QT: Who is trans “inclusive” language really for?

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[–]BiologyIsReal[S] 14 insightful - 1 fun14 insightful - 0 fun15 insightful - 1 fun -  (26 children)

And who decides whether sex or gender identity is relevant in a given context?

If gender identity is not based on stereotypes, then in what is it based? How can a male feel like a woman. I'm a woman and I've no idea what is feeling like a woman.

[–]Taln_Reich 1 insightful - 3 fun1 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 3 fun -  (25 children)

And who decides whether sex or gender identity is relevant in a given context?

this needs to be discussed in a broader societal discussion. Based on what is discussed, it might make sense to go either by sex, gender identity or make some qualifications towards the state of transition for going by gender identity. It really depends on the details.

If gender identity is not based on stereotypes, then in what is it based?

it is based on what physical sexed anatomy you would be comfortable or uncomfortable with having. If it distresses you to have the typical primary and secondary sexual characteristics of your sex, regardless of the social enviroment, your gender identity might be in a misallignment with your sex. If it doesn't, then your gender identity alligns with your sex.

Essentially, there is a thought experiment (meant for self-reflection for people uncertain of whether they are transgender or just don't like their gender role/gender stereotypes): imagine you are in an enviroment without gender roles/gender stereotypes (variations are either a society without gender roles/gender stereotypes or a otherwise deserted island) and have the chance to irreversibly change your physical sexed anatomy to the opposite one (or an "neither","in between" or "parts of both" for nonbinary transgender ) would you do it?

How can a male feel like a woman. I'm a woman and I've no idea what is feeling like a woman.

The answer is, that the "I am a man/woman because I feel like a man/woman" expression is an oversimplification, that is unfortunately often misunderstood.

[–]BiologyIsReal[S] 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (24 children)

this needs to be discussed in a broader societal discussion. Based on what is discussed, it might make sense to go either by sex, gender identity or make some qualifications towards the state of transition for going by gender identity. It really depends on the details.

But who is allowed to take part in this disscussion? Many changes in law regarding trans issues are happening behind closed doors and media coverage is one sided in favour of gender identity. Women's concerns are dismissed time and time again. Any woman who speak out in favour of sex risks being threatened, smeared and de-platafformed. So, how can we have a debate about whether sex or gender identity is more relevant if only one side is allowed to talk?

it is based on what physical sexed anatomy you would be comfortable or uncomfortable with having. If it distresses you to have the typical primary and secondary sexual characteristics of your sex, regardless of the social enviroment, your gender identity might be in a misallignment with your sex. If it doesn't, then your gender identity alligns with your sex.

Essentially, there is a thought experiment (meant for self-reflection for people uncertain of whether they are transgender or just don't like their gender role/gender stereotypes): imagine you are in an enviroment without gender roles/gender stereotypes (variations are either a society without gender roles/gender stereotypes or a otherwise deserted island) and have the chance to irreversibly change your physical sexed anatomy to the opposite one (or an "neither","in between" or "parts of both" for nonbinary transgender ) would you do it?

Maybe you think that gender identity is about distress over one's sex, but there are many trans people and allies who don't think that is the case.

You can be diagnosed with gender dysphoria whithout such distress according to the DMS-5, for example. And, under the "gender affirming treatment" paradigm, it's doubtful that a therapist is allowed to question a patient's gender identity, anyway.

There are many trans natal males who like their "girldicks" very much and have no problem saying so. And they say their gender identities are as valid.

In the thread about sexual attraction, I told you self-ID was legalized in Argentina. Here, you can change the sex markers of your document without a clinical diagnosis or a judicial order. You're not required to undergone any kind of "medical transition" to do so, either before or after. You just need to say you're really a woman (or a man) despite not being born one. The law that makes this possible is commonly known as the gender identity law and gender identity is mentioned in the law text itself. There are a few other countries with similar laws and many transactivists are campaigning to expand the list.

Also, I've seen several instances of transactivists talking about forced sterelizations in reference of the requirement of undergoing genital surgery before changing your legal sex in certain countries.

The answer is, that the "I am a man/woman because I feel like a man/woman" expression is an oversimplification, that is unfortunately often misunderstood.

So, what does this expression mean then?

[–]Taln_Reich 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (23 children)

But who is allowed to take part in this disscussion? Many changes in law regarding trans issues are happening behind closed doors and media coverage is one sided in favour of gender identity. Women's concerns are dismissed time and time again. Any woman who speak out in favour of sex risks being threatened, smeared and de-platafformed. So, how can we have a debate about whether sex or gender identity is more relevant if only one side is allowed to talk?

I am against threatening, smearing or deplattforming people just based on their opinions (the first two in general, the latter excepted for when one outright promotes hate - for example Germaine Greers infamous quote equating transgender women transitioning with rape (1) - or incites criminal actions). Also, a lot of times the "concerns" presented are just Red Herrings repeated over and over 1.

(1): here is the quote in question:

All transsexuals rape women’s bodies by reducing the real female form to an artifact, appropriating this body for themselves. However, the transsexually constructed lesbian-feminist violates women’s sexuality and spirit, as well. Rape, although it is usually done by force, can also be accomplished by deception. It is significant that in the case of the transsexually constructed lesbian-feminist, often he is able to gain entrance and a dominant position in women’s spaces because the women involved do not know he is a transsexual and he just does not happen to mention it.

You can be diagnosed with gender dysphoria whithout such distress according to the DMS-5, for example.

I'm going by the ICD-10 ( under F64.0 ) that makes it quite clear, that it is about anatomical sex and the desire for medical transitioning (2).

(2):

Transsexualism

A desire to live and be accepted as a member of the opposite sex, usually accompanied by a sense of discomfort with, or inappropriateness of, one's anatomic sex, and a wish to have surgery and hormonal treatment to make one's body as congruent as possible with one's preferred sex

And, under the "gender affirming treatment" paradigm, it's doubtful that a therapist is allowed to question a patient's gender identity, anyway.

yeah, I'm kinda sceptical about "affirmation only" (e.g. no questioning of the self diagnosed gender identity allowed). People can be wrong about themself, and when someone transitions without actually being transgender, they are going to develop gender dysphoria towards the sexed characteristics of the gender they were transitioning to. Thats why detransitioners aren't big fans of this modell.

In the thread about sexual attraction, I told you self-ID was legalized in Argentina. Here, you can change the sex markers of your document without a clinical diagnosis or a judicial order. You're not required to undergone any kind of "medical transition" to do so, either before or after. You just need to say you're really a woman (or a man) despite not being born one. The law that makes this possible is commonly known as the gender identity law and gender identity is mentioned in the law text itself. There are a few other countries with similar laws and many transactivists are campaigning to expand the list.

well, in my country a person wanting to change their legal gender needs two independent medical assesments confirming the gender identity, that the person in question had been identifying this way for at least three years and that it is considered likely that they will keep identifying this way. Far as I heard, this is a rather hardass amount of conditions.

Though, back to self ID: it kind of depends on what this changed legal gender means in practice. From what I heard, it's mostly relevant in terms of into which prison one goes (both Blaire White and Rose of Dawn have made videos regarding this, with Blaire White advocating seperated LGBT wards.)

[–]BiologyIsReal[S] 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (22 children)

A) You say that society needs to have a discussion about the issue of sex vs gender identity. But it seems you think the issue is already settled. Here you are dismissing women's concern as mere bigotry. So, are women allowed to take part on this discussion or not? Or are we allowed to participate only under trans terms? Why is never trans people the ones who have to consider women's concerns?

B) My point with all these examples was there are many people who don't agree with your view of gender identity being based on distress over one's sexed body. We can't ignore those people's position because they are the ones driving many of the legal changes. They want more countries like Argentina and less with yours. They're also pushing among other things for "gender affirming treatment" and they want to ban any alternative treatment as "conversion therapy".

But even if we go by your clinical definition of gender indentity, the ICD-10 that you quote starts the definition of transsexualism with "A desire to live and be accepted as a member of the opposite sex". What does a desire to live as the opposite sex means if not stereotypes? Also, the page you linked says this about gender identity in children (emphasis mine):

Gender identity disorder of childhood

A disorder, usually first manifest during early childhood (and always well before puberty), characterized by a persistent and intense distress about assigned sex, together with a desire to be (or insistence that one is) of the other sex. There is a persistent preoccupation with the dress and activities of the opposite sex and repudiation of the individual's own sex. The diagnosis requires a profound disturbance of the normal gender identity; mere tomboyishness in girls or girlish behaviour in boys is not sufficient. Gender identity disorders in individuals who have reached or are entering puberty should not be classified here but in F66.-

How is this not about stereotypes?

[–]Taln_Reich 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (21 children)

A) You say that society needs to have a discussion about the issue of sex vs gender identity. But it seems you think the issue is already settled. Here you are dismissing women's concern as mere bigotry. So, are women allowed to take part on this discussion or not? Or are we allowed to participate only under trans terms? Why is never trans people the ones who have to consider women's concerns?

The concerns that have been dismissed as "mere bigotry" have already been refuted. And why do you think it's only women who can't bring up those concerns - do you think there has never been a man these arguments and had been similarily dismissed?

B) My point with all these examples was there are many people who don't agree with your view of gender identity being based on distress over one's sexed body. We can ignore those people's position because they are the ones driving many of the legal changes.

that's why I am on the truscum side of the truscum-tucute-debate ("you need gender dysphoria to be trans" vs. "you don't need gender dysphoria to be trans"), Because without gender dysphoria as a criteria, transgender identity makes no sense to me.

They want more countries like Argentina and less with yours

I'm pretty sure (since you mentioned abortion restrictions in this context) they aren't pushing for harsher restrictions there.

They're also pushing among other things for "gender affirming treatment" and they want to ban any alternative treatment as "conversion therapy".

thats going to cause the amount of detransitioners to go up, causing problems for everybody. The transgender group I'm in contact with is concerned with that, and I would prefer an exploratory approach (e.g., the therapist exploring options with the patient, making sure that the patient isn't, say, confusing the constellation of "gender non conformity, internalized homophobia, homosexuality and depersonalization issues" with gender dysphoria. But this needs to be an open process, neither pushing the patient into identifying with their assigned gender, nor mindlessly affirming the initial self-diagnosis)

But even if we go by your clinical definition of gender indentity, the ICD-10 that you quote starts the definition of transsexualism with "A desire to live and be accepted as a member of the opposite sex". What does a desire to live as the opposite sex means if not stereotypes?

the desire to be perceived as and treated as the sex of the gender identity they identify as. Let me bring an example. I know of a gender-non-conforming (gender non conforming relative to their gender identity that is) transgender man. That means, that, when he puts on a dress, he wants to be seen as and treated like a man wearing a dress, not a woman wearing a dress.

Also, the page you linked says this about gender identity in children(emphasis mine):

Gender identity disorder of childhood

A disorder, usually first manifest during early childhood (and always well before puberty), characterized by a persistent and intense distress about assigned sex, together with a desire to be (or insistence that one is) of the other sex. There is a persistent preoccupation with the dress and activities of the opposite sex and repudiation of the individual's own sex. The diagnosis requires a profound disturbance of the normal gender identity; mere tomboyishness in girls or girlish behaviour in boys is not sufficient. Gender identity disorders in individuals who have reached or are entering puberty should not be classified here but in F66.-

How is this not about stereotypes?

that's a bit of a problem when dealing with pre-pubertal children in this regard, as before puberty the sexually dismorphic anatomy is much less pronounced. So this is written under the assumption, that most people will be gender conforming relative to their gender identity (which, yes, can be totally wrong and does bend more than a bit towards stereotypes). To be fair, they specified "mere tomboyishness in girls or girlish behaviour in boys is not sufficient" .

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 11 insightful - 3 fun11 insightful - 2 fun12 insightful - 3 fun -  (6 children)

know of a gender-non-conforming (gender non conforming relative to their gender identity that is) transgender man. That means, that, when he puts on a dress, he wants to be seen as and treated like a man wearing a dress, not a woman wearing a dress.

And what difference is there in treatment of a man or a woman that is not sexism?

[–]Taln_Reich 2 insightful - 3 fun2 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 3 fun -  (5 children)

know of a gender-non-conforming (gender non conforming relative to their gender identity that is) transgender man. That means, that, when he puts on a dress, he wants to be seen as and treated like a man wearing a dress, not a woman wearing a dress.

And what difference is there in treatment of a man or a woman that is not sexism?

If any difference in treatment regarding the sexes is sexism, then "Gender Critical Feminism" is quite sexist

Piece of Evidence a.) this Ovarit (a notorious Plattform for gender critical feminists) thread, where a comics from what was assumed to be a transgender woman was posted, that, in fact, was made by a non-binary person of the female birth sex. There is quite a stark difference between how they considered the whole thing depending on whether this mistake or not. So, quite clearly, they did not treat what they considered a "man" and what they considered a "woman" the same, even when it was the same action.

Piece of Evidence b.) the constant banging about sex-seggregated spaces or other subjects where the inclusion of transgender women in previously "female only"-groups is protested by gender critical feminists. If there were to be no difference in treatment between man and woman, a man entering the womans locker room would be treated the same as a woman entering the womans locker room (or, more likely, sex-seggregated spaces would cease to exist because there would be no point towards them anymore). This is quite clearly an anathema to everything "Gender Critical Feminists" believe.

Piece of Ecidence c.) sexual orientation. The simultanous facts, that sexual orientation is unchangable while at the same time it is rather rare for someone to be a bisexual with a perfect 50-50-split means that it is literally impossible for there to be no difference in treatment.

(Note: this list was not making an argument over what this means in terms of the "A desire to live and be accepted as a member of the opposite sex"-criteria)

So, clearly, a mere difference in treatment between a man and a woman is not, by itself, sexism. Sexism is more the explicit or implicit belief about the superiority/inferiority of one sex, discrimination, prejudice, or stereotyping based on sex or actions arising from these beliefs.

[–]emptiedriver 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

So, clearly, a mere difference in treatment between a man and a woman is not, by itself, sexism.

your examples are: a) someone who does or doesn't have the same life experience and b) & c) someone who is or isn't biologically the same.

These are not superficial reasons to treat someone differently but simply a recognition of actual differences that can be taken into account in certain scenarios. They don't have to always be a big deal - physical difference won't matter in a written exam - but sometimes they're a factor. Superficial change like which clothing you wear does not change your past or your physical capacities, so will only make a difference on a sexist level - what people assume about you, not what you are actually capable of.

[–]Taln_Reich 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

a) someone who does or doesn't have the same life experience

correction: assumed life experience . Not everyone with testicles is socialized the same, not everyone with ovaries is assumed the same. So when you assume that someone who you perceive as a man was socialized along the lines of some monolithic "testicle-haver"-socialisation, and your treatment of this person does differ based on this assumöption, then that is a difference in treatment not based on physical differences.

b) someone who is or isn't biologically the same.

Bathroom choice has nothing to do with biology. A woman can use the men's bathroom without problems.

Superficial change like which clothing you wear does not change your past or your physical capacities, so will only make a difference on a sexist level - what people assume about you, not what you are actually capable of.

And medical transitioning cuts a lot deeper than that. Exogonous estrogen does cause an atrophy in muscle mass, meaning a decline in physical capacity (and the study I'm getting beaten over the head here regarding the sport issue assumes constant training - which non-athlethes will not do) and while it doesn't change the past, when a transgender woman is perceived as female, she will be treated as such, and therefore will have the respective live experiences.

[–]BiologyIsReal[S] 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (13 children)

The concerns that have been dismissed as "mere bigotry" have already been refuted. And why do you think it's only women who can't bring up those concerns - do you think there has never been a man these arguments and had been similarily dismissed?

Do you think the preference of gender identity over sex affects both men and women equally? Do you think a woman and man speaking out in favour of sex are given the same treatment? You keep saying we can't know what genitals a person have without pulling down their pants, but many transactivists never have a doubt about what kind of person to send the death and rape threats.

I'm pretty sure (since you mentioned abortion restrictions in this context) they aren't pushing for harsher restrictions there.

Transactivist here have supported the abortion bill that passed last December and the previous law proposals regarding this, too. I wouldn't say this totally altruistic of them because they also make sure the bill used inclusive language despite that only a woman would ever need an abortion.

However, the gender identity law has been used to erase sex segreggated spaces. A few examples:

A trans natal male convicted of violence against women was sent to a women's prisson where he impregnated a fellow inmate.

A trans natal female was sent to a men's prisson despite her protests. Sorry, I'm not sure if there is a version in English of this story

There is Mara Gómez, a trans natal male who was allowed to play in the top division of female football. He was treated like a brave hero by local media. There are other cases of trans natal males competing in female categories, but Gómez is the most famous one.

Besides how it affects women, there are other problems with this law in particular regarding minors. Under this law, any minor can request to change of the sex marker of their document with the approval of their parents. Kids as young as 5 (five, yes, five, this is absolutely not a typo) have been allowed to do this. Any trans identified person is allowed to request hormonal treatment on demand. This include minors as long they have their parent's approval. Hormonal treatment for them includes puberty blockers, which are said to be reversible in local media. Surgeries on minors are allowed with parental aproval and a judicial order. I've read a news story where a 16 year-old natal female was allowed to undergone a double mastectomy on this basis. News stories regarding trans identified kids read more like propaganda. Keira Bell's case was barely covered here. I can give you links if you want, but they are all in Spanish.

the desire to be perceived as and treated as the sex of the gender identity they identify as. Let me bring an example. I know of a gender-non-conforming (gender non conforming relative to their gender identity that is) transgender man. That means, that, when he puts on a dress, he wants to be seen as and treated like a man wearing a dress, not a woman wearing a dress.

But what does being seen and treated as a man means? Is only about being told "yes, you're totally a man"? Or is there something more?

[–]Taln_Reich 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (12 children)

Do you think a woman and man speaking out in favour of sex are given the same treatment?

the same treatment? Maybe, maybe not, I don't know. But I hardly think that a man bringing fourth the exact same arguments wouldn't have them dismissed as bigotry either.

Transactivist here have supported the abortion bill that passed last December and the previous law proposals regarding this, too.

Of course they were. Why wouldn't they, given what the legal situation regarding abortions was before (going of your description)

I wouldn't say this totally altruistic of them because they also make sure the bill used inclusive language despite that only a woman would ever need an abortion.

do you know what happens when inclusive language is not used? There was a case where a transgender man that was pregnant and in need of an abortion was denied said abortion, because the law in question spoke of "women who are pregnant", not "people who are pregnant" or "women and other people who are pregnant". The transgender rights movement was argueing for the law in question to be changed to fix this oversight. Gender Critical feminists were fighting against this change, meaning they were literally forcing this man to carry a pregnancy against his will. That is why inclusive language is important, and it is a lot more than mere "hurt genderfeelz".

There is Mara Gómez, a trans natal male who was allowed to play in the top division of female football. He was treated like a brave hero by local media. There are other cases of trans natal males competing in female categories, but Gómez is the most famous one.

if transgender women have to compete in the mens division, does that mean that transgender men are having to compete in the womens division - even after having been on hormones fopr year? Because there is a case like that, where a transgender men, that had been on HRT and wanted to compete in a contact sport in the men's category. He was forced into the women's category, because the rules were, that the divisons were based on birth sex. Due to the hightend muscle mass resulting from HRT, the transgender man was signigicantly stronger then his competitor, resulting in his competitor being injured. Then this story was taken by gender critical people and misrepresented in such a way, that readers were left under the impression, that this had been a case of a transgender woman beating up some vastly outmatchend non-transgender woman.

Besides how it affects women, there are other problems with this law in particular regarding minors. Under this law, any minor can request to change of the sex marker of their document with the approval of their parents. Kids as young as 5 (five, yes, five, this is absolutely not a typo) have been allowed to do this.

and what does changing ones legal gender mean in practice (other than changing what is on the passport - by the way, the personal ID in my country doesn't even list gender or sex)?

But what does being seen and treated as a man means? Is only about being told "yes, you're totally a man"? Or is there something more?

That, when you look at them, you perceive them instinctivly as sex/gender whose gender identity they are, and act acording to this perception. So, essentially, a transgender women/transgender man wants that, when a onlooker with no knowledge of them being trans perceives them, this onlooker perceives a woman/man, and treat them like the onlooker would treat a non-transgender woman/man doing the same things.

I remeber that there was a post about the mixed feelings transgender people experience over poor treatment based on being perceived as the sex/gender whose gender identity they are (say, for example, transgender women experiencing sexual harassement from men (mixed, because it is simultanously feeling bad over the poor treatment and feeling good over being perceived the way they want to). For the transgender men, I don't recall what their experiences in this regard were about, but there were some). So for the gender-non-conforming (gender non conforming relative to their gender identity that is) transgender man example, imagine him walking by an onlooker, that despises crossdressers. If the onlooker perceives the gnc-trans man as a man wearing a dress, the onlookers reaction will be very different from them perceiving a woman wearing a dress. So, if this onlookers reaction will be in line with perceiving the gnc-trans man as a man, the trans man will be left with this mixed feeling, on the one hand succeding at being perceived the way he wants to, on the other of course the negative feeling from being treated poorly. For positive or neutral actions obviously there isn't such a negative feeling, meaning the general feeling is not mixed. (Note: I chose negative treatment arising from being perceived as the sex/gender whose gender identity they are to clarify, that this is not about politely pretending that the transgender man is a man, but about there being no such pretense).

Note, that there is also the desire, that, if the transgender person informs other people over them being transgender, people don't start treating them differently because of that.

[–]BiologyIsReal[S] 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

the same treatment? Maybe, maybe not, I don't know. But I hardly think that a man bringing fourth the exact same arguments wouldn't have them dismissed as bigotry either.

So, you saw all the evidence of the death and rape threaths sent by many transactivists, but you din't see who were the target of those threaths?

do you know what happens when inclusive language is not used? There was a case where a transgender man that was pregnant and in need of an abortion was denied said abortion, because the law in question spoke of "women who are pregnant", not "people who are pregnant" or "women and other people who are pregnant". The transgender rights movement was argueing for the law in question to be changed to fix this oversight. Gender Critical feminists were fighting against this change, meaning they were literally forcing this man to carry a pregnancy against his will. That is why inclusive language is important, and it is a lot more than mere "hurt genderfeelz".

This is ridiculous. Not all females can (or want to) get pregnant, but only females can regardless of how they identify. Everyones uderstand this, regardless that so many people nowadays like to pretend otherwise. Your hypothetycal scenario could only happen not because of gender critical feminists, but because of people like you that are so keen on ignoring all what we know about human biology.

if transgender women have to compete in the mens division, does that mean that transgender men are having to compete in the womens division - even after having been on hormones fopr year? Because there is a case like that, where a transgender men, that had been on HRT and wanted to compete in a contact sport in the men's category. He was forced into the women's category, because the rules were, that the divisons were based on birth sex. Due to the hightend muscle mass resulting from HRT, the transgender man was signigicantly stronger then his competitor, resulting in his competitor being injured. Then this story was taken by gender critical people and misrepresented in such a way, that readers were left under the impression, that this had been a case of a transgender woman beating up some vastly outmatchend non-transgender woman.

  1. Source?

  2. Doping is not allowed in either category.

and what does changing ones legal gender mean in practice (other than changing what is on the passport - by the way, the personal ID in my country doesn't even list gender or sex)?

Nobody legally changes their gender here. You legally change your sex because that is what is marked in our documents. The word gender may have started to be used in areas outside of grammar, but the word sex is still widely used in Spanish-speaking countries. It's English speakers who started the practice of using the word gender as an euphemism for sex, something transactivists have taken full advantage of.

[–]Taln_Reich 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (7 children)

This is ridiculous. Not all females can (or want to) get pregnant, but only females can regardless of how they identify. Everyones uderstand this, regardless that so many people nowadays like to pretend otherwise. Your hypothetycal scenario could only happen not because of gender critical feminists, but because of people like you that are so keen on ignoring all what we know about human biology.

The problem is the conflation of social category and biological category. The words "women" and "men" do refer to the social categories, because, well, if they don't, what words do?

Source?

Okay, I remembered it wrong that his competitors were injured, they only forfeited because they feared injury https://www.theguardian.com/society/2018/feb/25/transgender-wrestler-mack-beggs-wins-texas-girls-title

Doping is not allowed in either category.

so in what categories are medically transitioning transgender men allowed to compete? Because if they aren't allowed to compete with the men, and aren't allowed to compete with the women, you are litterally forbidding them from competetive sport.

Nobody legally changes their gender here. You legally change your sex because that is what is marked in our documents. The word gender may have started to be used in areas outside of grammar, but the word sex is still widely used in Spanish-speaking countries. It's English speakers who started the practice of using the word gender as an euphemism for sex, something transactivists have taken full advantage of.

You are diverting the issue. There is no actual difference between "legal sex" and "legal gender" - both are what the law considers you to be. btw. in my language the word for "sex" is "Geschlecht", which is also the word used in the relevant law for changing ones legal sex/legal gender. (if someone wants to make a point about differentiating sex and gender identity, the respektive words would be "Geschlecht" and "Geschlechtsidentität").

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

do you know what happens when inclusive language is not used? There was a case where a transgender man that was pregnant and in need of an abortion was denied said abortion, because the law in question spoke of "women who are pregnant", not "people who are pregnant" or "women and other people who are pregnant".

It's so hard for me to believe someone was denied an abortion over that. Do you have a source you can link? Also, why didn't they just say they were female/a woman (since you literally have to be to get pregnant)? If male pregnancy was actually something that could happen, abortion rights would be written in the constitution.

if transgender women have to compete in the mens division, does that mean that transgender men are having to compete in the womens division - even after having been on hormones fopr year? Because there is a case like that, where a transgender men, that had been on HRT and wanted to compete in a contact sport in the men's category. He was forced into the women's category, because the rules were, that the divisons were based on birth sex.

This us such as bad argument. A female taking performance enhancing drugs shouldn't be allowed to compete with females not taking performance enhancing drugs. Rules about this are common in like every sport. The Mack Beggs thing shouldn't have not allowed based on that, but it's not an argument for placing people in sports based on gender identity. You give up things when you transition. I feel like it's so harmful for any sort of normalization of trans people, if that's what you want, to force males into female sports. It's just so obviously unfair.

I feel like you should stop using transmen to do all the work in your arguments.

[–]Taln_Reich 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

It's so hard for me to believe someone was denied an abortion over that. Do you have a source you can link?

well, it is at least a legal possibility https://madspades.tumblr.com/post/622869974338371584 (remembered that part wrong, I think? I'm pretty sure I read something like that).

Also, why didn't they just say they were female/a woman (since you literally have to be to get pregnant)? If male pregnancy was actually something that could happen, abortion rights would be written in the constitution.

Transgender men don't say they are women, because they aren't. Transgender men are men. And since they can get pregnant, that case needs to be covered in law's gouverning abortion right.

This us such as bad argument. A female taking performance enhancing drugs shouldn't be allowed to compete with females not taking performance enhancing drugs. Rules about this are common in like every sport. The Mack Beggs thing shouldn't have not allowed based on that, but it's not an argument for placing people in sports based on gender identity. You give up things when you transition.

So if transgender men can't compete in the womens category (due to their hormone levels), and can't compete in the men's category (because you are argueing for birth sex based competition), well, where can they compete? And, no, this is not comparable to someone taking performance enhancing drugs. He didn't take testosterone to improve his performance, he took testosterone to deal with his gender dysphoria.

I feel like you should stop using transmen to do all the work in your arguments.

Transgender men are as much a part of the transgender issue as transgender women. So whenever people argue against division based on gender identity instead of birth sex, that means sorting cisgender women and transgender men together. And that needs to be pointed out.