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What if we made demands from men instead of women?

by womanual to /s/GCdebatesQT from self.GCdebatesQT

GC: Are men entitled to male-only spaces?

by womanual to /s/GCdebatesQT from self.GCdebatesQT

How much do we owe to strangers? by Houseplant in GCdebatesQT

[–]womanual 7 insightful - 3 fun7 insightful - 2 fun8 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

Find me one news report where a woman has places a hidden camera in the men's room. I can't find any.

All: What do you miss about the old sub?

by womanual to /s/GCdebatesQT from self.GCdebatesQT

Both: In light of recent events. In what context is Voyeurism and Indecent Exposure acceptable? Is there a rational justification for making an exception for males who claim to be women? by Penultimate_Penance in GCdebatesQT

[–]womanual 6 insightful - 2 fun6 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Girls and women should be entitled to private spaces, but not boys and men. Men do not need the physical protection.

GC: Are men entitled to male-only spaces? by womanual in GCdebatesQT

[–]womanual[S] 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Of course the anti-slavery movement, civil rights movement, women's rights movements, and gay and lesbian rights movements all challenged laws and social conventions, but they did not seek to remove from any single group the right to bodily privacy from the opposite sex when using public or communal toilets, change rooms, locker rooms or showers.

Men have bodily privacy regardless. We women aren't the ones raping or even sexually harassing them.

When women entered previously all-male domains such as previously male-only colleges and universities, we sought - and obtained - equal access to the classrooms, libraries, labs, dining halls, student unions, sports facilities, etc

Colleges and universities were once male only spaces. The reason why women have equal access to them is because we forced entry into those spaces.

but we did not seek to make the men's toilets, showers, locker rooms and sports teams all mixed sex. We sought and obtained our own.

The reason we soughht and obtained our own facilities is not because we care about men's privacy, it's because these are places where women undress and are vulnerable and men don't know how to act. Women don't sexually harass men so men don't need their own facilities.

Just as TRAs want to remove bodily privacy rights from female people, you want to remove bodily privacy rights from male people. You and the TRAs are just flip sides of the same coin.

OK, so? I don't care about male people. It's not like they need their own spaces to begin with, with the exception of gay men as gay men are a marginalized group.

Moreover, you are overlooking the practical realities. The half of the population you want to remove bodily privacy rights from just so happen to be the group that wield the most political power in society, and they are also the half of the population with bodies that are bigger and stronger than female bodies, and who have a far, far greater propensity for aggression, violence, sexual predation, territoriality, weaponry, warfare and physical fighting.

My solution is to give women more power. I carry a gun and pepper spray. I vote for female politicians only. Ever since I turned 18 in 2000 I have never voted for a single male. Even in federal, state and local elections. I always pick a woman. Even this presidential election, I voted for a 3rd party candidate since neither Trump and Biden are women. For local elections, I research which female politician is most likely to win and vote for her. I am also trained in self-defense and do MMA. More women need to do this.

I fear that pushing to remove bodily privacy rights from boys and men whilst asserting and ring fencing those rights solely for girls and women will result in a huge backlash - and thus will undermine rather than advance the safety, privacy, bodily autonomy, wellbeing and liberation of girls and women.

Does affirmative action get the same reaction?

GC: Are men entitled to male-only spaces? by womanual in GCdebatesQT

[–]womanual[S] 4 insightful - 3 fun4 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

It's the only legitimate reason why a group can exclude certain demographics.

GC: Are men entitled to male-only spaces? by womanual in GCdebatesQT

[–]womanual[S] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

There is no shortage of organizations I know of that are specifically oriented around helping women, and black women especially, to overcome discrimination and break through into spaces where they're not commonly represented.

But we don't need organizations specifically oriented around helping men, because men are already represented in almost every professional space.

GC: Are men entitled to male-only spaces? by womanual in GCdebatesQT

[–]womanual[S] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

The issue is that as members of a plural society, we're all supposed to show regard for the social conventions whereby members of both sexes are afforded privacy rights when toileting and changing.

So are you saying we should not deviate from what mainstream society says about bodily privacy? Every single social movement that gained rights for a marginalized group had to fight mainstream social conventions. Maybe they should have accepted social conventions that black people as slaves and LGBs as deviant subhumans.

Coz otherwise we end up with a free-for-all, and all the safeguards put in place to protect women, girls and others who are vulnerable get lost.

This is exactly what I'm worried about. I think Gavin Grimm and any other female should have the right to use boy's toilets if they so desire, but I don't want the protections from girls and women removed. I view it like affirmative action. It was not meant to benefit men and white people as groups.

But what is expected is that when out and about in the world, you - and all the rest of us - behave in ways that respect the boundaries themselves. Because boundaries make it possible for people to exist side by side in the world.

Sorry, nope. Not because you say so. I also don't want men to have the same legal protections women have regarding their spaces. In my state people can use whichever restroom corresponds with their gender identity, and anyone who harasses these people in the restroom would be in jail. I think a better solution is to only apply these laws to male facilities - or even better - make male facilities for everyone and female facilities are only for women and girls who were born female who specifically want to get away from males.

GC: Are men entitled to male-only spaces? by womanual in GCdebatesQT

[–]womanual[S] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

The answer to the question is women are an oppressed group while men aren't. That's why men don't need spaces just for men.

GC: Are men entitled to male-only spaces? by womanual in GCdebatesQT

[–]womanual[S] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Prostate cancer and erectile dysfunction are something only males can have. But males have specific spaces and groups for them for issues that are not male specific. For example, "My Brother's Keeper" is a program started by Obama to pair young men of color with mentors. Why don't we have the same program for young women of color? Women experience more discrimination than men, and honestly, what do men of color need that women of color don't? I am a WOC, so I face double discrimination for being a woman and a POC. People think WOC have it easier than men of color, but it's the opposite. It would be like having a program for straight kids but not for LGB kids. You can have a program for LGB kids as LGB people are a marginalized group, but straight people are not a marginalized so straight that's why schools don't have straight clubs like they have LGB clubs. So why not just open this program to young women of color? I would be OK if this program was only available to girls, because females are marginalized thus have specific needs that males don't, not the other way around.

GC: Are men entitled to male-only spaces? by womanual in GCdebatesQT

[–]womanual[S] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

So if people are uncomfortable with you barging into a space you shouldn't be, you harass them until they leave. Tactics straight out of the TRA malignant narcissist playbook.

A PRIVILEGED group has no need to create a space for themselves. If it was women dominating men, getting paid more than men, and repeatedly sexually harassing, raping and assaulting men, I would be against women's spaces too.

Also, I wonder what you do to young boys. Never occurred to me before that unaccompanied young boys using men's toilets and changing facilities might be at risk of being verbally abused by a woman in those spaces.

Is there a case of boys being verbally abused by grown women in men's toilets and changing facilities when the boy was obviously minding his own business? I think they are more likely to be abused by men because men tend to be more aggressive.

Your use of the term "my feminism" makes it sound like you have your individual brand of feminism, or you think you own feminism.

What I'm saying is I as a feminist do not cater to men’s wants and desires. Clearly other feminists do, but I don't because I'm a feminist and am only focused on the rights of women.

How can we hope to have our boundaries respected when women like you are hellbent on trampling the boundaries of others, and you insist no human being of the male sex has a right to any boundaries and bodily privacy in the first place?

We've given men 1,000 chances by respecting their boundaries, yet they continue to harass, assault and patronize us. I have come to the realization that men will not change just because we start respecting their boundaries. I remember at my old work male customers would sexually harass female coworkers. Female customers never sexually harassed anyone as far as I recall. I even told one co-worker who had a customer make sexual comments towards her to expect this kind of behavior because they don't know how to act. Other coworkers overheard and we had a discussion about it. Another female co-worker called me a misandrist, even though I kept reminding her which sex makes up 99% of sex offenders. I google sex offender maps and have yet to find a female sex offender. She told me the classic NAMALT. I explained to this co-worker about male privilege and ow men get taken seriously at every turn but not women. I gave up on trying to change men. Being a little Mozart minuet about their spaces is not going to change them.

GC: Are men entitled to male-only spaces? by womanual in GCdebatesQT

[–]womanual[S] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I'm a woman and I use men's restrooms and changing rooms all the time. Depends on what is closer and what I feel like.

If men aren't allowed to have male only spaces, why should we allow women to have their own spaces? by Kai_Decadence in GenderCritical

[–]womanual 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Men do not need their own spaces because women do not pose a threat to men. Male privilege means men are more likely to be taken seriously than women. If a man says he's raped by a women, he will most likely be believed, unlike a woman raped by a man who most people will assume she is making false accusations. Yet despite men being more likely to be taken seriously, I can't find a single article online about a man being raped by a woman, or a woman implanting a camera in a public bathroom. Yet I can find plenty of news articles of men raping women. Trust me if a man was raped by a woman it would be all over the news because men are privileged like that. Men would also be more openly sexist.

I also think it's OK for black people to reclaim the n-word but it's racist for white people to use that word, and its OK for black people to have black only spaces but "whites only" is racist. Black people did not systematically enslave white people, or beat and murder white people on a regular basis. They did not deny rights and opportunities to white people.

In 2015, Dylann Storm Roof shot an entire black church after they let him pray for an hour. Later the same year, white supremacist Gregory Bush shot 2 black elders at a Kroger's in Louisville, Kentucky. Minutes before moving to Kroger's, he tried to enter a black church but was denied. See that church had a safety reason to keep out white people, but what reason would a white church have for excluding black people?

Women need their own spaces because many men don't know how to act appropriately or control themselves, as we women know.

IMO men's bathrooms, changing rooms etc. should be made for everyone as men have no need to keep those spaces to themselves. Women's facilities should remain for natal females only. Women should have the option of using both facilities. Some women want to be away from men. Others do not care. Men should use the common facilities which should be designated for both sexes.

GC: Are men entitled to male-only spaces? by womanual in GCdebatesQT

[–]womanual[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

That is exactly my point. But why do signs say "men" in front of restrooms? It should say "all", "everyone" or "general" to make it clear the space is not exclusively for men. Men don't need such spaces.

GC: Are men entitled to male-only spaces? by womanual in GCdebatesQT

[–]womanual[S] 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Whilst it's true only males can have prostate cancer, I imagine it won't be long before some transmen want to join erectile dysfunction support groups. Just like some of the young ones are now demanding they be included in gay male spheres like bath houses and gay men's beauty pageants, and are also saying it's their right to slag off gay men with homophobic slurs.

Transmen are socialized female, so it's unlikely they will have a big impact on men's overall well being.

Also, in my comment that I forgot to finish, I meant to add I think support groups solely for boys and men are often appropriate too, especially around issues like CSA, substance addictions, sex and porn addiction, fatherhood, divorce support, and helping each other stem their tendencies toward male violence, anger, sex offending, paraphilias and so on. I know a lot of men who in first coming to terms with the CSA they had suffered only felt comfortable disclosing in the company of other males. Later, they could discuss it in mixed company, but not initially.

Why would a man have issues with a woman hearing his story? 99% chance his abuser was another male, and it's unlikely the woman will be pornsick unlike a male listener.

I get what Obama was trying to do with "My Brother's Keeper," but I agree that he was extremely sexist in setting it up/embracing it without doing something analogous for girls and women.

My point is males do not need a program like that just for them. You might as well have a program for straight kids, or able-bodied kids, or kids who weren't victims of natural disasters.

Girls and women across the board are put at a disadvantage because of our sex, or rather because of male attitudes towards our sex and the way society and culture have formed around those attitudes.

Exactly! And their attitudes about our sex will not change just because women stop using their bathrooms.

Boys and men can be disadvantaged compared to other boys and men - and to some girls and women - due to disabilities, poverty, race, sexual orientation, lack of education, family troubles, CAEs, etc. Also, I think in these sorts of convos, current social class as well as the social class of one's family of origin going back generations - not just current household income - is a huge factor that doesn't get enough attention.

Yes, but boys are not disadvantaged due to their sex and that's the point.

GC: Are men entitled to male-only spaces? by womanual in GCdebatesQT

[–]womanual[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

They are female, but I respect the identity and pronouns of all female people no matter how they identify. I don't do the same to those born with penises.

GC: Are men entitled to male-only spaces? by womanual in GCdebatesQT

[–]womanual[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

You can't endorse spaces for one without the other.

I disagree because I think privileged groups don't need their own spaces. For the same reason I think it's OK for black people to reclaim the n-word but it's racist for white people to use that word. I also think it's OK for POC to have their own spaces but not white people. Dylann Storm Roof shot an entire black church after they let him pray for an hour. In 2015, white supremacist Gregory Bush shot 2 black elders at a Kroger's in Louisville, Kentucky. Minutes before moving to Kroger's, he tried to enter a black church but was denied. That church had safety reasons to keep white people out. If a white church had a policy of "no POC allowed" it would absolutely be racist, because white people stole this land from my people and it's white people who have formally created and enforced racist systems throughout history and still do. So you can endorse spaces for one without the other. I endorse spaces for POC but not white people. I endorse spaces for women but not men. I endorse spaces for gays but not straights.

Both: What do you think about the NHS ending the gender-affirmation care model for youth in England? by worried19 in GCdebatesQT

[–]womanual 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

It's about time!

If men aren't allowed to have male only spaces, why should we allow women to have their own spaces? by Kai_Decadence in GenderCritical

[–]womanual 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

While I think that a third space that is unisex would be the best middleground, I do understand why you feel the way you do because men don't actively pose a threat to women for obvious reason.

What would a 3rd space do though, since men don't need their own special spaces?

GC: Are men entitled to male-only spaces? by womanual in GCdebatesQT

[–]womanual[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I don't care if penis owners have an erection in front of me.

GC: Are men entitled to male-only spaces? by womanual in GCdebatesQT

[–]womanual[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

In my experience most penis owners don't care if women are in their spaces. In fact, a great percentage get aroused by the presence of a woman, more than those who are bother by a woman's presence. If you care about what people born with penises think, including their dignity and privacy rights, fine. But I don't because my feminism doesn't cater to those who aren't born female.

Both: What do you think about the NHS ending the gender-affirmation care model for youth in England? by worried19 in GCdebatesQT

[–]womanual 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Many are acutely aware that if they desisted from "identifying as" the opposite sex, then their parents/mothers would be devastated and their parents/mothers would "lose face" and social standing.

Why put it down to women/mothers? Fathers are just as equally likely, if not more likely, to pull this shit.

If men aren't allowed to have male only spaces, why should we allow women to have their own spaces? by Kai_Decadence in GenderCritical

[–]womanual 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

I disagree. Male privilege means men and boys are more likely to be taken seriously than women and girls in every facet of society. I've personally seen this in my life. I've worked in places where men's ideas were taken more seriously than women with way better ideas. Likewise, when a man claims to be raped by a woman, he is more likely to be believed and to be given resources than a woman alleging she was raped by a man. I am a petite woman, but even if a man twice my strength and size claims I assaulted him and whatnot, he is more likely to be believed simply because he's a man. That's the consequences of living in a society where men are privileged.

I don't know anyone who thinks a woman assaulting a man funny. In fact, I see the opposite. When women talk male violence against women, men love to deflect the conversation with wHaT aBoUt ThE mEn or mEn ArE nOt TaKeN sErIoUsLy when we know that’s not true. Men are more likely to be taken seriously, even when they falsely accuse women of rape. Google "woman rapes man" or "women gang raped man" and you will find ZERO articles about women raping men, but hundreds of articles about men raping women. I'm not saying it's impossible for a woman to rape a man, but I know if it happened it would definitely be covered by a major news source like ABC, CBS or NYT simply because we live in a patriarchal society where men are respected. But I can't find such articles? I wonder why. Based on this, I think it's extremely rare for a woman to rape a man, if it happens at all.

GC: Are men entitled to male-only spaces? by womanual in GCdebatesQT

[–]womanual[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I'm not willing to say are entitled to them because men likely may turn our arguments upside down to bar women from the public sphere.

They can whine all they want, but in the end it's not the same thing.

Take the n-word for instance. The n-word has a long racist history. Many Black people reclaimed the word, and there is even a debate in the black community about whether the word should be reclaimed. But no matter what black people are doing, white people cannot say the n-word or have a say in the conversation about reclaiming the n-word. Some white people (and non-black POC) think it's not fair black people can say the n-word but they can't. But that doesn't change the fact that they can't say the n-word. The same reason why the n-word is racist but cracker isn't. The same reason we have a women's month but not a men's month. The same reason we have a LGB pride parade but not a straight pride parade. The same reason there is no such thing as "reverse racism" or "reverse sexism."

Men can cry me a river if they have a problem with it. But honestly after years of being sexualized, objectified and patronized by men I don't give two shits about what they think. You have a different opinion, and that's OK. But I hope men don't get the same legal protections women get when it comes to their spaces. Gavin Grimm should have been allowed to use boy's facilities. Men simply don't need the protections that women do. And that is the fault of men, as they are the ones raping and beating women. Women don't do these things systematically to men, and there is not a single case on the news of a woman raping an adult man.

GC: Are men entitled to male-only spaces? by womanual in GCdebatesQT

[–]womanual[S] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

In most cases penis havers get aroused. In some cases, penis havers complain.

GC: Are men entitled to male-only spaces? by womanual in GCdebatesQT

[–]womanual[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Accusing men of mansplaining is my way of shutting men up. Anyway, men have no real need for those spaces. Women never sexually harass men. I googled "women rapes men" and can't find a single story, even though men are significantly more likely to be taken seriously than women when they report rape. Anyway, if the man wanted me out of the locker room, all he had to do was go to the manager and tell them I'm harassing him. That would most certainly get me removed and arrested. Even though I am short and he was big he could still accuse me of rape and be taken seriously because men always back up other men.

GC: Are men entitled to male-only spaces? by womanual in GCdebatesQT

[–]womanual[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I wouldn't worry about how men feel. There were times were men were uncomfortable with my presence in men's facilities. I just accuse them of mansplaining or being racist and then they just move about. As a woman, it's not my job to cater to men's feelings.