Does GC feminism include trans men?

submitted by GenderbenderShe/her/hers from self.GCdebatesQT

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[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers[S] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (11 children)

Trans ideology has no place in feminism because it’s inherently sexist.

I'll argue the opposite. Someone transitioning to another gender is not sexist.

Find me a radical feminist who says feminism is for males. I’ll wait.

Andrea Dworkin supported trans rights. http://radfem.transadvocate.com/the-conversations-project/

"No Radical Feminism Can Ever Be Trans Exclusionary" article

https://theswaddle.com/feminism-that-excludes-trans-women-is-bigoted-not-radical/

TIRF Trans Inclusive Radical Feminism Facebook page

https://facebook.com/transinclusiveradfem/

In Fact, the term TERF was coined by a radical feminist and trans inclusive blogger Viv Smythe.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TERF

Oh so a woman performing a sexualised dance intended to titillate male viewers isn’t catering to men?

God forbid a woman enjoys sex! It's her sexuality. She can express it however she pleases. One of the things feminists fought for is for women to be able to express their sexuality without being told they don't value themselves or didn't have a daddy to tell her she's beautiful, etc. As long as they're happy, they're able to express their sexuality as they please. You dont have to like J Lo, or Cardi B, or listen to their music, or watch them dance.

Once again, what do transmen want from gc other than for us to agree with them entirely?

Before you make a statement about trans men as a class, listen to actual trans men. Your statements should reflect what trans men want. Stop using trans men to insult trans women. If you don't do those things than your feminism doesn't include trans men, which is OK but just be honest and dont claim your feminism includes trans men when it doesn't.

[–]CatbugMods allow rape victim blaming in this sub :) 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (10 children)

I'll argue the opposite. Someone transitioning to another gender is not sexist.

Defining women by any means other than out biology is sexist. Woman is not a feeling.

God forbid a women enjoys sex! It's her sexuality. She can express it however she pleases. One of the things feminists fought for is for women to be able to express their sexuality without being told they don't value themselves or didn't have a daddy to tell her she's beautiful, etc. As long as they're happy, they're able to express their sexuality as they please. You dont have to like J Lo, or Cardi B, or listen to their music, or watch them dance.

So their sexuality just so happens to be exactly what men like? Sure jan. pretend women wear tight leather bikinis grind on backup dancers, and do the splits cause it feels good.

I have listened to transmen. They don’t want to be part of the group. That doesn’t mean they don’t suddenly benefit from everything we are for. Disliking this fact doesn’t make it a lie. Since you’re speaking for transmen wtf do you want from us other than us abandon our belief system and adopt the gender id one? We support transmen as women because they biologically are despite your inevitable ‘no they’re not’.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

Defining women by any means other than out biology is sexist. Woman is not a feeling.

You don't have to define a woman exclusively by biology. It's not sexist.

So their sexuality just so happens to be exactly what men like? Sure jan. pretend women wear tight leather bikinis grind on backup dancers, and do the splits cause it feels good.

So women can't like the same things men like?

I have listened to transmen. They don’t want to be part of the group. That doesn’t mean they don’t suddenly benefit from everything we are for.

They don't benefit from everything you stand for, especially since GC is actively against trans ideology while trans men are literally transitioning. Heck, many of the things you stand for don't benefit passing trans men.

Since you’re speaking for transmen wtf do you want from us other than us abandon our belief system and adopt the gender id one?

If your feminism does not benefit trans men don't say it does.

We support transmen as women because they biologically are despite your inevitable ‘no they’re not’.

Supporting trans men "as women" is not supporting them.

[–]CatbugMods allow rape victim blaming in this sub :) 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

It is absolutely sexist to define woman by gender norms or by a preference for things coded as feminine.

How can you possibly think it’s not sexist to do that?

Do transmen not benefit from the right to vote? From abortions and birth control? From cervical cancer screenings or the hvp vaccine or protection from sexual violence? Otherwise they absolutely benefit from us.

Sure men and women can enjoy the same stuff but it’s absolutely ridiculous to claim that women perform in painfully tight costumes and dance in a way that just so happens to borrow moves from strip show routines. Women do that for women? Lmao.

Supporting someone’s right to education, employment, medical care, and safety has nothing to do with calling them men or women. Outside of the bubble of gender politics there are real problems that gc cares about and unless transmen magically stop needing the gyno the second they say ‘im a man now’ it’s bullshit to say they receive no support. They just don’t receive the title they want. Not getting every you want isn’t receding no support, to say so is frankly a very spoilt-child outlook.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

It is absolutely sexist to define woman by gender norms or by a preference for things coded as feminine.

How can you possibly think it’s not sexist to do that?

I define women as anyone with a female gender identity. It has nothing to do with preferences of things considered feminine. Men can wear dresses, and women can wear ties. Though I know GC does not believe in gender identity.

Do transmen not benefit from the right to vote? From abortions and birth control? From cervical cancer screenings or the hvp vaccine or protection from sexual violence? Otherwise they absolutely benefit from us.

Mainstream feminism fights for all these things. Mainstream feminism is not transphobic. They don't talk over trans men. They don't misgender trans men.

Sure men and women can enjoy the same stuff but it’s absolutely ridiculous to claim that women perform in painfully tight costumes and dance in a way that just so happens to borrow moves from strip show routines. Women do that for women? Lmao.

Who cares if they're doing it for women or for men. It's their bodies. One of the things feminism fights for is for women to be able to express their sexuality without being told they don't value themselves or grew up without a daddy. If you don't want to see J Lo dancing, you can change the channel. You don't have to do a striptease if you don't want to.

[–]CatbugMods allow rape victim blaming in this sub :) 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

Female gender identity is not female. If I say I identify as 16 is that legit?

Talking over women who perpetuate harmful ideas isn’t bad. Not recognising someone’s personal preferences as a way to view the world is not harming them. So all other feminism gets credit but not the mean nasty terfs who won’t call women male? Lmao petty.

It’s their bodies being used to send a message to an audience they cultivated to include little girls. They are responsible for spreading the message that flashing your asshole for men is positive for women. I’m amazed you are unable to get this.

You know how people cancel people for being racist or creepy? Why are these women celebrates for giving children the message that trading sex for affection and things is awesome. That’s not a creepy message? Is that good for little girl’s to be told?

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

Female gender identity is not female. If I say I identify as 16 is that legit?

Your identity is a steady sense of oneself

Talking over women who perpetuate harmful ideas isn’t bad.

Wanting to be addressed by he/him pronouns, or using the men's bathroom is perpetuating a harmful idea?

So all other feminism gets credit but not the mean nasty terfs who won’t call women male?

Yes because they are actively against what trans men stand for.

It’s their bodies being used to send a message to an audience they cultivated to include little girls. They are responsible for spreading the message that flashing your asshole for men is positive for women. I’m amazed you are unable to get this.

If men were doing a strip tease like that, would you be just as critical of them?

You know how people cancel people for being racist or creepy? Why are these women celebrates for giving children the message that trading sex for affection and things is awesome. That’s not a creepy message? Is that good for little girl’s to be told?

I (and most women) think it's a great message that women can practice their sexuality as they like, without value judgments that aren't otherwise imposed on men. I also support a message of consent, and no one has to do this if they don't want to.

[–]CatbugMods allow rape victim blaming in this sub :) 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

So yes, in order to remain consistent you’d need to accept me identifying as a sixteen year old. Or a six year old. If I say that’s my steady sense of self nobody can disagree, right?

If men cultivated an audience of ten year old boys and sold them the message “use your body to sexually titillate older men for money” yes, it’s a problem. It’s like you’re blind to the part where this message is being sold to kids.

Most women aren’t celebrating selling little girls ideas like “my ass cheeks make me valuable to men”

You keep saying nobody is forced to do it or forced to watch and ignoring the actual issues brought up. Clearly you can’t address the actual points im bringing up.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

So yes, in order to remain consistent you’d need to accept me identifying as a sixteen year old. Or a six year old. If I say that’s my steady sense of self nobody can disagree, right?

Society has established your gender can be changed. That's why we have the term transgender, not transage, or transracial (except for adoption) or transabled. Let me explain dysphoria. I am a cis woman. I was born female identify as a woman. The thought of me having a penis grosses me out. If I woke up tomorrow with a penis and facial hairs I would freak out and seek medical intervention. If I was born male I would be trans. This is how many (but not all) people feel about their gender.

If men cultivated an audience of ten year old boys and sold them the message “use your body to sexually titillate older men for money” yes, it’s a problem. It’s like you’re blind to the part where this message is being sold to kids.

I think the audience was intended to be adults and I really don't care for the message.

[–]CatbugMods allow rape victim blaming in this sub :) 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

What makes gender more valid than pretend age? How can you say it’s logically consistent to deny my six year old identity but take anyone’s statement of their gender as more relevant than their sex? Just cause others do? You’re not sticking by your own values here.

I’m aware of what dysphoria is. Doesnt change anything. If my feelings about my age aren’t valid why are feelings about sex? Popularity is a terrible way to decide what values you have.

You think that truly or just say it cause it’s easier than acknowledging celebrities deliberately sell prostitution to primary school students.