Does GC feminism include trans men?

submitted by GenderbenderShe/her/hers from self.GCdebatesQT

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[–]CatbugMods allow rape victim blaming in this sub :) 14 insightful - 1 fun14 insightful - 0 fun15 insightful - 1 fun -  (41 children)

Transmen choosing to ignore the ramifications of being female and how that makes them members of the second sex, beards or no, does not mean that transmen are not protected by things like shelters for females, access to abortions and birth control, or the condemnation of rape culture and the selling of female sexuality.

Transmen benefit from feminism regardless of whether they acknowledge it. Listening to transmen is done, but the things transmen want are largely harmful to women. (Gender deification, transing kids, elimination of sex based spaces)

Why would we give in to demands for harm to us to please people?

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers[S] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (40 children)

Transmen choosing to ignore the ramifications of being female and how that makes them members of the second sex, beards or no, does not mean that transmen are not protected by things like shelters for females, access to abortions and birth control, or the condemnation of rape culture and the selling of female sexuality.

Yes trans men need access to abortions but not female shelters because they aren't female gender identity-wise. Their sexuality is no longer female and both men and women can be raped and rape culture should be condemned for everyone.

Transmen benefit from feminism regardless of whether they acknowledge it.

I'm talking about gender critical feminism in particular, not all feminism. Trans men, and even trans women, benefit from most branches of feminism.

Listening to transmen is done, but the things transmen want are largely harmful to women. (Gender deification, transing kids, elimination of sex based spaces)

You can respect trans men's gender identity without worshiping it. Maybe a compromise would be that only men's spaces are turned to everyone's spaces and women's spaces will be exclusively for people born women. I do oppose indiscriminately transing kids or transing kids because they are GNC, but some trans men had dysphoria since childhood. Also, in the US, you can't start hormones until 16, and you can't have SRS until 18.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 15 insightful - 1 fun15 insightful - 0 fun16 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

The full answer to this whole post is we can support them as females without supporting, respecting or even caring about any aspect of them being trans. GC feminists include all females- like, “actually born female never been male and never gonna be male because sex change isn’t possible in humans” Females- full stop. We don’t have to respect trans ideology, pretend we think they are men, center them in our feminism- none of that. We support them having the same rights, access, and equality that we support any female having. It’s that simple. Gender identity and pronouns aren’t relevant. If they were, we would include transwomen. I don’t get what’s so confusing about the responses you’re getting.

[–]CatbugMods allow rape victim blaming in this sub :) 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (35 children)

transmen choose to think they don’t need female services like shelters. When the actual need arises they aren’t as fussy.

Why do transmen want to be included or listened to by us when they don’t believe they are women or benefitting from feminism? Nobody is stopping transmen from pretending they will have a jolly time in men’s spaces and joining them.

Their sexuality is female because they are female, trans or not. They don’t suddenly get male socialisation.

US is not the world so who cares what us standards are?

[–]worried19 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

Has there ever been a verified case of a trans man choosing a male prison? I can't honestly believe any would. It's also a huge liability for the prison.

[–]CatbugMods allow rape victim blaming in this sub :) 7 insightful - 2 fun7 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 2 fun -  (4 children)

No idea but I’ve seen multiple transmen claim that if incarcerated that’s where they’d want to go. Same for inpatient mental health facilities, shelters, and restrooms.

[–]worried19 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I can buy the others. I'm not even trans and I'm happy to go into men's restrooms, but hell if I'd ever choose to be locked up with violent male criminals. There's just no fucking way. And most trans men don't have their vaginas sewn shut. They don't have phalloplasties. It's very clear they're female when they're naked.

[–]CatbugMods allow rape victim blaming in this sub :) 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I wouldn’t use men’s facilities if I was handsomely paid. These particular people were all very young, and very adamant that gender id is more meaningful than anything else.

[–]divingrightintowork 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

So where did Alec McKinney end up in prison?

[–]CatbugMods allow rape victim blaming in this sub :) 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Dunno. We didn’t really get much coverage about it in Australia.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I actually googled trans men and prisons and can't find any info on the subject, because most of the time they talk about trans women. I did search prisons on r/FTM. Trans men on that sub said that they weren't allowed in the men's prison if they didn't have bottom surgery. Usually though they were put in solitary confinement because it's too dangerous to be in the general population. However female inmates always respected their identity and used their preferred pronouns.

[–]worried19 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

It's definitely the safest option. Male prisons are dangerous enough for people who were born male. A female-born person is just not safe, especially if they haven't had any type of bottom surgery. I hope safety would win out over identity politics. There's no reason a trans man can't be in a women's prison and have the guards and fellow prisoners acknowledge him as trans.

[–]divingrightintowork 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Tony McDade was in and out of womens prisons.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (25 children)

transmen choose to think they don’t need female services like shelters. When the actual need arises they aren’t as fussy.

In that case they will go to a men's shelter, a trans shelter or a shelter for people of all genders. Many already use men's restrooms and men's locker rooms.

[–]CatbugMods allow rape victim blaming in this sub :) 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (24 children)

Where they are at more risk of harm from males. Hence the general dislike for that “solution”.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (23 children)

They can still have the option to use female facilities, if needed.

[–]CatbugMods allow rape victim blaming in this sub :) 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (22 children)

So what exactly do transmen supposedly want from us other than conversion to their belief system?

We aren’t preventing them from harming themselves and do not need to respect their gender identity to be including them in our feminism. If we treated them as men, then we would be excluding them.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (21 children)

do not need to respect their gender identity to be including them in our feminism.

That's the part I disagree with.

If we treated them as men, then we would be excluding them.

I disagree.

[–]CatbugMods allow rape victim blaming in this sub :) 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (20 children)

So back up your disagreement. I disagree is not a debate.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers[S] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (19 children)

1st point. If a feminist is racist, does their feminism include WOC? If a feminist is ableist, does their feminism include disabled women.

2nd point: You can include men in your feminism. Most branches of feminism include everyone.

[–]worried19 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Also, in the US, you can't start hormones until 16, and you can't have SRS until 18.

This is untrue. There is no lower age limit for hormones. Johanna Olson-Kennedy regularly prescribes testosterone to 12 year olds. The youngest I've found is 8 years old. A 8 year old female child was included in the following study about testosterone:

https://docs.wixstatic.com/ugd/3f4f51_a929d049f7fb46c7a72c4c86ba43869a.pdf

Olson-Kennedy gives testosterone to 13 and 14 year-old girls “frequently” and to 12 year-olds “sometimes.” She has absolutely no concern if a girl later regrets the permanent change of voice and male-pattern body and facial hair, along with potentially compromised fertility and sexual function.

https://www.transgendertrend.com/johanna-olson-kennedy-gender-affirmative-approach

Jazz Jennings was given sexual reassignment surgery at 17. Olson-Kennedy also regularly recommends children for mastectomies as young as 13:

Olson had 68 surgically diminished girls fill out her “novel” scale between one and five years after their surgery. Thirty-three of these girls were under 18 at the time of surgery. Two were only 13 years old, and five were only 14.

https://thefederalist.com/2018/09/12/u-s-doctors-performing-double-mastectomies-healthy-13-year-old-girls

Odeneal: How many patients have you referred for the chest surgery?

Olson-Kennedy: Probably about 200.

https://www.nationalreview.com/magazine/2019/12/09/the-tragedy-of-the-trans-child

The reason I'm linking these is because I've seen far too many activists claim this never happens, that no child is touched until their 16th or 18th birthday.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Thank you for sharing these links. I was under the impression that Jazz was 18 when she had SRS. Anyway, I would like more follow up research. Do these kids regret it in later life? Would trans men like to have transitioned as kids?

[–]worried19 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

No, she was 17. And she was 11 when she was put on estrogen. She was given estrogen without ever having virilized, so that's automatic sterilization right there. That's incredibly young. It's also why her surgery fell apart immediately after leaving the hospital. She had genitals the size of a child that age. She didn't have enough material for a regular vaginoplasty.

She was also 3 years old when first brought to a gender therapist. Poor kid has spent her entire life in the limelight. I feel terrible for Jazz and I will defend her against anything negative said about her because she had absolutely zero choice in what happened to her.

Anyway, I would like more follow up research. Do these kids regret it in later life? Would trans men like to have transitioned as kids?

We know there are plenty of desisters and destransitioners, some of whom started in middle school. What matters to me is whether these children are able to give informed consent. I do not think 11 and 12 and 13 year olds can give meaningful consent to permanent sterilization or irreversible surgeries. I'm not crazy about transitioning older teenagers either, but I'd prefer informed consent (even without an actual diagnosis) for everyone on their 18th birthday rather than what's happening now.