GC: Are we reducing people to their reproductive organs/ability? Is gender identity a mental illness? And if so, what are the similarities between gender identity and other mental illnesses?

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[–]MarkTwainiac 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

Seeing as most desist & most desisters are gay, I don't think it's a mental illness, but a phase in gay children:

Snow, I think this sweeping statement applies only to males who develop childhood gender dysphoria prior to puberty. The quote you use to back up your statement says as much:

most of the boys’ gender dysphoria desisted, & in adulthood, they identified as gay rather than transgender".

Your other points and the sources you give seem to suggest you realize that observations about male people with pre-pubertal, childhood onset "gender dysphoria" do not necessarily apply to female people who develop "GD" during puberty or in the decade afterwards.

Still, I think it's crucial to highlight that we all should be very wary of applying what is known about one sex and age group to people who are of the opposite sex and an entirely different age and stage of development.

Sorry for being annoyingly pedantic, but I think using what's known about past populations of males who claim to be "trans" as the template for the large numbers of females claiming to be "trans" today serves neither group. And it's incredibly sexist and misogynistic too.

[–]SnowAssMan 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

I welcome GC pedantry in a world of self-ID pedantry – it helps redress the balance. There are real differences between the sexes, unlike the superficial ones between men who different gender role preferences. Also, the way OP conducts themselves, they seem to want us to believe they arrived here from Mars yesterday & require every detail explained to them, so the more detail the better.

For the moment, what the rest of the world regards as 'transgender' we should be able to recognise that there are a number of distinct groups, who only have self-ID in common:

• GNC homosexuals: typically male children going through a phase/identity crisis/having their orientation pathologised

• Transtrenders: typically female adolescents, part of a teen sub-culture

• Autogynaephiles: male adults with a paraphilia

The transing of lesbians is probably a similar phenomenon to the first group I listed. Western sources don't confirm it, but female homosexuals in other cultures who are labelled neither men nor women (but viewed by the West as "trans"/"a third gender") seem to be treated similarly to their homosexual male counterparts (whenever they get mentioned, the vast majority appear to be male). The majority of Western "homosexual transexuals", appear to be male too, but gay men generally outnumber lesbians.

[–]MarkTwainiac 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Just to clarify: autogynephilia typically starts at puberty. Boys of 9, 10, 11, 12 and on can and do have AGP. It's most apparent in adult males, but it's definitely not confined to males who have already reached adulthood.

The sex and age differences between the different groups are important to keep in mind because in countries such as the USA, female minors are now the main group being medicalized with early puberty blocking medications, radical surgeries (double mastectomies) as young as 12-13 and cross-sex hormones in their teens. And this is happening based on what full-grown adult males who developed naturally - many of whom have opted not to medically alter their own bodies - claim would have been best in their own cases. Once again, the male is taken as the default human, and claims that some individual male adults make based on their experience/dreams/desires as grown males are being taken as universal truths and applied to all trans people of both sexes and all ages.

Puberty blockers have both similar and different effects on the two sexes physically and mentally. The Tavistock found that the girls put on PBs became more likely to have thoughts/urges of self-harm on the drugs, not less. It seems girls whose puberty is blocked not only end up without normal bone density, but depending on how early they started the blockers they also end up shorter than they would have been otherwise - which will certainly won't help them "pass" as the opposite sex. Moreover, whereas most of the physical effects of exogenous estrogen in males seem to be reversible once they stop taking E, girls and women who take testosterone end up with a number of bodily changes that are permanent.

[–]ZveroboyAlinaIs clownfish a clown or a fish? 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

So like in other healthcare fields - male is taken as standart and then male treatment is used on females, even if females need opposite treatment, like in this case. I've read some studies that women who want to become transmen - better start transition later, this will reduce risks of a lot of complications, will make body much healthier and it will easier survive surgeries (surgeries like double mastectomy would be still needed even if girl started blockers and testosterone pre-puberty), and because it is testosterone treatment - transmen would always "pass" well, regardless if they start at 10 or at 30.

While for transwomen to "pass" the earlier they start - the better they will "pass" in the end. Complications in surgeries do not depend on age as well. Early blockers would make bones and muscles to be very fragile, but in general there are much less problems for boys than for girls.

And regardless of this all - girs who want to become transmen are medicalized and treated same way as boys who want to become transwomen, while it is really hurtful for them.

So even in transgender community tendencies are staying the same, even after changing their gender - people born male are main focus and "standart" and people born female are treated with male's treatment and their concerns are ignored.

[–]MarkTwainiac 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

You nailed it!