Does GC feminism include trans men?

submitted by GenderbenderShe/her/hers from self.GCdebatesQT

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[–]CatbugMods allow rape victim blaming in this sub :) 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (35 children)

transmen choose to think they don’t need female services like shelters. When the actual need arises they aren’t as fussy.

Why do transmen want to be included or listened to by us when they don’t believe they are women or benefitting from feminism? Nobody is stopping transmen from pretending they will have a jolly time in men’s spaces and joining them.

Their sexuality is female because they are female, trans or not. They don’t suddenly get male socialisation.

US is not the world so who cares what us standards are?

[–]worried19 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

Has there ever been a verified case of a trans man choosing a male prison? I can't honestly believe any would. It's also a huge liability for the prison.

[–]CatbugMods allow rape victim blaming in this sub :) 7 insightful - 2 fun7 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 2 fun -  (4 children)

No idea but I’ve seen multiple transmen claim that if incarcerated that’s where they’d want to go. Same for inpatient mental health facilities, shelters, and restrooms.

[–]worried19 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I can buy the others. I'm not even trans and I'm happy to go into men's restrooms, but hell if I'd ever choose to be locked up with violent male criminals. There's just no fucking way. And most trans men don't have their vaginas sewn shut. They don't have phalloplasties. It's very clear they're female when they're naked.

[–]CatbugMods allow rape victim blaming in this sub :) 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I wouldn’t use men’s facilities if I was handsomely paid. These particular people were all very young, and very adamant that gender id is more meaningful than anything else.

[–]divingrightintowork 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

So where did Alec McKinney end up in prison?

[–]CatbugMods allow rape victim blaming in this sub :) 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Dunno. We didn’t really get much coverage about it in Australia.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I actually googled trans men and prisons and can't find any info on the subject, because most of the time they talk about trans women. I did search prisons on r/FTM. Trans men on that sub said that they weren't allowed in the men's prison if they didn't have bottom surgery. Usually though they were put in solitary confinement because it's too dangerous to be in the general population. However female inmates always respected their identity and used their preferred pronouns.

[–]worried19 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

It's definitely the safest option. Male prisons are dangerous enough for people who were born male. A female-born person is just not safe, especially if they haven't had any type of bottom surgery. I hope safety would win out over identity politics. There's no reason a trans man can't be in a women's prison and have the guards and fellow prisoners acknowledge him as trans.

[–]divingrightintowork 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Tony McDade was in and out of womens prisons.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (25 children)

transmen choose to think they don’t need female services like shelters. When the actual need arises they aren’t as fussy.

In that case they will go to a men's shelter, a trans shelter or a shelter for people of all genders. Many already use men's restrooms and men's locker rooms.

[–]CatbugMods allow rape victim blaming in this sub :) 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (24 children)

Where they are at more risk of harm from males. Hence the general dislike for that “solution”.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (23 children)

They can still have the option to use female facilities, if needed.

[–]CatbugMods allow rape victim blaming in this sub :) 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (22 children)

So what exactly do transmen supposedly want from us other than conversion to their belief system?

We aren’t preventing them from harming themselves and do not need to respect their gender identity to be including them in our feminism. If we treated them as men, then we would be excluding them.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (21 children)

do not need to respect their gender identity to be including them in our feminism.

That's the part I disagree with.

If we treated them as men, then we would be excluding them.

I disagree.

[–]CatbugMods allow rape victim blaming in this sub :) 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (20 children)

So back up your disagreement. I disagree is not a debate.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers[S] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (19 children)

1st point. If a feminist is racist, does their feminism include WOC? If a feminist is ableist, does their feminism include disabled women.

2nd point: You can include men in your feminism. Most branches of feminism include everyone.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Can you share links/evidence of racist feminists actively speaking out and saying that they think woc should be denied female rights on the basis of them being woc?

yes, there are racist “feminists” who ignore the issues that are specific to woc. Don’t know of any saying we don’t deserve to have rights.

Can you share links/evidence of ableist feminists actively speaking out in favor of disabled females being denied female rights on the basis of them being disabled?

Yes there are “ableist feminists”, I’ve never seen them say disabled females don’t deserve female rights.

Can you explain how feminism has anything to do with men’s rights? Can you explain the difference between humanists and feminists? Of human rights and female rights? Please.

Eta- any examples should be current, not from like the 60’s or some bs

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Can you share links/evidence of racist feminists actively speaking out and saying that they think woc should be denied female rights on the basis of them being woc?

Before women had the right to vote many suffragettes were fighting for white women only. But I was just giving an analogy.

[–]CatbugMods allow rape victim blaming in this sub :) 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (14 children)

Racism has no place in feminism. Racists cannot be actual feminists.

Radical feminism has zero place for men. They need nothing from women. Most branches of feminism are absurdly male centered and accept the commodification of women’s bodies and cater to pleasing males. Radical feminism is for women. Including men makes it not radical feminism. Same as accepting gender identity.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers[S] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (13 children)

Racism has no place in feminism. Racists cannot be actual feminists.

Truth is transphobia has no place in feminism, but that's a different debate.

Radical feminism has zero place for men.

Please keep in mind there are different branches of radical feminism. Even Andrea Dworkin was supportive of trans people.

Most branches of feminism are absurdly male centered and accept the commodification of women’s bodies and cater to pleasing males.

Just because most feminists will defend J. Lo's choice to do a strip tease and support Cardi B's choice to sing about sex however they want, doesn't make them male centered.