regardless of this all - girs who want to become transmen are medicalized and treated same way as boys who want to become transwomen, while it is really hurtful for them.

So even in transgender community tendencies are staying the same, even after changing their gender - people born male are main focus and "standart" and people born female are treated with male's treatment and their concerns are ignored.

[–]MarkTwainiac 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

You nailed it!

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

They want to have all the benefits of categorising it as a mental illness (so they can treat it medically & any of the resulting costs incurred can be covered by insurance) without any of the drawbacks of mental illness (stigma).

This. So much this. I could go on forever about just this one aspect.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

“There it was, their comparing being gay being falsely seen as a "mental illness" before to being transgender being seen as a mental illness, and claiming that because being gay was falsely classified as a "mental illness", so was being transgender.”

Being homosexual doesn’t involve any discomfort in your body, or any sense of being something you have no experience being. They aren’t comparable at all. Gay people don’t demand that others see them as anything other than equally deserving of rights and respect. Trans people want the rest of us to call men women, women men, and to rethink and redefine our sexualities (gay or straight) to include them. I’m not elaborating much but my point is just that there’s such a huge difference between being gay and being trans.

“That as declassifying being gay as a "mental illness" reduced the stigma attached to being gay, the same occurs or will occur by declassifying being transgender as a mental illness.”

Homosexuality not being classified as a mental illness don’t do very much to de stigmatize being gay. It’s not like as soon as it was declassified, the straights were automatically more accepting and less homophobic.

“But is being transgender not a mental illness? What about gender identity?”

I kind of think that being trans is technically the physical state, not the mentality. So how can you call someone’s physical body mentally ill? Gender dysphoria is still a mental health issue. Gender identity can’t even be clearly explained, it’s not a real thing, imo. It’s just an attempt to make it sound like rather than having a mental disorder, they have this sense of self that we don’t understand or relate to because we aren’t trans.

“And if being transgender and gender identity are mental illnesses, what are the similarities between them and other mental illnesses?”

I’d first point out that not only is it similar to some other mental illnesses, more likely than not someone who’s dysphoric likely has other mental health issues as well. Narcissism, ptsd, depression, even autism seems to be common (not saying autism is anything like the other examples, just saying that other conditions seem to be prevalent alongside dysphoria/the trans community.)

There’s also other types of dysphoria, body integrity disorder, ive seem some pretty compelling arguments for comparing it to eating disorders, especially anorexia. In fact a lot of former anorexia sites have now turned into trans community sites.

Disclaimer for my comments: I feel like I have some sort of “pregnancy fog” it’s hard for me to articulate myself right now lol, sorry if I’m not wording things well today)

[–]ColoredTwiceIntersex female, medical malpractice victim, lesbian 13 insightful - 3 fun13 insightful - 2 fun14 insightful - 3 fun -  (5 children)

they have this sense of self that we don’t understand or relate to because we aren’t trans

It always was confusing me: if they have some inner sense of being woman and feeling like a woman, but no other woman have it - aren't this means they are not a woman, as their sense of self is different to all women and separates them as a clear distinguished group?

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Yep. It’s why the idea that women all have a woman identity and just don’t know about it is pushed so hard. Without that it becomes clear that they are simply men having a male experience that they cannot handle.

[–]ColoredTwiceIntersex female, medical malpractice victim, lesbian 6 insightful - 3 fun6 insightful - 2 fun7 insightful - 3 fun -  (1 child)

That would make us "trans transwomen".

Hm. If transwomen wearing dress in Scotland are protected from being discriminated for this dress, but women wearing same dress are not protected - would we be protected as "trans transwomen"?

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 9 insightful - 3 fun9 insightful - 2 fun10 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

Haha women being protected anywhere. That’s a good one.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

They say we don’t notice it because our sex matches our gender identity. When they do try to explain the concept, one of three things happens: (1) they can’t explain what gender identity even feels like- they just “knew” they were women/men inside, (2) they explain it but it’s them explaining feeling discomfort and or disconnect in their body- which is basically them describing dysphoria but calling it gender identity, or (3) they do explain it and it’s literally them explaining that they liked dolls and dresses and pink as a child. It seems to mean something different to each of them, but all women are supposed to have it, too. The people who use the last one also can’t account for why not all women like dolls and dresses and pink, yet them liking those things means they themselves are women.

[–]ColoredTwiceIntersex female, medical malpractice victim, lesbian 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

1

Then why only them, 0.6% of all people have such feeling, but not the 99.4%? There so many people in the world and humanity lived for millenia - someone from those 99.4% at least few times should be having such feel or mentioned it.

2

They would be surprised on how many women have at least partial dissasotiation with our bodies, especially during puberty. And it is not even speaking about victims of sexual assaults.

3

In my experience - only around 10-15% or less of women are liking dolls or/and pink. And maybe up to third girls and mostly only because they had no other choice.

I was playing soviet analogue of LEGO, for example, and liked cars (and grow up to be an engineer). Almost no girl in my childhood played with dolls, actually.

[–]MarkTwainiac 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Homosexuality not being classified as a mental illness don’t do very much to de stigmatize being gay. It’s not like as soon as it was declassified, the straights were automatically more accepting and less homophobic.

Just want to add that removing the "mental illness" stigma from homosexuality also did not automatically make homosexual people in the Western countries affected more accepting of themselves and others who are gay and lesbian. My impression is, many young gay males and lesbians in the West today have more - and more pronounced - internalized homophobia than people their age did in the 1960s, 70s, 80s and 90s.

[–]MarkTwainiac 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

the difference between other mental illnesses such as dementia and gender dysphoria or identity is that others usually agree with one's gender identity, while if someone with dementia says they hear voices, or see things that are not there, others usually do not agree there are voices or things out there, they know they are hallucinations.

Please leave people with dementia out of this. Dementia is

a chronic or persistent disorder of the mental processes caused by brain disease or injury and marked by memory disorders, personality changes, and impaired reasoning.

Dementia is not the same as schizophrenia and psychosis, the conditions you are describing.

Dementia can have a variety of causes and can occur in anyone at any stage of life. However, it's most commonly found in the elderly, and in the West it affects many more female people than male people. Dementia is primarily age and sex-linked.

Dragging dementia into this convo does a real disservice to people with, or vulnerable to, this condition. And it's just one more example of how genderists constantly appropriate other people's wholly unrelated medical conditions, mental illnesses, historical experiences, struggles and suffering in the effort to make their made-up identity claims seem more legitimate.

[–]SilverSlippers 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

If its not a mental illness, then I guess hormone therapy and surgeries are no longer necessary? If it was just an identity, then why the need to radically alter your body?

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS[M] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Please address the users who have responded to you before creating any additional threads or they will be deleted and you will no longer be able to participate in this space.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

My bad. It seemed easier to articulate my response if I broke it down into chunks. I didn’t mean to start multiple threads, I should’ve posted them as a “reply” to each other

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS[M] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Hi loveSloane! I wasn’t directing this to you lol. You are fine. I want the OP to stop making new threads until they engage with the users who have responded.

[–]emptiedriver 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

GC: Are we reducing people to their reproductive organs/ability?

Am I reducing you to your passport to say you're British or Turkish or Chilean? Am I reducing you to your skin tone to say you're black or white? Am I reducing you to your job to note your profession, or reducing you to your family to mention your partner..? How is a piece of information about someone a reduction?

Being female is not my identity. I'm a human being not a classifiable type. Being female is something true about me, and it is meaningful in various personal and sociological ways, but exactly how is complicated and interlocks with other things that are true about me. To start with it is simply a straightforward fact.

[–]FlippyKingSadly this sub welcomes rape apologists and victim blaming. Bye! 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

This "reducing people/women/whatever to their genitals" cliche is a silly play on words. People have many different characteristics, and they grow and learn and change over time. Sex is one of those characteristics, a physical and observable one. Pretending "woman" means something other than adult human female serves no purpose other than to appease liars.

[–]JollyPurple 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

When we say sex is determined by gametes, or sex organs, are we reducing people to their body parts and reproductive organs/ability? One criticism I often hear is that people shouldn't be reduced to their gametes and sex organs, that when sex is defined as gametes or sex organs, women are reduced to being incubators, walking wombs, and egg releasers/producers, while men are reduced to being penis/testes carriers, walking penis/testes, and sperm releasers/producers, which is offensive, insulting, dehumanizing, and objectifying to women and men. What are your responses to this criticism?

Defining sex types isn't defining humans. We aren't A sex. We are sexed human beings. Woman is defined as adult human female. Reduction would be to say that women are only reproductive organs. But we aren't. We define women as whole complete human beings. That human word in the definition not only includes our species, but also our humanity and personhood/personality. So anyone that says the definition of women as adult human female is reductive, it's because THEY are the ones erasing women's humanity because they think being female is dehumanizing. Because human is right there in the definition. The only way to reduce women from that definition is if they themselves reduce us by erasing our humanity.

If anyone ever sees the definition of woman, adult human female, and says that it reduces women to body parts or functions, they are exposing themselves. It just means that they don't see anyone with the characteristic of being female as human. They think being female is such a dehumanizing quality, that even being recognized as one means that all your humanity is completely stripped away and you are left with nothing but sex organs and genitals.