QT: Who is trans “inclusive” language really for?

submitted by BiologyIsReal from self.GCdebatesQT

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[–]BiologyIsReal[S] 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (22 children)

A) You say that society needs to have a discussion about the issue of sex vs gender identity. But it seems you think the issue is already settled. Here you are dismissing women's concern as mere bigotry. So, are women allowed to take part on this discussion or not? Or are we allowed to participate only under trans terms? Why is never trans people the ones who have to consider women's concerns?

B) My point with all these examples was there are many people who don't agree with your view of gender identity being based on distress over one's sexed body. We can't ignore those people's position because they are the ones driving many of the legal changes. They want more countries like Argentina and less with yours. They're also pushing among other things for "gender affirming treatment" and they want to ban any alternative treatment as "conversion therapy".

But even if we go by your clinical definition of gender indentity, the ICD-10 that you quote starts the definition of transsexualism with "A desire to live and be accepted as a member of the opposite sex". What does a desire to live as the opposite sex means if not stereotypes? Also, the page you linked says this about gender identity in children (emphasis mine):

Gender identity disorder of childhood

A disorder, usually first manifest during early childhood (and always well before puberty), characterized by a persistent and intense distress about assigned sex, together with a desire to be (or insistence that one is) of the other sex. There is a persistent preoccupation with the dress and activities of the opposite sex and repudiation of the individual's own sex. The diagnosis requires a profound disturbance of the normal gender identity; mere tomboyishness in girls or girlish behaviour in boys is not sufficient. Gender identity disorders in individuals who have reached or are entering puberty should not be classified here but in F66.-

How is this not about stereotypes?

[–]Taln_Reich 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (21 children)

A) You say that society needs to have a discussion about the issue of sex vs gender identity. But it seems you think the issue is already settled. Here you are dismissing women's concern as mere bigotry. So, are women allowed to take part on this discussion or not? Or are we allowed to participate only under trans terms? Why is never trans people the ones who have to consider women's concerns?

The concerns that have been dismissed as "mere bigotry" have already been refuted. And why do you think it's only women who can't bring up those concerns - do you think there has never been a man these arguments and had been similarily dismissed?

B) My point with all these examples was there are many people who don't agree with your view of gender identity being based on distress over one's sexed body. We can ignore those people's position because they are the ones driving many of the legal changes.

that's why I am on the truscum side of the truscum-tucute-debate ("you need gender dysphoria to be trans" vs. "you don't need gender dysphoria to be trans"), Because without gender dysphoria as a criteria, transgender identity makes no sense to me.

They want more countries like Argentina and less with yours

I'm pretty sure (since you mentioned abortion restrictions in this context) they aren't pushing for harsher restrictions there.

They're also pushing among other things for "gender affirming treatment" and they want to ban any alternative treatment as "conversion therapy".

thats going to cause the amount of detransitioners to go up, causing problems for everybody. The transgender group I'm in contact with is concerned with that, and I would prefer an exploratory approach (e.g., the therapist exploring options with the patient, making sure that the patient isn't, say, confusing the constellation of "gender non conformity, internalized homophobia, homosexuality and depersonalization issues" with gender dysphoria. But this needs to be an open process, neither pushing the patient into identifying with their assigned gender, nor mindlessly affirming the initial self-diagnosis)

But even if we go by your clinical definition of gender indentity, the ICD-10 that you quote starts the definition of transsexualism with "A desire to live and be accepted as a member of the opposite sex". What does a desire to live as the opposite sex means if not stereotypes?

the desire to be perceived as and treated as the sex of the gender identity they identify as. Let me bring an example. I know of a gender-non-conforming (gender non conforming relative to their gender identity that is) transgender man. That means, that, when he puts on a dress, he wants to be seen as and treated like a man wearing a dress, not a woman wearing a dress.

Also, the page you linked says this about gender identity in children(emphasis mine):

Gender identity disorder of childhood

A disorder, usually first manifest during early childhood (and always well before puberty), characterized by a persistent and intense distress about assigned sex, together with a desire to be (or insistence that one is) of the other sex. There is a persistent preoccupation with the dress and activities of the opposite sex and repudiation of the individual's own sex. The diagnosis requires a profound disturbance of the normal gender identity; mere tomboyishness in girls or girlish behaviour in boys is not sufficient. Gender identity disorders in individuals who have reached or are entering puberty should not be classified here but in F66.-

How is this not about stereotypes?

that's a bit of a problem when dealing with pre-pubertal children in this regard, as before puberty the sexually dismorphic anatomy is much less pronounced. So this is written under the assumption, that most people will be gender conforming relative to their gender identity (which, yes, can be totally wrong and does bend more than a bit towards stereotypes). To be fair, they specified "mere tomboyishness in girls or girlish behaviour in boys is not sufficient" .

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 11 insightful - 3 fun11 insightful - 2 fun12 insightful - 3 fun -  (6 children)

know of a gender-non-conforming (gender non conforming relative to their gender identity that is) transgender man. That means, that, when he puts on a dress, he wants to be seen as and treated like a man wearing a dress, not a woman wearing a dress.

And what difference is there in treatment of a man or a woman that is not sexism?

[–]Taln_Reich 2 insightful - 3 fun2 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 3 fun -  (5 children)

know of a gender-non-conforming (gender non conforming relative to their gender identity that is) transgender man. That means, that, when he puts on a dress, he wants to be seen as and treated like a man wearing a dress, not a woman wearing a dress.

And what difference is there in treatment of a man or a woman that is not sexism?

If any difference in treatment regarding the sexes is sexism, then "Gender Critical Feminism" is quite sexist

Piece of Evidence a.) this Ovarit (a notorious Plattform for gender critical feminists) thread, where a comics from what was assumed to be a transgender woman was posted, that, in fact, was made by a non-binary person of the female birth sex. There is quite a stark difference between how they considered the whole thing depending on whether this mistake or not. So, quite clearly, they did not treat what they considered a "man" and what they considered a "woman" the same, even when it was the same action.

Piece of Evidence b.) the constant banging about sex-seggregated spaces or other subjects where the inclusion of transgender women in previously "female only"-groups is protested by gender critical feminists. If there were to be no difference in treatment between man and woman, a man entering the womans locker room would be treated the same as a woman entering the womans locker room (or, more likely, sex-seggregated spaces would cease to exist because there would be no point towards them anymore). This is quite clearly an anathema to everything "Gender Critical Feminists" believe.

Piece of Ecidence c.) sexual orientation. The simultanous facts, that sexual orientation is unchangable while at the same time it is rather rare for someone to be a bisexual with a perfect 50-50-split means that it is literally impossible for there to be no difference in treatment.

(Note: this list was not making an argument over what this means in terms of the "A desire to live and be accepted as a member of the opposite sex"-criteria)

So, clearly, a mere difference in treatment between a man and a woman is not, by itself, sexism. Sexism is more the explicit or implicit belief about the superiority/inferiority of one sex, discrimination, prejudice, or stereotyping based on sex or actions arising from these beliefs.

[–]emptiedriver 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

So, clearly, a mere difference in treatment between a man and a woman is not, by itself, sexism.

your examples are: a) someone who does or doesn't have the same life experience and b) & c) someone who is or isn't biologically the same.

These are not superficial reasons to treat someone differently but simply a recognition of actual differences that can be taken into account in certain scenarios. They don't have to always be a big deal - physical difference won't matter in a written exam - but sometimes they're a factor. Superficial change like which clothing you wear does not change your past or your physical capacities, so will only make a difference on a sexist level - what people assume about you, not what you are actually capable of.

[–]Taln_Reich 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

a) someone who does or doesn't have the same life experience

correction: assumed life experience . Not everyone with testicles is socialized the same, not everyone with ovaries is assumed the same. So when you assume that someone who you perceive as a man was socialized along the lines of some monolithic "testicle-haver"-socialisation, and your treatment of this person does differ based on this assumöption, then that is a difference in treatment not based on physical differences.

b) someone who is or isn't biologically the same.

Bathroom choice has nothing to do with biology. A woman can use the men's bathroom without problems.

Superficial change like which clothing you wear does not change your past or your physical capacities, so will only make a difference on a sexist level - what people assume about you, not what you are actually capable of.

And medical transitioning cuts a lot deeper than that. Exogonous estrogen does cause an atrophy in muscle mass, meaning a decline in physical capacity (and the study I'm getting beaten over the head here regarding the sport issue assumes constant training - which non-athlethes will not do) and while it doesn't change the past, when a transgender woman is perceived as female, she will be treated as such, and therefore will have the respective live experiences.

[–]emptiedriver 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

correction: assumed life experience . Not everyone with testicles is socialized the same, not everyone with ovaries is assumed the same. So when you assume that someone who you perceive as a man was socialized along the lines of some monolithic "testicle-haver"-socialisation, and your treatment of this person does differ based on this assumöption, then that is a difference in treatment not based on physical differences.

Well, socialization is complicated, I'll grant you that, but it is still a real phenomenon. To say that there is not a monolithic male socialization or a monolithic female socialization is simplistic. Obviously there are many other factors that affect how someone is raised - rich, poor, black, white, american, west african, muslim, protestant, sick, healthy, oldest child, middle child - and on and on - but whether someone is male or female is one of these factors and tends to be a fairly significant one as it is continuous outside the family and even if circumstances change. Different cultures have overcome patriarchal structures to different degrees, but pretty much every current day society has a root thinking of "might makes right", and therefore that men are the justice bearers and women are secondary, helper-outers who need to be protected, and who will care for the young. It can be subconscious but evident in what people are paid, opportunities they're given based on the sex of their name, and the continuous shared stories of females about their experiences.

Bathroom choice has nothing to do with biology. A woman can use the men's bathroom without problems.

Of course, your examples were actually locker rooms and sexual relationships. Bathrooms may not be that big a deal, but showering next to people is more problematic and having sex is pretty notable.

And medical transitioning cuts a lot deeper than that. Exogonous estrogen does cause an atrophy in muscle mass, meaning a decline in physical capacity

There are plenty of ways to atrophy your male muscles. That doesn't make you a woman.

while it doesn't change the past, when a transgender woman is perceived as female, she will be treated as such, and therefore will have the respective live experiences.

So a transgender woman wants to be treated as a woman in that they want to undergo discrimination?

[–]Taln_Reich 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

opportunities they're given based on the sex of their name

And that is a clear cut example right here. Names aren't sexed, they are gendered. Choosing a new name befitting their gender identity is one of the first thing a transgender person does in terms of social transitioning.

Bathrooms may not be that big a deal, but showering next to people is more problematic and having sex is pretty notable.

Which is why locker rooms/public showers should also be cubicles.

And medical transitioning cuts a lot deeper than that. Exogonous estrogen does cause an atrophy in muscle mass, meaning a decline in physical capacity

There are plenty of ways to atrophy your male muscles. That doesn't make you a woman.

you were the one who mentioned "Superficial change like which clothing you wear does not change ... or your physical capacities"

So a transgender woman wants to be treated as a woman in that they want to undergo discrimination?

A transgender woman might not enjoy being hit by gender-based discrimination against women, but given that there is a lot more stigma against transgender people than against women, and transgender women still found it necessary to transition and accept that stigma in order to alleviate their gender dysphoria, experiencing gender-based discrimination against women pretty much comes with the territory. This is why intersectional feminism is a thing.

[–]emptiedriver 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

well it's clear you think women are just weaker men who experience more discrimination, and that men can turn into women by atrophying their muscles and changing their names.

I disagree with that. I think women's bodies have other differences and capacities, a side effect of which is less muscle mass and upper body strength, but which is not simply equivalent to being weak men. Likewise, while women experience discrimination, it is not the full experience of being a woman or growng up as a woman, and simply running into occasionally being mistaken for a woman does not mean you now understand the various series of expectations, fears, dismissals and general attitudes that tend to come with having a female body.

A lot of it is having a body that you or other people hope or are afraid can get pregnant, since that is a big component of life. It's a cause of anxiety, planning, determination, concern, all sorts of interlocking states of mind that may be pretty subtle at a young age but for a while at least have an effect. Every one of us exists because someone went through a pregnancy. Even if you don't use it, your body still prepares a nest each month which is noticeable. And it causes a category to be created around women: the ones who care for babies. That has an impact throughout your life... which you can read about if you want to, I'm not going to explain all of feminism to you, but the point is, being a woman is not being a weak man. It is a whole different sex.

[–]BiologyIsReal[S] 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (13 children)

The concerns that have been dismissed as "mere bigotry" have already been refuted. And why do you think it's only women who can't bring up those concerns - do you think there has never been a man these arguments and had been similarily dismissed?

Do you think the preference of gender identity over sex affects both men and women equally? Do you think a woman and man speaking out in favour of sex are given the same treatment? You keep saying we can't know what genitals a person have without pulling down their pants, but many transactivists never have a doubt about what kind of person to send the death and rape threats.

I'm pretty sure (since you mentioned abortion restrictions in this context) they aren't pushing for harsher restrictions there.

Transactivist here have supported the abortion bill that passed last December and the previous law proposals regarding this, too. I wouldn't say this totally altruistic of them because they also make sure the bill used inclusive language despite that only a woman would ever need an abortion.

However, the gender identity law has been used to erase sex segreggated spaces. A few examples:

A trans natal male convicted of violence against women was sent to a women's prisson where he impregnated a fellow inmate.

A trans natal female was sent to a men's prisson despite her protests. Sorry, I'm not sure if there is a version in English of this story

There is Mara Gómez, a trans natal male who was allowed to play in the top division of female football. He was treated like a brave hero by local media. There are other cases of trans natal males competing in female categories, but Gómez is the most famous one.

Besides how it affects women, there are other problems with this law in particular regarding minors. Under this law, any minor can request to change of the sex marker of their document with the approval of their parents. Kids as young as 5 (five, yes, five, this is absolutely not a typo) have been allowed to do this. Any trans identified person is allowed to request hormonal treatment on demand. This include minors as long they have their parent's approval. Hormonal treatment for them includes puberty blockers, which are said to be reversible in local media. Surgeries on minors are allowed with parental aproval and a judicial order. I've read a news story where a 16 year-old natal female was allowed to undergone a double mastectomy on this basis. News stories regarding trans identified kids read more like propaganda. Keira Bell's case was barely covered here. I can give you links if you want, but they are all in Spanish.

the desire to be perceived as and treated as the sex of the gender identity they identify as. Let me bring an example. I know of a gender-non-conforming (gender non conforming relative to their gender identity that is) transgender man. That means, that, when he puts on a dress, he wants to be seen as and treated like a man wearing a dress, not a woman wearing a dress.

But what does being seen and treated as a man means? Is only about being told "yes, you're totally a man"? Or is there something more?

[–]Taln_Reich 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (12 children)

Do you think a woman and man speaking out in favour of sex are given the same treatment?

the same treatment? Maybe, maybe not, I don't know. But I hardly think that a man bringing fourth the exact same arguments wouldn't have them dismissed as bigotry either.

Transactivist here have supported the abortion bill that passed last December and the previous law proposals regarding this, too.

Of course they were. Why wouldn't they, given what the legal situation regarding abortions was before (going of your description)

I wouldn't say this totally altruistic of them because they also make sure the bill used inclusive language despite that only a woman would ever need an abortion.

do you know what happens when inclusive language is not used? There was a case where a transgender man that was pregnant and in need of an abortion was denied said abortion, because the law in question spoke of "women who are pregnant", not "people who are pregnant" or "women and other people who are pregnant". The transgender rights movement was argueing for the law in question to be changed to fix this oversight. Gender Critical feminists were fighting against this change, meaning they were literally forcing this man to carry a pregnancy against his will. That is why inclusive language is important, and it is a lot more than mere "hurt genderfeelz".

There is Mara Gómez, a trans natal male who was allowed to play in the top division of female football. He was treated like a brave hero by local media. There are other cases of trans natal males competing in female categories, but Gómez is the most famous one.

if transgender women have to compete in the mens division, does that mean that transgender men are having to compete in the womens division - even after having been on hormones fopr year? Because there is a case like that, where a transgender men, that had been on HRT and wanted to compete in a contact sport in the men's category. He was forced into the women's category, because the rules were, that the divisons were based on birth sex. Due to the hightend muscle mass resulting from HRT, the transgender man was signigicantly stronger then his competitor, resulting in his competitor being injured. Then this story was taken by gender critical people and misrepresented in such a way, that readers were left under the impression, that this had been a case of a transgender woman beating up some vastly outmatchend non-transgender woman.

Besides how it affects women, there are other problems with this law in particular regarding minors. Under this law, any minor can request to change of the sex marker of their document with the approval of their parents. Kids as young as 5 (five, yes, five, this is absolutely not a typo) have been allowed to do this.

and what does changing ones legal gender mean in practice (other than changing what is on the passport - by the way, the personal ID in my country doesn't even list gender or sex)?

But what does being seen and treated as a man means? Is only about being told "yes, you're totally a man"? Or is there something more?

That, when you look at them, you perceive them instinctivly as sex/gender whose gender identity they are, and act acording to this perception. So, essentially, a transgender women/transgender man wants that, when a onlooker with no knowledge of them being trans perceives them, this onlooker perceives a woman/man, and treat them like the onlooker would treat a non-transgender woman/man doing the same things.

I remeber that there was a post about the mixed feelings transgender people experience over poor treatment based on being perceived as the sex/gender whose gender identity they are (say, for example, transgender women experiencing sexual harassement from men (mixed, because it is simultanously feeling bad over the poor treatment and feeling good over being perceived the way they want to). For the transgender men, I don't recall what their experiences in this regard were about, but there were some). So for the gender-non-conforming (gender non conforming relative to their gender identity that is) transgender man example, imagine him walking by an onlooker, that despises crossdressers. If the onlooker perceives the gnc-trans man as a man wearing a dress, the onlookers reaction will be very different from them perceiving a woman wearing a dress. So, if this onlookers reaction will be in line with perceiving the gnc-trans man as a man, the trans man will be left with this mixed feeling, on the one hand succeding at being perceived the way he wants to, on the other of course the negative feeling from being treated poorly. For positive or neutral actions obviously there isn't such a negative feeling, meaning the general feeling is not mixed. (Note: I chose negative treatment arising from being perceived as the sex/gender whose gender identity they are to clarify, that this is not about politely pretending that the transgender man is a man, but about there being no such pretense).

Note, that there is also the desire, that, if the transgender person informs other people over them being transgender, people don't start treating them differently because of that.

[–]BiologyIsReal[S] 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

the same treatment? Maybe, maybe not, I don't know. But I hardly think that a man bringing fourth the exact same arguments wouldn't have them dismissed as bigotry either.

So, you saw all the evidence of the death and rape threaths sent by many transactivists, but you din't see who were the target of those threaths?

do you know what happens when inclusive language is not used? There was a case where a transgender man that was pregnant and in need of an abortion was denied said abortion, because the law in question spoke of "women who are pregnant", not "people who are pregnant" or "women and other people who are pregnant". The transgender rights movement was argueing for the law in question to be changed to fix this oversight. Gender Critical feminists were fighting against this change, meaning they were literally forcing this man to carry a pregnancy against his will. That is why inclusive language is important, and it is a lot more than mere "hurt genderfeelz".

This is ridiculous. Not all females can (or want to) get pregnant, but only females can regardless of how they identify. Everyones uderstand this, regardless that so many people nowadays like to pretend otherwise. Your hypothetycal scenario could only happen not because of gender critical feminists, but because of people like you that are so keen on ignoring all what we know about human biology.

if transgender women have to compete in the mens division, does that mean that transgender men are having to compete in the womens division - even after having been on hormones fopr year? Because there is a case like that, where a transgender men, that had been on HRT and wanted to compete in a contact sport in the men's category. He was forced into the women's category, because the rules were, that the divisons were based on birth sex. Due to the hightend muscle mass resulting from HRT, the transgender man was signigicantly stronger then his competitor, resulting in his competitor being injured. Then this story was taken by gender critical people and misrepresented in such a way, that readers were left under the impression, that this had been a case of a transgender woman beating up some vastly outmatchend non-transgender woman.

  1. Source?

  2. Doping is not allowed in either category.

and what does changing ones legal gender mean in practice (other than changing what is on the passport - by the way, the personal ID in my country doesn't even list gender or sex)?

Nobody legally changes their gender here. You legally change your sex because that is what is marked in our documents. The word gender may have started to be used in areas outside of grammar, but the word sex is still widely used in Spanish-speaking countries. It's English speakers who started the practice of using the word gender as an euphemism for sex, something transactivists have taken full advantage of.

[–]Taln_Reich 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (7 children)

This is ridiculous. Not all females can (or want to) get pregnant, but only females can regardless of how they identify. Everyones uderstand this, regardless that so many people nowadays like to pretend otherwise. Your hypothetycal scenario could only happen not because of gender critical feminists, but because of people like you that are so keen on ignoring all what we know about human biology.

The problem is the conflation of social category and biological category. The words "women" and "men" do refer to the social categories, because, well, if they don't, what words do?

Source?

Okay, I remembered it wrong that his competitors were injured, they only forfeited because they feared injury https://www.theguardian.com/society/2018/feb/25/transgender-wrestler-mack-beggs-wins-texas-girls-title

Doping is not allowed in either category.

so in what categories are medically transitioning transgender men allowed to compete? Because if they aren't allowed to compete with the men, and aren't allowed to compete with the women, you are litterally forbidding them from competetive sport.

Nobody legally changes their gender here. You legally change your sex because that is what is marked in our documents. The word gender may have started to be used in areas outside of grammar, but the word sex is still widely used in Spanish-speaking countries. It's English speakers who started the practice of using the word gender as an euphemism for sex, something transactivists have taken full advantage of.

You are diverting the issue. There is no actual difference between "legal sex" and "legal gender" - both are what the law considers you to be. btw. in my language the word for "sex" is "Geschlecht", which is also the word used in the relevant law for changing ones legal sex/legal gender. (if someone wants to make a point about differentiating sex and gender identity, the respektive words would be "Geschlecht" and "Geschlechtsidentität").

[–]BiologyIsReal[S] 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

The problem is the conflation of social category and biological category. The words "women" and "men" do refer to the social categories, because, well, if they don't, what words do?

The word "woman" and "man" refer to biological categories. The problem lies in the transactivists trying to rewrite history and biology.

so in what categories are medically transitioning transgender men allowed to compete? Because if they aren't allowed to compete with the men, and aren't allowed to compete with the women, you are litterally forbidding them from competetive sport.

Technically, they're the ones limiting themselves by choosing testosterone over sports. I think what peakingatthemoment about trans males applies here too. You need to understand you may have to give up things before "transition".

You are diverting the issue. There is no actual difference between "legal sex" and "legal gender" - both are what the law considers you to be. btw. in my language the word for "sex" is "Geschlecht", which is also the word used in the relevant law for changing ones legal sex/legal gender. (if someone wants to make a point about differentiating sex and gender identity, the respektive words would be "Geschlecht" and "Geschlechtsidentität").

Are you seriusly f***ing lecturing me about my own language?!

BTW, I could swear you said sex and gender are not the same thing. But thank you for finally admiting transactivists are ideed redefining sex because that is exactly what I've been saying all the time.

[–]Taln_Reich 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (5 children)

The word "woman" and "man" refer to biological categories. The problem lies in the transactivists trying to rewrite history and biology.

Okay. Then I ask again. If "man" and "woman" are solely biological categories, what words do refer to the social categories?

Are you seriusly f***ing lecturing me about my own language?!

no, I was lecturing you about my language.

BTW, I could swear you said sex and gender are not the same thing. But thank you for finally admiting transactivists are ideed redefining sex because that is exactly what I've been saying all the time.

Sex and Gender are not the same thing. "Legal Sex" and "Legal Gender" are, because both refer to the same thing - what your personal ID/Passport state. Which has nothing to do with biology and only with the social categories.

[–]BiologyIsReal[S] 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Okay. Then I ask again. If "man" and "woman" are solely biological categories, what words do refer to the social categories?

There is not such a thing. Trans natal males are still treated as males and trans natal females are still treated as females. That is why everyone listens to whatever a trans natal male say. And that is why everyone ignores trans natal females unless they're pregnant.

no, I was lecturing you about my language.

I was talking about MY language and MY country and you used your language to "show" how I was wrong about what I said.

Sex and Gender are not the same thing. "Legal Sex" and "Legal Gender" are, because both refer to the same thing - what your personal ID/Passport state. Which has nothing to do with biology and only with the social categories.

LOL Congratulations! You've won the gold medal in mental gymnastics!

[–]Taln_Reich 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (3 children)

Okay. Then I ask again. If "man" and "woman" are solely biological categories, what words do refer to the social categories?

There is not such a thing. Trans natal males are still treated as males and trans natal females are still treated as females.

No they aren't (at least when passing, which for most is the goal) and they don't want to.

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

do you know what happens when inclusive language is not used? There was a case where a transgender man that was pregnant and in need of an abortion was denied said abortion, because the law in question spoke of "women who are pregnant", not "people who are pregnant" or "women and other people who are pregnant".

It's so hard for me to believe someone was denied an abortion over that. Do you have a source you can link? Also, why didn't they just say they were female/a woman (since you literally have to be to get pregnant)? If male pregnancy was actually something that could happen, abortion rights would be written in the constitution.

if transgender women have to compete in the mens division, does that mean that transgender men are having to compete in the womens division - even after having been on hormones fopr year? Because there is a case like that, where a transgender men, that had been on HRT and wanted to compete in a contact sport in the men's category. He was forced into the women's category, because the rules were, that the divisons were based on birth sex.

This us such as bad argument. A female taking performance enhancing drugs shouldn't be allowed to compete with females not taking performance enhancing drugs. Rules about this are common in like every sport. The Mack Beggs thing shouldn't have not allowed based on that, but it's not an argument for placing people in sports based on gender identity. You give up things when you transition. I feel like it's so harmful for any sort of normalization of trans people, if that's what you want, to force males into female sports. It's just so obviously unfair.

I feel like you should stop using transmen to do all the work in your arguments.

[–]Taln_Reich 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

It's so hard for me to believe someone was denied an abortion over that. Do you have a source you can link?

well, it is at least a legal possibility https://madspades.tumblr.com/post/622869974338371584 (remembered that part wrong, I think? I'm pretty sure I read something like that).

Also, why didn't they just say they were female/a woman (since you literally have to be to get pregnant)? If male pregnancy was actually something that could happen, abortion rights would be written in the constitution.

Transgender men don't say they are women, because they aren't. Transgender men are men. And since they can get pregnant, that case needs to be covered in law's gouverning abortion right.

This us such as bad argument. A female taking performance enhancing drugs shouldn't be allowed to compete with females not taking performance enhancing drugs. Rules about this are common in like every sport. The Mack Beggs thing shouldn't have not allowed based on that, but it's not an argument for placing people in sports based on gender identity. You give up things when you transition.

So if transgender men can't compete in the womens category (due to their hormone levels), and can't compete in the men's category (because you are argueing for birth sex based competition), well, where can they compete? And, no, this is not comparable to someone taking performance enhancing drugs. He didn't take testosterone to improve his performance, he took testosterone to deal with his gender dysphoria.

I feel like you should stop using transmen to do all the work in your arguments.

Transgender men are as much a part of the transgender issue as transgender women. So whenever people argue against division based on gender identity instead of birth sex, that means sorting cisgender women and transgender men together. And that needs to be pointed out.

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

well, it is at least a legal possibility https://madspades.tumblr.com/post/622869974338371584 (remembered that part wrong, I think? I'm pretty sure I read something like that).

Okay, so it did not happen.

Transgender men don't say they are women, because they aren't. Transgender men are men. And since they can get pregnant, that case needs to be covered in law's gouverning abortion right.

TMAM and TWAW doesn’t mean anything and can’t be explained. It just shuts down conversation. Only female people can get pregnant. I don’t see any laws needing to changed.

So if transgender men can't compete in the womens category (due to their hormone levels), and can't compete in the men's category (because you are argueing for birth sex based competition), well, where can they compete?

I’m not arguing for birth sex based competition. I don’t think trans people should be participating in competitive sports at all (unless some wants to compete with males, since there is no potential advantage there). As I said before, you give up things when you transition. It’s more important to keep sports fair and safe for women and girls.

And, no, this is not comparable to someone taking performance enhancing drugs. He didn't take testosterone to improve his performance, he took testosterone to deal with his gender dysphoria.

I don’t know why the reason they are taking it matters. The practical outcome is the same.

Transgender men are as much a part of the transgender issue as transgender women.

I just don’t like male trans people hiding behind female trans people. It’s not fair to make females do all the work for you, especially when the issue for sports isn’t about females, it’s about males.