Does GC feminism include trans men?

submitted by GenderbenderShe/her/hers from self.GCdebatesQT

sorted by:
top
newinsightfulfun
you are viewing a single comment's thread.

view the rest of the comments →

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (21 children)

do not need to respect their gender identity to be including them in our feminism.

That's the part I disagree with.

If we treated them as men, then we would be excluding them.

I disagree.

[–]CatbugMods allow rape victim blaming in this sub :) 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (20 children)

So back up your disagreement. I disagree is not a debate.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers[S] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (19 children)

1st point. If a feminist is racist, does their feminism include WOC? If a feminist is ableist, does their feminism include disabled women.

2nd point: You can include men in your feminism. Most branches of feminism include everyone.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Can you share links/evidence of racist feminists actively speaking out and saying that they think woc should be denied female rights on the basis of them being woc?

yes, there are racist “feminists” who ignore the issues that are specific to woc. Don’t know of any saying we don’t deserve to have rights.

Can you share links/evidence of ableist feminists actively speaking out in favor of disabled females being denied female rights on the basis of them being disabled?

Yes there are “ableist feminists”, I’ve never seen them say disabled females don’t deserve female rights.

Can you explain how feminism has anything to do with men’s rights? Can you explain the difference between humanists and feminists? Of human rights and female rights? Please.

Eta- any examples should be current, not from like the 60’s or some bs

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Can you share links/evidence of racist feminists actively speaking out and saying that they think woc should be denied female rights on the basis of them being woc?

Before women had the right to vote many suffragettes were fighting for white women only. But I was just giving an analogy.

[–]CatbugMods allow rape victim blaming in this sub :) 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Oh well over a hundred years ago feminism was racist so clearly it’s relevant to this discussion. 🙄 come on.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Are you acknowledging that this was decades ago? Was there no link or evidence relevant to today?

Were these white women not fighting for disabled women? Or was this just not a strong analogy?

Can you answer the rest of my questions? Is there a reason you ignored the rest?

Are you missing my points or are you ignoring them?

[–]CatbugMods allow rape victim blaming in this sub :) 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (14 children)

Racism has no place in feminism. Racists cannot be actual feminists.

Radical feminism has zero place for men. They need nothing from women. Most branches of feminism are absurdly male centered and accept the commodification of women’s bodies and cater to pleasing males. Radical feminism is for women. Including men makes it not radical feminism. Same as accepting gender identity.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers[S] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (13 children)

Racism has no place in feminism. Racists cannot be actual feminists.

Truth is transphobia has no place in feminism, but that's a different debate.

Radical feminism has zero place for men.

Please keep in mind there are different branches of radical feminism. Even Andrea Dworkin was supportive of trans people.

Most branches of feminism are absurdly male centered and accept the commodification of women’s bodies and cater to pleasing males.

Just because most feminists will defend J. Lo's choice to do a strip tease and support Cardi B's choice to sing about sex however they want, doesn't make them male centered.

[–]CatbugMods allow rape victim blaming in this sub :) 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (12 children)

Trans ideology has no place in feminism because it’s inherently sexist.

Find me a radical feminist who says feminism is for males. I’ll wait.

Oh so a woman performing a sexualised dance intended to titillate male viewers isn’t catering to men? Lmao then what is? As If Literally bending over backwards in a thong and pasties isn’t for men.

Once again, what do transmen want from gc other than for us to agree with them entirely?

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers[S] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (11 children)

Trans ideology has no place in feminism because it’s inherently sexist.

I'll argue the opposite. Someone transitioning to another gender is not sexist.

Find me a radical feminist who says feminism is for males. I’ll wait.

Andrea Dworkin supported trans rights. http://radfem.transadvocate.com/the-conversations-project/

"No Radical Feminism Can Ever Be Trans Exclusionary" article

https://theswaddle.com/feminism-that-excludes-trans-women-is-bigoted-not-radical/

TIRF Trans Inclusive Radical Feminism Facebook page

https://facebook.com/transinclusiveradfem/

In Fact, the term TERF was coined by a radical feminist and trans inclusive blogger Viv Smythe.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TERF

Oh so a woman performing a sexualised dance intended to titillate male viewers isn’t catering to men?

God forbid a woman enjoys sex! It's her sexuality. She can express it however she pleases. One of the things feminists fought for is for women to be able to express their sexuality without being told they don't value themselves or didn't have a daddy to tell her she's beautiful, etc. As long as they're happy, they're able to express their sexuality as they please. You dont have to like J Lo, or Cardi B, or listen to their music, or watch them dance.

Once again, what do transmen want from gc other than for us to agree with them entirely?

Before you make a statement about trans men as a class, listen to actual trans men. Your statements should reflect what trans men want. Stop using trans men to insult trans women. If you don't do those things than your feminism doesn't include trans men, which is OK but just be honest and dont claim your feminism includes trans men when it doesn't.

[–]CatbugMods allow rape victim blaming in this sub :) 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (10 children)

I'll argue the opposite. Someone transitioning to another gender is not sexist.

Defining women by any means other than out biology is sexist. Woman is not a feeling.

God forbid a women enjoys sex! It's her sexuality. She can express it however she pleases. One of the things feminists fought for is for women to be able to express their sexuality without being told they don't value themselves or didn't have a daddy to tell her she's beautiful, etc. As long as they're happy, they're able to express their sexuality as they please. You dont have to like J Lo, or Cardi B, or listen to their music, or watch them dance.

So their sexuality just so happens to be exactly what men like? Sure jan. pretend women wear tight leather bikinis grind on backup dancers, and do the splits cause it feels good.

I have listened to transmen. They don’t want to be part of the group. That doesn’t mean they don’t suddenly benefit from everything we are for. Disliking this fact doesn’t make it a lie. Since you’re speaking for transmen wtf do you want from us other than us abandon our belief system and adopt the gender id one? We support transmen as women because they biologically are despite your inevitable ‘no they’re not’.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

Defining women by any means other than out biology is sexist. Woman is not a feeling.

You don't have to define a woman exclusively by biology. It's not sexist.

So their sexuality just so happens to be exactly what men like? Sure jan. pretend women wear tight leather bikinis grind on backup dancers, and do the splits cause it feels good.

So women can't like the same things men like?

I have listened to transmen. They don’t want to be part of the group. That doesn’t mean they don’t suddenly benefit from everything we are for.

They don't benefit from everything you stand for, especially since GC is actively against trans ideology while trans men are literally transitioning. Heck, many of the things you stand for don't benefit passing trans men.

Since you’re speaking for transmen wtf do you want from us other than us abandon our belief system and adopt the gender id one?

If your feminism does not benefit trans men don't say it does.

We support transmen as women because they biologically are despite your inevitable ‘no they’re not’.

Supporting trans men "as women" is not supporting them.

[–]CatbugMods allow rape victim blaming in this sub :) 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

It is absolutely sexist to define woman by gender norms or by a preference for things coded as feminine.

How can you possibly think it’s not sexist to do that?

Do transmen not benefit from the right to vote? From abortions and birth control? From cervical cancer screenings or the hvp vaccine or protection from sexual violence? Otherwise they absolutely benefit from us.

Sure men and women can enjoy the same stuff but it’s absolutely ridiculous to claim that women perform in painfully tight costumes and dance in a way that just so happens to borrow moves from strip show routines. Women do that for women? Lmao.

Supporting someone’s right to education, employment, medical care, and safety has nothing to do with calling them men or women. Outside of the bubble of gender politics there are real problems that gc cares about and unless transmen magically stop needing the gyno the second they say ‘im a man now’ it’s bullshit to say they receive no support. They just don’t receive the title they want. Not getting every you want isn’t receding no support, to say so is frankly a very spoilt-child outlook.