QT: Who is trans “inclusive” language really for?

submitted by BiologyIsReal from self.GCdebatesQT

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[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 11 insightful - 3 fun11 insightful - 2 fun12 insightful - 3 fun -  (6 children)

know of a gender-non-conforming (gender non conforming relative to their gender identity that is) transgender man. That means, that, when he puts on a dress, he wants to be seen as and treated like a man wearing a dress, not a woman wearing a dress.

And what difference is there in treatment of a man or a woman that is not sexism?

[–]Taln_Reich 2 insightful - 3 fun2 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 3 fun -  (5 children)

know of a gender-non-conforming (gender non conforming relative to their gender identity that is) transgender man. That means, that, when he puts on a dress, he wants to be seen as and treated like a man wearing a dress, not a woman wearing a dress.

And what difference is there in treatment of a man or a woman that is not sexism?

If any difference in treatment regarding the sexes is sexism, then "Gender Critical Feminism" is quite sexist

Piece of Evidence a.) this Ovarit (a notorious Plattform for gender critical feminists) thread, where a comics from what was assumed to be a transgender woman was posted, that, in fact, was made by a non-binary person of the female birth sex. There is quite a stark difference between how they considered the whole thing depending on whether this mistake or not. So, quite clearly, they did not treat what they considered a "man" and what they considered a "woman" the same, even when it was the same action.

Piece of Evidence b.) the constant banging about sex-seggregated spaces or other subjects where the inclusion of transgender women in previously "female only"-groups is protested by gender critical feminists. If there were to be no difference in treatment between man and woman, a man entering the womans locker room would be treated the same as a woman entering the womans locker room (or, more likely, sex-seggregated spaces would cease to exist because there would be no point towards them anymore). This is quite clearly an anathema to everything "Gender Critical Feminists" believe.

Piece of Ecidence c.) sexual orientation. The simultanous facts, that sexual orientation is unchangable while at the same time it is rather rare for someone to be a bisexual with a perfect 50-50-split means that it is literally impossible for there to be no difference in treatment.

(Note: this list was not making an argument over what this means in terms of the "A desire to live and be accepted as a member of the opposite sex"-criteria)

So, clearly, a mere difference in treatment between a man and a woman is not, by itself, sexism. Sexism is more the explicit or implicit belief about the superiority/inferiority of one sex, discrimination, prejudice, or stereotyping based on sex or actions arising from these beliefs.

[–]emptiedriver 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

So, clearly, a mere difference in treatment between a man and a woman is not, by itself, sexism.

your examples are: a) someone who does or doesn't have the same life experience and b) & c) someone who is or isn't biologically the same.

These are not superficial reasons to treat someone differently but simply a recognition of actual differences that can be taken into account in certain scenarios. They don't have to always be a big deal - physical difference won't matter in a written exam - but sometimes they're a factor. Superficial change like which clothing you wear does not change your past or your physical capacities, so will only make a difference on a sexist level - what people assume about you, not what you are actually capable of.

[–]Taln_Reich 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

a) someone who does or doesn't have the same life experience

correction: assumed life experience . Not everyone with testicles is socialized the same, not everyone with ovaries is assumed the same. So when you assume that someone who you perceive as a man was socialized along the lines of some monolithic "testicle-haver"-socialisation, and your treatment of this person does differ based on this assumöption, then that is a difference in treatment not based on physical differences.

b) someone who is or isn't biologically the same.

Bathroom choice has nothing to do with biology. A woman can use the men's bathroom without problems.

Superficial change like which clothing you wear does not change your past or your physical capacities, so will only make a difference on a sexist level - what people assume about you, not what you are actually capable of.

And medical transitioning cuts a lot deeper than that. Exogonous estrogen does cause an atrophy in muscle mass, meaning a decline in physical capacity (and the study I'm getting beaten over the head here regarding the sport issue assumes constant training - which non-athlethes will not do) and while it doesn't change the past, when a transgender woman is perceived as female, she will be treated as such, and therefore will have the respective live experiences.

[–]emptiedriver 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

correction: assumed life experience . Not everyone with testicles is socialized the same, not everyone with ovaries is assumed the same. So when you assume that someone who you perceive as a man was socialized along the lines of some monolithic "testicle-haver"-socialisation, and your treatment of this person does differ based on this assumöption, then that is a difference in treatment not based on physical differences.

Well, socialization is complicated, I'll grant you that, but it is still a real phenomenon. To say that there is not a monolithic male socialization or a monolithic female socialization is simplistic. Obviously there are many other factors that affect how someone is raised - rich, poor, black, white, american, west african, muslim, protestant, sick, healthy, oldest child, middle child - and on and on - but whether someone is male or female is one of these factors and tends to be a fairly significant one as it is continuous outside the family and even if circumstances change. Different cultures have overcome patriarchal structures to different degrees, but pretty much every current day society has a root thinking of "might makes right", and therefore that men are the justice bearers and women are secondary, helper-outers who need to be protected, and who will care for the young. It can be subconscious but evident in what people are paid, opportunities they're given based on the sex of their name, and the continuous shared stories of females about their experiences.

Bathroom choice has nothing to do with biology. A woman can use the men's bathroom without problems.

Of course, your examples were actually locker rooms and sexual relationships. Bathrooms may not be that big a deal, but showering next to people is more problematic and having sex is pretty notable.

And medical transitioning cuts a lot deeper than that. Exogonous estrogen does cause an atrophy in muscle mass, meaning a decline in physical capacity

There are plenty of ways to atrophy your male muscles. That doesn't make you a woman.

while it doesn't change the past, when a transgender woman is perceived as female, she will be treated as such, and therefore will have the respective live experiences.

So a transgender woman wants to be treated as a woman in that they want to undergo discrimination?

[–]Taln_Reich 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

opportunities they're given based on the sex of their name

And that is a clear cut example right here. Names aren't sexed, they are gendered. Choosing a new name befitting their gender identity is one of the first thing a transgender person does in terms of social transitioning.

Bathrooms may not be that big a deal, but showering next to people is more problematic and having sex is pretty notable.

Which is why locker rooms/public showers should also be cubicles.

And medical transitioning cuts a lot deeper than that. Exogonous estrogen does cause an atrophy in muscle mass, meaning a decline in physical capacity

There are plenty of ways to atrophy your male muscles. That doesn't make you a woman.

you were the one who mentioned "Superficial change like which clothing you wear does not change ... or your physical capacities"

So a transgender woman wants to be treated as a woman in that they want to undergo discrimination?

A transgender woman might not enjoy being hit by gender-based discrimination against women, but given that there is a lot more stigma against transgender people than against women, and transgender women still found it necessary to transition and accept that stigma in order to alleviate their gender dysphoria, experiencing gender-based discrimination against women pretty much comes with the territory. This is why intersectional feminism is a thing.

[–]emptiedriver 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

well it's clear you think women are just weaker men who experience more discrimination, and that men can turn into women by atrophying their muscles and changing their names.

I disagree with that. I think women's bodies have other differences and capacities, a side effect of which is less muscle mass and upper body strength, but which is not simply equivalent to being weak men. Likewise, while women experience discrimination, it is not the full experience of being a woman or growng up as a woman, and simply running into occasionally being mistaken for a woman does not mean you now understand the various series of expectations, fears, dismissals and general attitudes that tend to come with having a female body.

A lot of it is having a body that you or other people hope or are afraid can get pregnant, since that is a big component of life. It's a cause of anxiety, planning, determination, concern, all sorts of interlocking states of mind that may be pretty subtle at a young age but for a while at least have an effect. Every one of us exists because someone went through a pregnancy. Even if you don't use it, your body still prepares a nest each month which is noticeable. And it causes a category to be created around women: the ones who care for babies. That has an impact throughout your life... which you can read about if you want to, I'm not going to explain all of feminism to you, but the point is, being a woman is not being a weak man. It is a whole different sex.