QT: Who is trans “inclusive” language really for?

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[–]Taln_Reich 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (85 children)

And why are men not expected to be inclusive too? Why are words like ejaculators, prostate havers, impregnators, individuals with testicles, non-birthing parents, bepenised people, and etcetera not being imposed?

well, from an equality standpoint, yes, in the same contexts in which anatomy based terms are used for subjects pertaining to the female biological sex, anatomy based terms should also be used for the male biological sex. Also, "non-birthing parent" is being pushed for (https://www.google.com/search?q=%22non-birthing+parents%22&rlz=1C1GIWA_enDE641DE641&oq=%22non-birthing+parents%22&aqs=chrome..69i57j0i30.4615j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8 with https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9262007/Academics-Australian-National-University-told-staff-stop-using-word-mother.html in particular) and while I could not find "people with prostate" I could find "people with prostate cancer" ( https://www.google.com/search?q=%22people+with+prostate%22&rlz=1C1GIWA_enDE641DE641&sxsrf=ALeKk01zFurYGzvAtuVhwzvj8kSLYpH6TQ:1613738413313&ei=rbEvYMfBEuTBlAa0-6iIBQ&start=0&sa=N&ved=2ahUKEwiHzIqH_PXuAhXkIMUKHbQ9ClE4MhDy0wN6BAgGEDo&biw=1920&bih=975 ) instead of "men with prostate cancer".

In these last years trans activists have preached, quite successfully, about the importance of using “inclusive language”. Words related to womanhood like woman, mother, breastfeeding, among others are now considered exclusionary of trans identified people. As result, people are pressured to be inclusive of trans people and not trigger them when talking. That is how terms like people with periods, menstruators, pregnant people, birthing parent, uterus-havers, individuals with cervix, people who bleed, chestfeeding, non-prostate owners, among many other have entered the scene. What is more, transactivists have not considered women’s opinion over this change in language, regardless of how dehumanizing this language often is.

Also, despite how much they boast about being intersectional, they don’t care either how confusing this new language may be for non-native speakers or for people with lower levels of education.

well, my solution (that I wanted to propose in a thread to the same subject) was something along the lines of "Men/Women and other people with [anatomical term]" and "Men/Women and other people who [biological process]" . That would be inclusive of people with poor language skills/poor anatomical knowledge while also being inclusive of transgender (who, depending on the state of transition, might still have the anatomical features/biological processes of their birth sex) and intersex people (who, depending on the intersex condition in question, might have anatomical features/biological processes that are at odds with the sex of the gender they are identifying as). This has also the advantage of clarifying which anatomical feature/biological process is the relevant one in question.

Questions 1 and 2 aren't directed toward me, so I am skipping them.

For all, don’t you think it’s contradictory that you complain that GC reduce people to their genitals when we insist on a sex-based definition of women and men, and then you impose new words that reduce women to their body parts and body functions?

"men" and "women", as understood under the transgender paradigm, are social categories, not biological ones. Of course, for the purpose of healthcare, biology still has to be adressed, and because the scientific terminology relating to biological functions is often cold, clinical and difficult to understand, language using this terminology is also cold, clinical and difficult to understand. Therefore my suggested solution of "Men/Women and other people with/who ...", covering both the typical cases (non-intersex cisgender people) while still including the atypical ones (intersex and/or transgender people)

[–]MarkTwainiac 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun -  (84 children)

"men" and "women", as understood under the transgender paradigm, are social categories, not biological ones.

But most of the world is not going to accept "the transgender paradigm" as a substitute for reality. Sex is biological, and no matter how hard you try to replace the reality of sex with newfangled social constructs, sex isn't going away. You can't erase it, override it, paper it over or make people unsee it.

Your post just illustrates how unwieldy and unconvincing '"the transgender paradigm" is. And speaking of your post, is "transgender punctuation and SPAG" a new thing too?

[–]Taln_Reich 2 insightful - 3 fun2 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 3 fun -  (83 children)

But most of the world is not going to accept "the transgender paradigm" as a substitute for reality. Sex is biological, and no matter how hard you try to replace the reality of sex with newfangled social constructs, sex isn't going away. You can't erase it, override it, paper it over or make people unsee it.

who is trying to replace biological sex with social constructs? What is attempted, is to stop going by biological sex and instead go by gender identity where biological sex shouldn't matter (e.g. outside the bedroom or medical care). And of course it is possible for a transgender person to be seen as a member of their gender identity instead of their birth sex.

And speaking of your post, is "transgender punctuation and SPAG" a new thing too?

I have no idea what you are talking about.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 14 insightful - 1 fun14 insightful - 0 fun15 insightful - 1 fun -  (14 children)

Replacing well defined and understood medical terminology with the transgender paradigm is replacing biological sex with a social construct.

The transgender paradigm is a social construct and sex is observed biology.

[–]Taln_Reich 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (13 children)

Replacing well defined and understood medical terminology with the transgender paradigm is replacing biological sex with a social construct.

The transgender paradigm is a social construct and sex is observed biology.

a.) gender identity is not a social construct.

b.) why should gendered pronouns or the categories "man" and "woman" be based on biological sex?

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (12 children)

What observable evidence is there? Not self reported feelings, actual biological processes. Gender is a social construct itself. Identity is a psychological construct, not an observable reality. It is all ideas and theory and a whole lot of sexism.

The terms are sexed. Applying gender rhetoric and sexism to them is a choice. Woman means adult human female, not person who likes things assigned to female people by a patriarchal society.

[–]Taln_Reich 1 insightful - 3 fun1 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 3 fun -  (11 children)

What observable evidence is there? Not self reported feelings, actual biological processes. Gender is a social construct itself. Identity is a psychological construct, not an observable reality. It is all ideas and theory and a whole lot of sexism.

Gender Identity is very much not a social construct. If it were, conversion therapy to turn transgender people cisgender would work, which it very much doesn't ( https://www.nbcnews.com/feature/nbc-out/transgender-conversion-therapy-associated-severe-psychological-distress-n1052416 )

In terms of observable criteria, there is the clear distress felt by gender dysphoric transgender people at their physical sexed anatomy, that is lessend when the physical sexed anatomy is changed from the one of the birth sex to the one of the gender the person identifies as. Gender dysphoria is a neurological medical issue that, similar to clinical depression, is currently diagnosed based on psychological means but is treated via medical ones (antidepressiva for clinical depression, hormone therapy for gender dysphoria)

The terms are sexed. Applying gender rhetoric and sexism to them is a choice.

no, they aren't. Of how many people you call "she" or "him", "woman" or "man" every day do you know with certainty which gonads they have?

not person who likes things assigned to female people by a patriarchal society.

really? Having Breasts, feminine facial features, lack of facial hair (usually), high levels of estrogen and a vagina were assigned to female people by a patriarchal society?

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (10 children)

How do you make the leap to conversion therapy not working being the same thing as observable biological processes? How does that make it not a social construct? Gender is a social construct so how is an identity based on it biologically evident?

how many do I correctly know the gonads.

98%or so. Intersex disorders are quite rare. The existence of people with disorders of sexual development is not a reason to stop using sexed terms for the vast majority of people. Male and female are clear and discrete categories. Disorders of sexual development are discrete categories of males and females with specific disorders. Muddying up everything observed about sexual development helps nothing and nobody.

Having Breasts, feminine facial features, lack of facial hair (usually), high levels of estrogen and a vagina were assigned to female people by a patriarchal society?

No those are sexed features. Sex is not defined by comfort or enjoyment of ones sexed features. Discomfort or distress with ones sex and sexed features does not change ones sex. It is not evidence of a gender identity. It is not a logical reason to erase sexed terms.

The erasure of sexed terms is the choice to ignore sex based oppression, or to make the wild claim that infanticide of female infants, forced births, child marriages, and all other forms of sexed oppression faced by female people is actually due to a female gender identity.

[–]ColoredTwiceIntersex female, medical malpractice victim, lesbian 13 insightful - 2 fun13 insightful - 1 fun14 insightful - 2 fun -  (2 children)

99.982% to be precise. Total amount of intersex people is around 0.16-0.2% of population and amount of intersex people with ambigious genitals or missmatched chromosomes are just 0.018%. If taking into account only genitals, then around 0.009-0.01%. So in 99.991% cases genitals = sex. And in most of cases just few extra tests needed to determine. It is around 3000-30000 or less people with DSD per country (depending on population of it). There much more transgender people than us.

Almost none of intersex people are trans (same percent as in general population), so I don't understand why we even being mentioned. We are not connected to this issue in any way and our problems are completely different.

We do not want to be called third sex, other or "less female/male". We are the same as everyone else, just with congenital problems with sexual development - like people with 6 fingers, or people with congenital heart disorders, and so on. We are neither lesser, nor "other". Othering hurt us and leads to IGM and mistreatment.

[–]Taln_Reich 1 insightful - 3 fun1 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 3 fun -  (6 children)

How do you make the leap to conversion therapy not working being the same thing as observable biological processes? How does that make it not a social construct?

If gender identity were a social construct, a change in social enviroment would be able to change it.

How does that make it not a social construct? Gender is a social construct so how is an identity based on it biologically evident?

if by "gender" you mean "gender role", then "gender" is a social construct. But gender identity is not based on gender role and is not a social construct.

how many do I correctly know the gonads.

98%or so.

a. ) now you are straight up forging quotes. What I wrote was Of how many people you call "she" or "him", "woman" or "man" every day do you know with certainty which gonads they have? . Under b.) I will treat your answer as if you had actually answered my question.

b.) really? You have examined the gonads of 98% of all people you have ever called "she","him", "woman" or "man" ? Or have you actually (you know, like normal people) looked at their physical body (and most likely in the vast majority of cases their clothed physical body, meaning you have no idea what kind of genitals they have) and assumed from their secondary sexed characteristics?

No those are sexed features.

precisely.

Sex is not defined by comfort or enjoyment of ones sexed features.

true. Gender identity is defined by this.

Discomfort or distress with ones sex and sexed features does not change ones sex.

no one claims that experiencing gender dysporia changes ones biological sex.

It is not evidence of a gender identity.

except it absoloutly is, since gender identity refers to which set of sexed physical vcharacteristics you are comfortable with.

It is not a logical reason to erase sexed terms.

but it is a reason to make gendered terminology inclusive if not all affected have the same gender identity. And I have already presented my proposal on how to be inclusive without erasing the terms "men" or "women", since it does make sense to emphasize the typical case.

The erasure of sexed terms is the choice to ignore sex based oppression, or to make the wild claim that infanticide of female infants, forced births, child marriages, and all other forms of sexed oppression faced by female people is actually due to a female gender identity.

different forms of female oppression can be either sex based or based on apparent gender. Infanticide, restrictions to abortions or underage marriages are based on biological sex, sexual harrasement and gender pay gap are based on apparent gender. I have never seen anyone make the claim that the sex based forms of oppression you mentioned were based on gender identity.

Also, how is this relevant? In what way exactly does saying "Women and other people with a cervix should undergo regular cervix screenings" over "Women should undergo regular cervix screenings" promote or ignore female oppression?

[–]MarkTwainiac 14 insightful - 1 fun14 insightful - 0 fun15 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Your constant claim that "gender dysphoria" means feeling distress over one's physical sexed anatomy and your assumption that people without "gender dysphoria" feel no discomfort over their sexed bodies are highly offensive to me.

Many girls and women spend much of our younger lives distressed and in discomfort and excruciating pain due to gynecological problems associated with our menstrual cycles. This doesn't mean we have "gender dysphoria."

Many women experience painful chronic UTIs and and issues like Bartholin's cysts due to the anatomy of our vulvas. Doesn't mean we have "gender dysphoria."

Pregnant women and new mothers experience all sorts of things due to our sexed bodies that are discomfiting, distressing and painful - backache, nausea, indigestion, liver pain, stretch marks, hemmorhoids (piles), inability to get a seatbelt comfortably around us, torn and stitched-up vulvas, pelvic nerve pain. Doesn't mean we have "gender dysphoria."

Going through the experience of labor and childbirth is extremely uncomfortable, upsetting and scary for many/most women. You have no idea. Doesn't mean we have "gender dysphoria."

Breastfeeding can be very painful, and most women who breastfeed end up with at least one mastitis infection. Breastfeeding in public can be very uncomfortable and distressing for women, especially as it tends to attract a lot of stares, disapproval and perverted men who say disgusting things and make a point of situating themselves nearby so they can rub their penises whilst they watch us feed our children. This makes women who experience this want to die of mortification and revulsion. Doesn't mean we have "gender dysphoria."

Over the long term, many women who have given birth end up with problems like pelvic organ prolapse, pudendal neuralgia, urinary and fecal incontinence due to childbirth injuries we suffered years earlier. Doesn't mean we have "gender dysphoria."

Women during and after menopause suffer a variety of problems - hot flushes, insomnia, sweats, UTIs, vaginal atrophy - due to our sexed bodies. Doesn't mean we have "gender dysphoria."

Many girls and women feel tons of distressing shame over our sexed bodies from being sexually objectified, harassed and abused - and from being told we are gross and dirty for menstruating, and that our genitals smell and are "fishy." Doesn't mean we have "gender dysphoria."

I also take umbrage at the fact that when another poster mentioned

things assigned to female people by a patriarchal society

You responded with

Breasts, feminine facial features, lack of facial hair (usually), high levels of estrogen and a vagina were assigned to female people by a patriarchal society?

You really do see female people as just an assemblage of inanimate things made by and for men, don't you? To you we're just a bunch of body parts, not human beings.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I’m sorry but if you’re gonna make silly accusations like forging quotes when I loosely paraphrase you, I’m not giving you my time.

I know because the vast majority of human beings are not intersex or transgender, because transgendered people very rarely pass, and because since there is a plague going on I see about one stranger a week. 98% was being generous.

Even in normal times, it’s so unlikely as to be laughable that in a town of 20,000 people, I’m gonna see an intersex person or a transgendered person everyday.

Most people understand women to already be people who have a cervix. It’s muddying medical facts to pander to the hurt feelings of a select few who think not liking their vagina but liking plaid makes them a man.

Giving credence to gender identity harms women by erasing them as a sexed group with distinct oppression, needs, and differences. Giving credence to gender identity allows men who believe that preferring their legs shaved and enjoying cosmetics makes them women. Giving credence to gender identity is giving credence to gender, which is a social construct designed to oppress women and gender non conforming and homosexual males.

So yes, saying people with a cervix as well does indirectly lead to the harm of women.

[–]Omina_SentenziosaSarcastic Ovalord 14 insightful - 1 fun14 insightful - 0 fun15 insightful - 1 fun -  (63 children)

who is trying to replace biological sex with social constructs?

Anyone who is trying to replace sex with gender.

What is attempted, is to stop going by biological sex and instead go by gender identity where biological sex shouldn't matter

First of all, sex is important in lots of things outside medicine and bedroom, including sports, stats, sex segregated spaces. Secondly, gender identity is something we don' t even know if it exists, it would be entirely unprovable even if it existed, it would be completely dependent on people' s words or, at most, adherence to stereotypes, and, more importantly, lots of people don' t even have it.

[–]Taln_Reich 2 insightful - 4 fun2 insightful - 3 fun3 insightful - 4 fun -  (62 children)

Anyone who is trying to replace sex with gender.

gender identity is not a social construct. And no one is "replacing sex with gender", what is happening is that sex and gender identity are seperated depending on which one is the relevant one.

including sports, stats, sex segregated spaces.

the sport one correlates with hormone levels (as these are what determines muscle buildup) which in cases of divergence between biological sex and gender identity HRT of sufficent length and dose does restore fairness.

In what regard is biological sex for non-mdeical statistics relevant?

"sex segregated spaces" - in what way is it relevant on whether the person in the cubicle next to you has testes or ovaries?

Secondly, gender identity is something we don' t even know if it exists

it does, as evidenced by the millions of transgender people experiencing distress based on the mismatch between their gender identity and physical sex.

if it exists, it would be entirely unprovable even if it existed, it would be completely dependent on people' s words

the diagnosis of clinical depression is just as dependent on the patients words as the diagnosis for gender dysphoria. Does that mean that clinical depression is entirely unprovable and does not exist?

Also, here's some studies showing a connection between brain development and transgender identities https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4699258/ , https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-017-17352-8 , https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/05/180524112351.htm

adherence to stereotypes

gender identity has nothing to do with stereotypes.

more importantly, lots of people don' t even have it.

really? How many people have experienced involuntarily aquierring the secondary sex characteristics of the opposite sex and did not felt distressed by that?

Also, in this reddit post is a fun little thought excercise in this regard https://www.reddit.com/r/truscum/comments/ll6tpa/we_need_to_start_asking_transphobes_what_they/

[–]BiologyIsReal[S] 14 insightful - 1 fun14 insightful - 0 fun15 insightful - 1 fun -  (26 children)

And who decides whether sex or gender identity is relevant in a given context?

If gender identity is not based on stereotypes, then in what is it based? How can a male feel like a woman. I'm a woman and I've no idea what is feeling like a woman.

[–]Taln_Reich 1 insightful - 3 fun1 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 3 fun -  (25 children)

And who decides whether sex or gender identity is relevant in a given context?

this needs to be discussed in a broader societal discussion. Based on what is discussed, it might make sense to go either by sex, gender identity or make some qualifications towards the state of transition for going by gender identity. It really depends on the details.

If gender identity is not based on stereotypes, then in what is it based?

it is based on what physical sexed anatomy you would be comfortable or uncomfortable with having. If it distresses you to have the typical primary and secondary sexual characteristics of your sex, regardless of the social enviroment, your gender identity might be in a misallignment with your sex. If it doesn't, then your gender identity alligns with your sex.

Essentially, there is a thought experiment (meant for self-reflection for people uncertain of whether they are transgender or just don't like their gender role/gender stereotypes): imagine you are in an enviroment without gender roles/gender stereotypes (variations are either a society without gender roles/gender stereotypes or a otherwise deserted island) and have the chance to irreversibly change your physical sexed anatomy to the opposite one (or an "neither","in between" or "parts of both" for nonbinary transgender ) would you do it?

How can a male feel like a woman. I'm a woman and I've no idea what is feeling like a woman.

The answer is, that the "I am a man/woman because I feel like a man/woman" expression is an oversimplification, that is unfortunately often misunderstood.

[–]BiologyIsReal[S] 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (24 children)

this needs to be discussed in a broader societal discussion. Based on what is discussed, it might make sense to go either by sex, gender identity or make some qualifications towards the state of transition for going by gender identity. It really depends on the details.

But who is allowed to take part in this disscussion? Many changes in law regarding trans issues are happening behind closed doors and media coverage is one sided in favour of gender identity. Women's concerns are dismissed time and time again. Any woman who speak out in favour of sex risks being threatened, smeared and de-platafformed. So, how can we have a debate about whether sex or gender identity is more relevant if only one side is allowed to talk?

it is based on what physical sexed anatomy you would be comfortable or uncomfortable with having. If it distresses you to have the typical primary and secondary sexual characteristics of your sex, regardless of the social enviroment, your gender identity might be in a misallignment with your sex. If it doesn't, then your gender identity alligns with your sex.

Essentially, there is a thought experiment (meant for self-reflection for people uncertain of whether they are transgender or just don't like their gender role/gender stereotypes): imagine you are in an enviroment without gender roles/gender stereotypes (variations are either a society without gender roles/gender stereotypes or a otherwise deserted island) and have the chance to irreversibly change your physical sexed anatomy to the opposite one (or an "neither","in between" or "parts of both" for nonbinary transgender ) would you do it?

Maybe you think that gender identity is about distress over one's sex, but there are many trans people and allies who don't think that is the case.

You can be diagnosed with gender dysphoria whithout such distress according to the DMS-5, for example. And, under the "gender affirming treatment" paradigm, it's doubtful that a therapist is allowed to question a patient's gender identity, anyway.

There are many trans natal males who like their "girldicks" very much and have no problem saying so. And they say their gender identities are as valid.

In the thread about sexual attraction, I told you self-ID was legalized in Argentina. Here, you can change the sex markers of your document without a clinical diagnosis or a judicial order. You're not required to undergone any kind of "medical transition" to do so, either before or after. You just need to say you're really a woman (or a man) despite not being born one. The law that makes this possible is commonly known as the gender identity law and gender identity is mentioned in the law text itself. There are a few other countries with similar laws and many transactivists are campaigning to expand the list.

Also, I've seen several instances of transactivists talking about forced sterelizations in reference of the requirement of undergoing genital surgery before changing your legal sex in certain countries.

The answer is, that the "I am a man/woman because I feel like a man/woman" expression is an oversimplification, that is unfortunately often misunderstood.

So, what does this expression mean then?

[–]Taln_Reich 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (23 children)

But who is allowed to take part in this disscussion? Many changes in law regarding trans issues are happening behind closed doors and media coverage is one sided in favour of gender identity. Women's concerns are dismissed time and time again. Any woman who speak out in favour of sex risks being threatened, smeared and de-platafformed. So, how can we have a debate about whether sex or gender identity is more relevant if only one side is allowed to talk?

I am against threatening, smearing or deplattforming people just based on their opinions (the first two in general, the latter excepted for when one outright promotes hate - for example Germaine Greers infamous quote equating transgender women transitioning with rape (1) - or incites criminal actions). Also, a lot of times the "concerns" presented are just Red Herrings repeated over and over 1.

(1): here is the quote in question:

All transsexuals rape women’s bodies by reducing the real female form to an artifact, appropriating this body for themselves. However, the transsexually constructed lesbian-feminist violates women’s sexuality and spirit, as well. Rape, although it is usually done by force, can also be accomplished by deception. It is significant that in the case of the transsexually constructed lesbian-feminist, often he is able to gain entrance and a dominant position in women’s spaces because the women involved do not know he is a transsexual and he just does not happen to mention it.

You can be diagnosed with gender dysphoria whithout such distress according to the DMS-5, for example.

I'm going by the ICD-10 ( under F64.0 ) that makes it quite clear, that it is about anatomical sex and the desire for medical transitioning (2).

(2):

Transsexualism

A desire to live and be accepted as a member of the opposite sex, usually accompanied by a sense of discomfort with, or inappropriateness of, one's anatomic sex, and a wish to have surgery and hormonal treatment to make one's body as congruent as possible with one's preferred sex

And, under the "gender affirming treatment" paradigm, it's doubtful that a therapist is allowed to question a patient's gender identity, anyway.

yeah, I'm kinda sceptical about "affirmation only" (e.g. no questioning of the self diagnosed gender identity allowed). People can be wrong about themself, and when someone transitions without actually being transgender, they are going to develop gender dysphoria towards the sexed characteristics of the gender they were transitioning to. Thats why detransitioners aren't big fans of this modell.

In the thread about sexual attraction, I told you self-ID was legalized in Argentina. Here, you can change the sex markers of your document without a clinical diagnosis or a judicial order. You're not required to undergone any kind of "medical transition" to do so, either before or after. You just need to say you're really a woman (or a man) despite not being born one. The law that makes this possible is commonly known as the gender identity law and gender identity is mentioned in the law text itself. There are a few other countries with similar laws and many transactivists are campaigning to expand the list.

well, in my country a person wanting to change their legal gender needs two independent medical assesments confirming the gender identity, that the person in question had been identifying this way for at least three years and that it is considered likely that they will keep identifying this way. Far as I heard, this is a rather hardass amount of conditions.

Though, back to self ID: it kind of depends on what this changed legal gender means in practice. From what I heard, it's mostly relevant in terms of into which prison one goes (both Blaire White and Rose of Dawn have made videos regarding this, with Blaire White advocating seperated LGBT wards.)

[–]BiologyIsReal[S] 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (22 children)

A) You say that society needs to have a discussion about the issue of sex vs gender identity. But it seems you think the issue is already settled. Here you are dismissing women's concern as mere bigotry. So, are women allowed to take part on this discussion or not? Or are we allowed to participate only under trans terms? Why is never trans people the ones who have to consider women's concerns?

B) My point with all these examples was there are many people who don't agree with your view of gender identity being based on distress over one's sexed body. We can't ignore those people's position because they are the ones driving many of the legal changes. They want more countries like Argentina and less with yours. They're also pushing among other things for "gender affirming treatment" and they want to ban any alternative treatment as "conversion therapy".

But even if we go by your clinical definition of gender indentity, the ICD-10 that you quote starts the definition of transsexualism with "A desire to live and be accepted as a member of the opposite sex". What does a desire to live as the opposite sex means if not stereotypes? Also, the page you linked says this about gender identity in children (emphasis mine):

Gender identity disorder of childhood

A disorder, usually first manifest during early childhood (and always well before puberty), characterized by a persistent and intense distress about assigned sex, together with a desire to be (or insistence that one is) of the other sex. There is a persistent preoccupation with the dress and activities of the opposite sex and repudiation of the individual's own sex. The diagnosis requires a profound disturbance of the normal gender identity; mere tomboyishness in girls or girlish behaviour in boys is not sufficient. Gender identity disorders in individuals who have reached or are entering puberty should not be classified here but in F66.-

How is this not about stereotypes?

[–]MarkTwainiac 14 insightful - 1 fun14 insightful - 0 fun15 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

the diagnosis of clinical depression is just as dependent on the patients words as the diagnosis for gender dysphoria. Does that mean that clinical depression is entirely unprovable and does not exist?

Please stop using other conditions to try to make a case for "gender dysphoria." Proponents of the idea that "gender dysphoria" is a stand-alone condition unrelated to, and not symptomatic of, other mental health issues should be able to make the case for it without constantly invoking other conditions. And it's galling when advocates of "gender dysphoria" as a condition unto itself try to substantiate it by invoking one of the very conditions many of us think that "gender dysphoria" is often an expression of, and cover for, such as anxiety and depression.

Also, your claim about depression is not entirely true. Mild forms of clinical depression might be diagnosed based solely on the patient's words, but that's not the case for major depressive disorder.

MDD usually involves dramatic changes in the person's affect, appetite, sleep patterns, sex drive and general behavior that are quite noticeable to others in their lives - family, members of their household, friends, colleagues. Often it involves physical changes like marked changes in weight, hair loss and increased susceptibility to physical illnesses due to suppressed immune function. Sometimes MDD involves mania, psychosis or catatonia - conditions which are very apparent to others.

Depression can be caused by a number of physical illnesses and conditions - thyroid dysfunction, pernicious anemia, urinary tract infections (particularly in elderly women), sinus infections, diabetes, lupus, MS, the hormonal changes that women experience after childbirth and during the menstrual cycle and so on. Depression can also be caused by various drugs and anesthesia.

People who seek help for depression are routinely given full physicals and tested for a battery of physical illnesses. They also often keep records of their daily behaviors, weight, sleep patterns, how much and what they ate and drank, all drugs taken, etc.

Also, people with depression are not trying to force the whole world to adopt an entirely new set of values in which depressed people's needs come first and being depressed is seen as the new norm; they're not demanding that laws and customs change to accommodate and prioritize depressed people; and they're not unilaterally decreeing sweeping changes in the language, forcing compelled speech on others, and insisting that everyone who hasn't suffered depression be labelled "non-depressives."

People with depression aren't always banging on about how nobody else on earth has ever suffered as much unbearable psychic pain as depressives. Nor are depressive rights lobbyists constantly citing fake suicide stats to get sympathy and to manipulate people into medicating children with drugs that will render them infertile and sexually dysfunctional. Of the large number of people who die by suicide each year - in 2018, more than 48,000 people in the US alone - the vast majority are depressed. But there is no annual "depression day of remembrance" or "suicide commemoration day" anywhere. Funny that.

[–]Taln_Reich 2 insightful - 3 fun2 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 3 fun -  (2 children)

Please stop using other conditions to try to make a case for "gender dysphoria." Proponents of the idea that "gender dysphoria" is a stand-alone condition unrelated to, and not symptomatic of, other mental health issues should be able to make the case for it without constantly invoking other conditions. And it's galling when advocates of "gender dysphoria" as a condition unto itself try to substantiate it by invoking one of the very conditions many of us think that "gender dysphoria" is often an expression of, and cover for, such as anxiety and depression.

yes, gender dysphoria is often coprevalent with other mental health issues. Therefore, it is often important for psychological treatment to be included, but gender dysphoria is a condition unto itself, as demonstrated by the fact, that it is not lessend by antidepressiva but is lessend by cross-sex hormones.

Also, your claim about depression is not entirely true. Mild forms of clinical depression might be diagnosed based solely on the patient's words, but that's not the case for major depressive disorder.

MDD usually involves dramatic changes in the person's affect, appetite, sleep patterns, sex drive and general behavior that are quite noticeable to others in their lives - family, members of their household, friends, colleagues. Often it involves physical changes like marked changes in weight, hair loss and increased susceptibility to physical illnesses due to suppressed immune function. Sometimes MDD involves mania, psychosis or catatonia - conditions which are very apparent to others.

And strong cases of gender dysphoria also cause enough distress to have a clearly apparent impact on the persons psychological wellbeing.

Also, people with depression are not trying to force the whole world to adopt an entirely new set of values in which depressed people's needs come first and being depressed is seen as the new norm;

in what way are transgender peoples needs "comming first" or being transgender "seen as the new norm" ?

they're not demanding that laws and customs change to accommodate and prioritize depressed people;

in what way are transgender people "prioritized" ?

and they're not unilaterally decreeing sweeping changes in the language, forcing compelled speech on others

I'm actually against laws fopr compelled speech. As far as I am concerned, legally you should absolouty be allowed to call Buck Angel "miss", "ma'm", "lady","woman" or "she/her", just be aware of (and expect the social consequences of) this being highly offensive.

insisting that everyone who hasn't suffered depression be labelled "non-depressives."

I'm sure communities of people who do have clinical depression have their terms for people who don't. It's just not in the political spotlight, because there aren't as much political/social areas affected.

Nor are depressive rights lobbyists constantly citing fake suicide stats to get sympathy

can you show that the frequently citied (and used by "gender criticals" as a joke) number of 41% of transgender people having attempted suicide (compared to 1.6 % in the general population) is wrong ( https://web.archive.org/web/20151104050421/http://www.thetaskforce.org/static_html/downloads/reports/reports/ntds_full.pdf ) ?

manipulate people into medicating children with drugs that will render them infertile and sexually dysfunctional.

a.) of course children with clinical depression are going to be medicated when needed.

b.) admittedly, I am somewhat wary of childhood medical transitioning, as before puberty it can be difficult for the child in question to discern, whether the problem lies with gender role or the sexed anatomy (as puberty causes the secondary sexed characteristics to develop). This is why gender dysphoria that persists during puberty is most likely permanent. The reason medical transitioning for children is even considered is, that the development of the secondary sexed characteristics caused by puberty is greatly distressing towards the children where the problem is the sexed anatomy while it also makes changing the physical body to match the gender identity more difficult.

Of the large number of people who die by suicide each year - in 2018, more than 48,000 people in the US alone - the vast majority are depressed. But there is no annual "depression day of remembrance" or "suicide commemoration day" anywhere. Funny that.

there is no day of rememberance for transgender suicides either. There is a day of rememberance for transgender people who were murdered.

[–]BiologyIsReal[S] 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I'm actually against laws fopr compelled speech. As far as I am concerned, legally you should absolouty be allowed to call Buck Angel "miss", "ma'm", "lady","woman" or "she/her", just be aware of (and expect the social consequences of) this being highly offensive.

Is misgendering more offensive than death and rape threaths? Are those threaths an acceptable social consequense for any woman who misgender someone? I'm asking you this because many supporters of the trans paradigma certainly think so. Also this issue is related to inclusive language.

[–]Taln_Reich 4 insightful - 3 fun4 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

Is misgendering more offensive than death and rape threaths? Are those threaths an acceptable social consequense for any woman who misgender someone? I'm asking you this because many supporters of the trans paradigma certainly think so.

I hate it when this is done (yes, I have seen the mountains of receipts regarding this). No social movement ever got anywhere by screaming angry, empty threats and people who have a different opinion. I have never done such a thing, and if it were up to me, it would immediately stop.

[–]MarkTwainiac 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

the sport one correlates with hormone levels (as these are what determines muscle buildup) which in cases of divergence between biological sex and gender identity HRT of sufficent length and dose does restore fairness.

This is totally untrue. Males have a physical advantage over females in sports that ranges from 10-12% at the lowest in sports like running to 60% in sports that rely heavily on activities of the upper body such as throwing, batting, weight lifting to 160% in sports that are largely about punching (boxing).

Males who suppress testosterone and take cross-sex hormones for a year have been shown to lose 0-4% of their muscle mass.

Also, muscle mass is not the only factor. Males have considerably larger hearts and lungs that cause them to have much higher blood oxygen, denser bones, entirely different skeletal shapes, faster twitch fibers and so on.

https://twitter.com/Scienceofsport/status/1283720954657595393/photo/1

https://twitter.com/Scienceofsport/status/1283720954657595393

https://resources.world.rugby/worldrugby/document/2020/10/09/a67e3cc3-7dea-4f1e-b523-2cba1073729d/Transgender-Research_Summary-of-data_ENGLISH-09.10.2020.pdf

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s40279-020-01389-3

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2020/dec/07/study-suggests-ioc-adjustment-period-for-trans-women-may-be-too-short

[–]Omina_SentenziosaSarcastic Ovalord 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (28 children)

gender identity is not a social construct. And no one is "replacing sex with gender", what is happening is that sex and gender identity are seperated depending on which one is the relevant one.

First, I was talking about gender and not gender identity: gender is a social construct, and it' s replacing sex. Secondly, sex is disappearing in every aspect, replaced by either gender or gender identity.

the sport one correlates with hormone levels (as these are what determines muscle buildup) which in cases of divergence between biological sex and gender identity HRT of sufficent length and dose does restore fairness.

Hormone levels are not the only important thing that should be taken into consideration and that differentiates the sexes. Not to mention, in lots of cases hormones are not even considered and men can join women' s sports without any kind of hormonal standards.

In what regard is biological sex for non-mdeical statistics relevant?

Crime, for example.

"sex segregated spaces" - in what way is it relevant on whether the person in the cubicle next to you has testes or ovaries?

How about rape shelters in which a person with a penis shares a room with a person with a vagina who was raped by another person with a penis? A locker room where 14 years old girls get naked together with a person with a penis?

it does, as evidenced by the millions of transgender people experiencing distress based on the mismatch between their gender identity and physical sex

All their existence proves is that they are distressed over their bodies and their sexed characteristics, not that that distress comes because of gender identity.

As for those studies, there are a gazillion of studies that debunk the lady/gent brain, which means that it' s far from a settled thing. Even if it were settled and trans people were recognized to have their preferred sex' s brain, they would still have their biological sex' s bodies: I don' t give a damn how much you have a ladybrain if you also have a penis and a male socialization.

the diagnosis of clinical depression is just as dependent on the patients words as the diagnosis for gender dysphoria. Does that mean that clinical depression is entirely unprovable and does not exist?

No, but it doesn' t mean that it should replace non-depression in laws and legislation. There should be space for both without having to pretend that anomalies are more important.

How about this, in another comment you say that since you don' t change your mind on your "gender identity" if you change social setting, then it means it' s real. Does that mean that if a person who believes to be Napoleon moves somewhere else and changes social settings, still believes he' s Napoleon, then he really is Napoleon?

gender identity has nothing to do with stereotypes.

I beg to differ. Most people I have asked what their gender identity is about have answered that it' s all about adherence to sex-based roles and a preference for things that are stereotypically associated with the other sex. For God' s sake, it' s how you are diagnosed with gender dysphoria "by experts" to begin with.

really? How many people have experienced involuntarily aquierring the secondary sex characteristics of the opposite sex and did not felt distressed by that?

This has nothing to do with gender identity, it' s simply distress/trauma of not having control of your body.

Also, in this reddit post is a fun little thought excercise in this regard

That thought exercise has been done to death in the old debate sub. If I woke up in a man' s body, I would be worried about who did it and how it was done, I would worry about the beaurocracy surrounded by it, I would be worried about my relationships and how to explain to people what happened without sounding like a grifter or a lunatic. I would be distressed by the fact that I would be in another body without not knowing and not consenting, not for the fact that it' s a male body per se. If I woke up in another woman' s body, I would have the same issues.

The comparison is so disingenous that it' s not even funny anymore: I would LITERALLY be in the wrong body, trans people are in their natural and healthy bodies that they have been born and grown in.

I am highly doubtful even the most devout terfs would seriously insist that she would be 100% a man

I would be a man with the socialization of a woman (note, not a man with a woman brain, I would have a male brain because I would be in a male body), which is not what happens to trans people in the least. They are still 100% their biological sex and they still have the socialization that their biological sex had brought.

and should now use mens toilet, locker rooms, call her self gay (asuming she likes men), and go by he/him pronouns because a couple of organs bellow the waist have changed

The fact that I would be awkward using a man' s toilet has nothing to do with whether or not I should use it. I would have issues with using a man' s toilet because I was taught that it wasn' t my place since I was, literally, raised as a woman (unlike trans natal males). However, I would still 100% use it because a woman' s toilet wouldn' t be my place anymore now that I am a man. Me being weird about it is not a justification for putting other women in distress and violate a space that is reserved for them.

As for pronouns, LOL! I don' t care if you call me "he" or "mister" even now that I am in a woman' s body, in fact, I would fucking love to be called mister... why the fuck should I care if I were a man?

[–]Taln_Reich 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (27 children)

Hormone levels are not the only important thing that should be taken into consideration and that differentiates the sexes.

trying not to go into that debate. We can't discuss every single transgender issue in every single thread about transgender people.

Not to mention, in lots of cases hormones are not even considered and men can join women' s sports without any kind of hormonal standards.

well, that is obviously problematic. Not going to disagree there.

Crime, for example.

can you proove that biological sex is here more important than socialisation? But, yes, I'd actually like crime stats (both in regards to perpatrator as well as in regards to victims) to record both.

How about rape shelters in which a person with a penis shares a room with a person with a vagina who was raped by another person with a penis?

And if a person with a vagina was raped by another person with a vagina, should, acording to your logic, this first person share the room with a person with a penis?

A locker room where 14 years old girls get naked together with a person with a penis?

I used to get naked in a locker room, and always felt deeply uncomfortable. And for this it would not have mattered the slightest, what genitals the other people there had. So the solution is more cubicles, so no one has to get naked in front of someone else.

All their existence proves is that they are distressed over their bodies and their sexed characteristics, not that that distress comes because of gender identity.

Gender identity is defined by what sexed characteristics you are comfortable/uncomfortable having. If there were no such thing as gender identity, there would be no such thing as gender dysphoria.

As for those studies, there are a gazillion of studies that debunk the lady/gent brain, which means that it' s far from a settled thing. Even if it were settled and trans people were recognized to have their preferred sex' s brain, they would still have their biological sex' s bodies: I don' t give a damn how much you have a ladybrain if you also have a penis and a male socialization.

And if the person in question had no longer a penis and was socialized female due to early recognition of the gender identity made possible via this method (I'm strongly in favor towards more research regarding the brain sex theory, since if it could be refined to at least a supporting diagnostic tool it would greatly help in improving the diagnostic process)?

How about this, in another comment you say that since you don' t change your mind on your "gender identity" if you change social setting, then it means it' s real. Does that mean that if a person who believes to be Napoleon moves somewhere else and changes social settings, still believes he' s Napoleon, then he really is Napoleon?

how would a person come to falsely believe themself to be Napoleon if they were in an enviroment where no one ever heard of Napoleon? If this person still believed themselves to be Napoleon even without anyone ever having heard of Napoleon, then there would clearly some weird sheniagans been going on.

No, but it doesn' t mean that it should replace non-depression in laws and legislation. There should be space for both without having to pretend that anomalies are more important.

Precisely. There should be room for both. Which is why (in regards for this threadtopic) I have proposed the compromise solution of "Men/Women and other people with/who ...", e.g. mentioning both the typical and the atypical cases, without pretending that one or the other is more important.

I beg to differ. Most people I have asked what their gender identity is about have answered that it' s all about adherence to sex-based roles and a preference for things that are stereotypically associated with the other sex. For God' s sake, it' s how you are diagnosed with gender dysphoria "by experts" to begin with.

And the transgender people I have talked to have been very insistent on maintaining a strong distinction between gender stereotypes and gender identity (in fact, if anything, conflating those to is pretty much a beserk button on that board). And let me quote the ICD-10 in this regard:

F64.0
Transsexualism
A desire to live and be accepted as a member of the opposite sex, usually accompanied by a sense of discomfort with, or inappropriateness of, one's anatomic sex, and a wish to have surgery and hormonal treatment to make one's body as congruent as possible with one's preferred sex.

( https://icd.who.int/browse10/2016/en#/F60-F69 )

The part regarding gender dysphoria in children (F64.2) also explicitly states that gender non-conformity is not sufficent for a diagnosis.

That thought exercise has been done to death in the old debate sub.

it's been changed here in so far, that here only your genitals are changed, so everyone (or at least everyone you aren't showing your genitals) would still see you as a woman.

trans people are in their natural and healthy bodies that they have been born and grown in.

And that are distressing them.

I would be a man with the socialization of a woman (note, not a man with a woman brain, I would have a male brain because I would be in a male body), which is not what happens to trans people in the least. They are still 100% their biological sex and they still have the socialization that their biological sex had brought.

so if you suddenly had a penis and testicles, but in all other aspects it was still your female body, you would insist to be 100% a man?

The fact that I would be awkward using a man' s toilet has nothing to do with whether or not I should use it. I would have issues with using a man' s toilet because I was taught that it wasn' t my place since I was, literally, raised as a woman (unlike trans natal males). However, I would still 100% use it because a woman' s toilet wouldn' t be my place anymore now that I am a man. Me being weird about it is not a justification for putting other women in distress and violate a space that is reserved for them.

so despite only your genitals being changed, you'd now (despite still looking female) use the men's bathroom? (also, in the opposite case, would that mean that a guy who suddenly found himself with a vagina instead would be supposed to be the womens, even if the rest of him still appeared male?)

[–]Omina_SentenziosaSarcastic Ovalord 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (26 children)

trying not to go into that debate. We can't discuss every single transgender issue in every single thread about transgender people.

So, just to make it clear, you bring up the topic, say that hormones are the only thing we should think about when segregating sports, I say nope, and your answer is that we shouldn' t look into the topic more specifically and we should just stay on the general directions you can justify? Ok.

can you proove that biological sex is here more important than socialisation? But, yes, I'd actually like crime stats (both in regards to perpatrator as well as in regards to victims) to record both.

Can you prove that socialization is more important than sex?

I don' t really care much about it anyway, trans people are socialized as their sex, so it would still be a segregation that would keep trans women away from women.

And if a person with a vagina was raped by another person with a vagina, should, acording to your logic, this first person share the room with a person with a penis?

Nope, but that would be because she is a danger to the other person, a trans woman would be not only a danger but also a desrespect of a sex segregated space. Not to mention that the female rapist wouldn' t bring the possibility of unwanted pregnancy in case she attacked the victim again, and the victim could have a better chance to defend herself.

I used to get naked in a locker room, and always felt deeply uncomfortable. And for this it would not have mattered the slightest, what genitals the other people there had. So the solution is more cubicles, so no one has to get naked in front of someone else.

Great, can you tell your TRA friends to get on board of that project instead of using women' s spaces?

Gender identity is defined by what sexed characteristics you are comfortable/uncomfortable having. If there were no such thing as gender identity, there would be no such thing as gender dysphoria.

Except that' s bullshit? It' s just a name you people have created to legitimize a mental illness. All people are uncomfortable with their sexed characteristics here and there, especially growing up. By your own logic, I am not a woman because I don' t like my big boobs and I would do without my period. There is no woman in existence who hasn' t been uncomfortable with her periods for one reason or another. Are we all trans men? Give me a break.

And if the person in question had no longer a penis and was socialized female due to early recognition of the gender identity made possible via this method (I'm strongly in favor towards more research regarding the brain sex theory, since if it could be refined to at least a supporting diagnostic tool it would greatly help in improving the diagnostic process)?

A male is never socialized as a woman. Even in case he' s going to transition as a child, he would still be socialized as a very special boy, not as a girl.

how would a person come to falsely believe themself to be Napoleon if they were in an enviroment where no one ever heard of Napoleon? If this person still believed themselves to be Napoleon even without anyone ever having heard of Napoleon, then there would clearly some weird sheniagans been going on.

Transgendrism has been around for decades. Even if a person has no knowledge of the terminology, everyone knows that there are people who get treatment to pretend they are the opposite sex. In order to never been able to hear about trans people, you would have to be a hermit.

Precisely. There should be room for both. Which is why (in regards for this threadtopic) I have proposed the compromise solution of "Men/Women and other people with/who ...", e.g. mentioning both the typical and the atypical cases, without pretending that one or the other is more important.

I don' t care one bit the word you use to describe things like that, I am talking about legislation. There is no space for both currently because every sex segregated right women have are being rewritten in order to include males and rendering them useless and meaningless.

And the transgender people I have talked to have been very insistent on maintaining a strong distinction between gender stereotypes and gender identity (in fact, if anything, conflating those to is pretty much a beserk button on that board). And let me quote the ICD-10 in this regard:

Awesome, can you speak to the DMS then and make then erase the 7 out of 8 points that they list to disgnose gender dysphoria? Thanks.

And that are distressing them.

ANd they are free to do whatever they want to their bodies: doesn' t make them the other sex, and they shouldn' t be recognized as something they are not, legally at least and certainly there shouldn' t be this ridicoulous push to make it the socially acceptable and morally wholesome thing to do.

so if you suddenly had a penis and testicles, but in all other aspects it was still your female body, you would insist to be 100% a man?

If only my genitals were changed, then I would be an intersex person because I would have XX chromosomes and male genitals. Which is not what trans women are. They are the opposite of it, they have XY chromosomes with feminized bodies and, more often than not, penis and testicles.

so despite only your genitals being changed, you'd now (despite still looking female) use the men's bathroom? (also, in the opposite case, would that mean that a guy who suddenly found himself with a vagina instead would be supposed to be the womens, even if the rest of him still appeared male?)

No, that answer was about me being in a male body. If I were in a female body with a penis and testicles, I would find gender neutral bathrooms or fight for them if they didn' t exist so that I wouldn' t have to shit on women' s spaces just for my benefit. Or I would keep it until I' m home. Whatever the case, I would still not impose my presence to regular women. Just because I was the victim of a wizard, it doesn' t mean that the 51% of the population needs to cater to my needs.

[–]Taln_Reich 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (25 children)

Can you prove that socialization is more important than sex?

I don' t really care much about it anyway, trans people are socialized as their sex, so it would still be a segregation that would keep trans women away from women.

A male is never socialized as a woman. Even in case he' s going to transition as a child, he would still be socialized as a very special boy, not as a girl.

You talk a lot about "female socialization". What, in terms of socialization, do a western woman raised gender neutral, a woman raised in a quiverfull family, a Basha Posh (Afghan custom where girls are raised as boys in order to deal with the extreme restrictions put upon girls in afghan society) and a woman raised in some awfull corner of the world where FGM is still practiced in common?

a trans woman would be not only a danger but also a desrespect of a sex segregated space

first, thats quite the villification, do you have statistics backing up that transgender woman in women's shelters cause an increase in danger? Second, is that "disrespect" really that bad that it justifies withholding care from a woman that was raped? And, third, would that mean that this person would be allowed in the rape shelter?

Not to mention that the female rapist wouldn' t bring the possibility of unwanted pregnancy in case she attacked the victim again

what kind of argument is that? By that logic a child or infertile woman (whether by choice or not) being raped would be less terrible, which really doesn't strike me as particulary feminist.

and the victim could have a better chance to defend herself.

that is a really poor argument. By that logic a five times MMA world champion and a 1.5 meter petite asthmatic girl would have to be put into seperate rooms because the latter is rather unlikely to be able to defend herself against the former.

Great, can you tell your TRA friends to get on board of that project instead of using women' s spaces?

generally speaking, all the pro-transgender arguers I have seen argue for spaces where nudity occurs to have cubicles so people don't have to undress in front of complete strangers. They still want to use the space belonging to their gender identity though.

Except that' s bullshit? It' s just a name you people have created to legitimize a mental illness

yes gender dysphoria is a mental condition, suspected to be neurological in cause, that, when left untreated, is often maladaptive, with the treatment in question being medical and social transitioning and acceptance.

All people are uncomfortable with their sexed characteristics here and there, especially growing up. By your own logic, I am not a woman because I don' t like my big boobs and I would do without my period. There is no woman in existence who hasn' t been uncomfortable with her periods for one reason or another. Are we all trans men? Give me a break.

do you wish to have a sexed anatomy other than female and to no longer be considered a woman? If no, then it is not the same.

Transgendrism has been around for decades. Even if a person has no knowledge of the terminology, everyone knows that there are people who get treatment to pretend they are the opposite sex. In order to never been able to hear about trans people, you would have to be a hermit.

I have absoloutly seen transpeople that were experiencing gender dysphoria before having heard about transgender people due to growing up in some particular backwards part of eastern europe.

I don' t care one bit the word you use to describe things like that, I am talking about legislation. There is no space for both currently because every sex segregated right women have are being rewritten in order to include males and rendering them useless and meaningless.

there are no rights granted to women on the basis of being women. What there is are laws against sex-based sicrimination with a couple of exemption 1 (Note: that link is UK-specific, but it applies to most of the developed world).

The closest thing to "sex based rights" would be laws specifically related to reproductive healthercare and I don't see how writing "women and other people can get abortions if they request so" instead of "women can get abortions if they request so" would take away rights from women, but for transgender men, it makes a lot of difference 2

Awesome, can you speak to the DMS then and make then erase the 7 out of 8 points that they list to disgnose gender dysphoria? Thanks.

a.) what makes you think that will do? My country goes by the ICD-10 (local modification), the DSM-5 is the american one. You think they would listen to some random foreigner?

b.) actually, in the DSM-5 definition 3 out of the 8 points are directly relating to sexual characteristics, e.g. physical sexed anatomy, not stereotypes.

c.) no psychologist who doesn't deserve their license taken would diagnose someone as gender dysphoric just for not following gender stereotypes while the patient expresses to be completly fine with their sexed characteristics. That doesn't happen.

ANd they are free to do whatever they want to their bodies: doesn' t make them the other sex, and they shouldn' t be recognized as something they are not, legally at least and certainly there shouldn' t be this ridicoulous push to make it the socially acceptable and morally wholesome thing to do.

And instead they should be stigmatized, mistreated and made outcasts for it? Transgender people do not chose to be transgender, but transitioning is as much a choice to them as taking pain medication is for someone with crippling chronic pain. Best case scenario would be the transgender person getting to transitiong and being treated by the whole of society like absoloute garbage, worst case would be the transgender person comitting suicide because they can bear neither the stigma of transitioning nor their existence in a body that feels deeply wrong to them. Do you not see that you are argueing for tormenting people for something they can not help? And for what? What is gained by considering transitioning socially unacceptable and morally wrong?

If only my genitals were changed, then I would be an intersex person because I would have XX chromosomes and male genitals. Which is not what trans women are. They are the opposite of it, they have XY chromosomes with feminized bodies and, more often than not, penis and testicles.

Why does it always come down to "but the chromosomes"? No one gives a sh#t about chromosomes. Did you ever had your chromosomes tested? I didn't, I just assume that I have the typical case because their isn't anything about my body to indicate otherwise. No one walks around testing the chromosomes of everyone they met before deciding on how to treat them, no one.

No, that answer was about me being in a male body. If I were in a female body with a penis and testicles, I would find gender neutral bathrooms or fight for them if they didn' t exist so that I wouldn' t have to shit on women' s spaces just for my benefit. Or I would keep it until I' m home. Whatever the case, I would still not impose my presence to regular women. Just because I was the victim of a wizard, it doesn' t mean that the 51% of the population needs to cater to my needs.

Why don't you fight for gender neutral bathrooms now? Transgender rights activists actually tend to do that, with gender critical people opposing.

[–]Omina_SentenziosaSarcastic Ovalord 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (24 children)

You talk a lot about "female socialization". What, in terms of socialization, do a western woman raised gender neutral, a woman raised in a quiverfull family, a Basha Posh (Afghan custom where girls are raised as boys in order to deal with the extreme restrictions put upon girls in afghan society) and a woman raised in some awfull corner of the world where FGM is still practiced in common?

What do those women... what? I think you forgot a part of the sentence.

first, thats quite the villification, do you have statistics backing up that transgender woman in women's shelters cause an increase in danger? Second, is that "disrespect" really that bad that it justifies withholding care from a woman that was raped? And, third, would that mean that this person JPG would be allowed in the rape shelter?

I don' t care if it' s a vilication, if they learned to stay away from women' s spaces, I wouldn' t have anything to "vilify" them. Second, we were talking about sexual abusers, they always raise danger when they are around potential victims. Third: nobody is saying that that guy who was raped shouldn' t get care, I am just saying that he shouldn' t get it in a women' s shelter. He' s a man, he can go to unisex shelters or an LGBT++++ one. I don' t know what JPG means.

what kind of argument is that? By that logic a child or infertile woman (whether by choice or not) being raped would be less terrible, which really doesn't strike me as particulary feminist.

Who said anything about it being less terrible? Quote me. Just because YOU made that leap it doesn' t mean I do.

that is a really poor argument. By that logic a five times MMA world champion and a 1.5 meter petite asthmatic girl would have to be put into seperate rooms because the latter is rather unlikely to be able to defend herself against the former.

If the MMA world champion were recognized to be violent or a sexual abuser, she shouldn' t be put in the same room as someone who could never defend herself against her. People with a history of being violent shouldn' t be put around other people to begin with, especially in a freaking shelter.

generally speaking, all the pro-transgender arguers I have seen argue for spaces where nudity occurs to have cubicles so people don't have to undress in front of complete strangers. They still want to use the space belonging to their gender identity though.

Of course they do, because they have zero respect for anyone else and only want their stupid identity validated. If they were reasonable people they would be ok with using separate spaces. If they are neutral, the fact that there is a woman sign in the front would be completely useless, but we obviously can' t give women the idea that they can have ONE thing without men making the argument that they are too entitled to it, can we?

yes gender dysphoria is a mental condition, suspected to be neurological in cause, that, when left untreated, is often maladaptive, with the treatment in question being medical and social transitioning and acceptance.

And? It still doesn' t prove that gender identity is a thing, unless you are ready to define gender identity as a mental illness. Still, a mental illness that makes you hate your own body 1) doesn' t equal with an innate natural identity that is at the base of womanhood for everyone and 2) it should be fought against, not pandered to.

do you wish to have a sexed anatomy other than female and to no longer be considered a woman? If no, then it is not the same.

I constantly want to not be considered a woman, given that women are not given even the fucking respect of having ONE single word to describe themselves. But not wanting to be considered a woman doesn' t change the fact that I am one.

I have absoloutly seen transpeople that were experiencing gender dysphoria before having heard about transgender people due to growing up in some particular backwards part of eastern europe.

Even assuming that were the case, which I don' t believe, they still have the knowledge of the other sex: desiring the other category' s characteristics, both physical or social, is not something that cannot occurr unless you know about trans people.

there are no rights granted to women on the basis of being women. What there is are laws against sex-based sicrimination with a couple of exemption

Yeah, because woman IS a sex category. The rights granted to women on the basis of sex ARE for women because woman = adult human FEMALE. Did you think that those rights were granted to us because of our gender identity, a concept that wasn' t even named until a few years ago?

The closest thing to "sex based rights" would be laws specifically related to reproductive healthercare and I don't see how writing "women and other people can get abortions if they request so" instead of "women can get abortions if they request so" would take away rights from women, but for transgender men, it makes a lot of difference

I wouldn' t care adding trans men and female NBs if that didn' t validate the idea that gender identity is a thing that should be respected. However, the point I was making is still that all the rights we have INCLUDE MEN. The issue here is not females who hate being females being included in things for females, it' s the fact that males are included in legislation for females.

a.) what makes you think that will do? My country goes by the ICD-10 (local modification), the DSM-5 is the american one. You think they would listen to some random foreigner?

Whatever equivalent you have in your country.

b.) actually, in the DSM-5 definition 3 out of the 8 points are directly relating to sexual characteristics, e.g. physical sexed anatomy, not stereotypes.

No, the 8 points of the guidelines are for children and it' s 7-1. The guidelines in general are 6 and they are 3-3. So counting all, it' s 14 points, 4 of which are about bodies and 10 of which are about stereotypes. As someone else has pointed out in this thread, you need three to be diagnosed with dysphoria, so even with the 6 points, you can still be diagnosed based entirely on stereotypes.

c.) no psychologist who doesn't deserve their license taken would diagnose someone as gender dysphoric just for not following gender stereotypes while the patient expresses to be completly fine with their sexed characteristics. That doesn't happen.

Considering that the current atmosphere bans any kind of treatment that isn' 100% validation, and this for mental healtchare as well, I think you are full of shit.

[–]strictly 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Also, in this reddit post is a fun little thought excercise in this regard https://www.reddit.com/r/truscum/comments/ll6tpa/we_need_to_start_asking_transphobes_what_they/

That thought experiment doesn’t make sense. This person obviously want to prove female people have “female gender identities” and would be dysphoric if they woke up as male. But the argument of this person makes is that waking up as an estrogenized male would be worse for a person with a “female gender identity” than waking up as a non-estrogenized male. If that’s the case, why would males with so called “female gender identities” want to transition to estrogenized males, if staying non-estrogenized is better for those with “female gender identities”? Shouldn’t they instead argue that female people who wake up as non-estrogenized males also would want to take estrogen and become estrogenized?

Either way, to me the estrogenized male body is the most visually unappealing body configuration (nothing against those who are attracted to that body type or like having that body type though). So yes, I wouldn’t like waking up with a “girl dick” or inverted penis. If I am going to be male I would much prefer to be non-estrogenized male, and if I am going to have penis I would prefer the non-inverted one. My first act if I woke up as an estrogenized male would be to detransition the body. And yes, I would regard myself as male if I woke up male, a male with a female past, so I would be different from other natural males as I in this magical scenario would be a magical male (made male by magic, not due to nature).

[–]MarkTwainiac 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

What is attempted, is to stop going by biological sex and instead go by gender identity where biological sex shouldn't matter (e.g. outside the bedroom or medical care).

Anyone who thinks biological sex only matters in the bedroom or medical care is very naive. And probably a male person who is young, doesn't have children, has never played or coached sports, hasn't worked alongside women in jobs where physical strength matters, hasn't had any longterm intimate relationships with female persons, has no idea that safety equipment isn't designed with female bodies in mind, has never navigated the world when visibly pregnant or as the mother of a young child, and has never spoken to female people with considerable life experience about the realities of our lives.

Just today, I had to deal with some longterm financial planning matters and inquired about putting one of my sons on my auto insurance. Actuaries will attest that sex matters when figuring out how much money you'll need in retirement, and insurance companies will tell you that adding a young male driver to the family policy will cause a considerable hike in premiums.

I have no idea what you are talking about.

Spelling, punctuation and grammar rules are commonly accepted norms that most people follow so that what we say and write can be most easily understood by others. For example, using capital letters at the start of sentences (and paragraphs), using punctuation marks to clearly denote when sentences have ended, and using spaces or separate lines when giving links and urls - especially long ones that are more than one line - rather than just smushing them in the middle of sentences.

[–]Taln_Reich 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (2 children)

has never played or coached sports, hasn't worked alongside women in jobs where physical strength matters

physical strength does play a role in certain areas. Thing is, muscle builup is controlled by hormone levels, so a transgender person that has been on HRT for a significant time might be better grouped by gender identity here.

And probably a male person who is young, doesn't have children,

hasn't had any longterm intimate relationships with female persons

please elaborate.

has no idea that safety equipment isn't designed with female bodies in mind

safety equipment ought to be designed to consider either body type.

has never navigated the world when visibly pregnant

or thought to be pregnant.

or as the mother of a young child, and has never spoken to female people with considerable life experience about the realities of our lives.

and you think people who appear female in these situation and are transgender are not experiencing this?

Just today, I had to deal with some longterm financial planning matters and inquired about putting one of my sons on my auto insurance. Actuaries will attest that sex matters when figuring out how much money you'll need in retirement, and insurance companies will tell you that adding a young male driver to the family policy will cause a considerable hike in premiums.

this is more likely conncted to gendered socialisation rather than whether the person in question has testes and ovaries. Also, insurance companies are already facing the fact that this will now go by gender identity.

Spelling, punctuation and grammar rules are commonly accepted norms that most people follow so that what we say and write can be most easily understood by others. For example, using capital letters at the start of sentences (and paragraphs), using punctuation marks to clearly denote when sentences have ended

english is not my native language and as far as I can see, I ended all sentences with punctuation marks (though there might be some "," misplaced or missing). As for capital letters at the start, that should not make what I write more difficult to understand.

and using spaces or separate lines when giving links and urls - especially long ones that are more than one line - rather than just smushing them in the middle of sentences.

I place links and URL's were I want, especially when making a point.

[–]MarkTwainiac 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

you think people who who appear female in these situation and are transgender are not experiencing this?

Once again, in the minds of "gender identity" believers everything is reduced to how people appear. Nothing else matters except how one looks.

FFS, being female is not simply about appearance! Women inhabit our female bodies and feel things within and because of our female bodies. Being female is not a spectator sport! If everyone on earth world lost the power of sight, smell, taste and touch tomorrow, we female people would still be female and inhabit female bodies. And males would still be 100% male, even the ones who wished to be women and claimed to be trans.

As a woman, I feel I have more in common with males who know they are males than with males who claim to be female and are focused on trying to approximate appearing female coz the "regular" males are more likely to be grounded in reality as I am.

To answer your question directly: I believe males who alter their looks so they "appear female" have absolutely no effing idea what it's like to experience life in a female body as female people do. There is very little connection between what males who identify as trans and try to come off as women experience coz of their altered appearance as they go through life and what actual female people experience coz of inhabiting bona fide female bodies.

During COVID, many women who live alone, particularly older women, haven't seen anyone or been seen by anyone in a year. This has not diminished our being female one iota. Nor has it had any impact on our experience of our female sexed bodies.

I don't understand what you mean by your reference to someone who is "thought to be pregnant"? Thought to be pregnant by whom? How can a male think he is pregnant? What would it mean and matter if someone else were to think a male who "appears like" a woman might be pregnant? A male thinking he is pregnant, or someone else thinking he is pregnant, would not make him pregnant, nor make it possible for him ever to be pregnant. There is no connection between the hypothetical you have raised and the lived reality of being a pregnant woman.

Pregnancy is something that happens inside a female body. It's not affected either way by vision - whether the woman's own or anyone else's.

When I spoke of navigating the world when pregnant, I didn't mean being viewed by others as pregnant - I meant dealing with the physical realities such as having always to find a restroom coz of the constant need to pee, feeling an exhaustion in the early months that is like no other, being nauseous 24/7 for months at a time, having always to make the sensory adjustments required to maintain balance in an unwieldy body that is and feels so markedly different and is so much larger to how it's felt and been the rest of your life, having always to be hyper-aware and vigilant coz of the need to protect the fetus from harm, having a hard time fitting into a seat in a diner or behind the wheel of a car, having your water break in public... and so on.

But all this seems beyond your understanding coz you see being female as something that is all about - and only about - appearance.

[–]MarkTwainiac 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

When I said

Just today, I had to deal with some longterm financial planning matters and inquired about putting one of my sons on my auto insurance. Actuaries will attest that sex matters when figuring out how much money you'll need in retirement, and insurance companies will tell you that adding a young male driver to the family policy will cause a considerable hike in premiums.

You said:

this is more likely conncted to gendered socialisation rather than whether the person in question has testes and ovaries. Also, insurance companies are already facing the fact that this will now go by gender identity.

You really think the fact that in nearly all human societies - particularly those where most people have a decent enough standard of living to have access to sufficient food, clean water, shelter and basic medical care - female humans have longer life expectancy than males by a number of years is down to "gendered socialization"? The fact that males are 3 times more likely to die of COVID-19 than females is all due to gendered socialization? The different diseases that men and women in mid-life and old age tend to develop, and the different trajectories the same diseases take in members of the two sexes, are all the result of gendered socialization?

Please contact the press, then. Most scientists believe the sex differences in lifespans, in the risk of losing one's life to COVID, in the different diseases males and females develop, and the different trajectories of the same disease in the two sexes, are largely due to differences in genetics and especially due to the extra immune benefits women have due to having a second X chromosome (immune function is determined by genes on X chromosomes). Yes, some socialization does factor in, particularly when we look at lifespans starting from birth - male babies are much more likely to die before age one, for example, and between 14 and 25, males have a much higher risk than females of dying due to homicide. But take two persons, one male and one female, who make it to age 65 with similar health profiles, lifestyles, habits and such, and the woman still will likely outlive the man by 5-6 years in most countries.

If you can show that all these differences are mainly due to "gendered socialization," you deserve a Nobel Prize in Medicine.

As for the different insurance rates between young females and males, you think this is all down to "gendered socialization" too? That's funny, coz those who espouse the theory that "gender identity" is paramount usually tend to place a very high value on sex hormones, arguing that most sex differences are the result of the different hormone profiles of the two sexes and that by altering sex hormones each one of us can acquire the characteristics of the opposite sex. The insurance industry places a lot of emphasis on hormones too. A commonly-held view in the insurance industry is that a large part of the reason why male drivers under age 25 are much more likely to have auto accidents and fatalities is coz of the impact of pubertal/early adult male testosterone levels on brains that are still developing. The T in teenage boys' and young men's bodies makes them more aggressive and risk-taking whilst the lack of pre-frontal brain development they have until their mid-20s makes it especially difficult for young male drivers to assess risks and anticipate the consequences of their actions. Once their brains finish developing at at age 25 or so, they become much safer drivers.

BTW, the reasons the auto insurance industry is open to evening out the insurance rates charged to males and females after age 25 are a little more complicated that trans activists seem to think. The insurance industry only appears to be appeasing trans activists.