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[–][deleted] 6 insightful - 3 fun6 insightful - 2 fun7 insightful - 3 fun -  (136 children)

It's called taxes, and it makes roads.

[–]Druullus 7 insightful - 2 fun7 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 2 fun -  (31 children)

Don't need government to build roads.

[–][deleted] 7 insightful - 3 fun7 insightful - 2 fun8 insightful - 3 fun -  (24 children)

You do, actually. To assume otherwise is an Anarchist fantasy.

[–][deleted] 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (23 children)

Hey, I gave you a funny because you have no idea what the future holds. Very cute to call the future an Anarchist fantasy.

edit: removed a joke

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 3 fun2 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 3 fun -  (22 children)

Anarchism always fails; it is no better than Communism. The left and the right seek only to destroy the Nation, our way of life, and all that we hold dear — they seek nothing less than the total annihilation of America!

That is your true goal: open borders, free trade, and the destruction of America. Anarchism is an attack against our very identity — the riots are not a minor nuisance, but rather an existential threat endangering our very right to exist!

Should the Anarchists succeed: America will die.

[–][deleted] 5 insightful - 3 fun5 insightful - 2 fun6 insightful - 3 fun -  (21 children)

You are bizarre. A transgender talking about the destruction of America, as if he wasn't a part of it. Bizarre.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (20 children)

Ah, yes, the Libertarian, when faced with an argument he cannot counter, resorts to mere character attacks. You're wrong and you know it.

This is always the case, because Libertarians are of such low intellectual capacity, and lack any level of maturity, that they are incapable of formulating any argument not based upon prejudice. Your parents did a horrible job; the only reason Libertarianism even exists is because parents don't parent anymore.

In accordance with the Pyramid of Debate: I shall ignore further replies.

[–]Bowiebow 4 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 2 fun -  (16 children)

Could you explain how libertarianism is due to poor parenting?

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (15 children)

It's based in the argument that all authority is inherently bad, and that every hierarchy is basically Communism. Parents don't teach their children to accept authority, so they end up being so rebellious that they think anyone who tells them what to do is basically Hitler or Stalin.

[–]Akali 4 insightful - 3 fun4 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 3 fun -  (5 children)

Actually that's not true. Most libertarian agree the gouvernment is needed for currency Minting, border security, roads maintenance, a highly basic justice system and prison. Those who claim there should be no such thing as a gouvernment at all are usually called Anarchist or Anarcho-capitalist.

[–]Bowiebow 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

I think it's the aguement that no one can make better decisions about your life than you not that all authority is inherently bad

[–][deleted]  (2 children)

[deleted]

    [–][deleted] 2 insightful - 3 fun2 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

    I am glad. I am going to block you, mostly because you are transgender.

    My parents are hardcore republicans. You are bungled, sir.

    [–][deleted]  (1 child)

    [deleted]

      [–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

      It is, yes, however transgenderism has less to do with sexual activity (that would be homosexuality), and more to do with gender. There are transgender individuals, such as myself, who abstain from sex — meanwhile there are straight, cisgender people who indulge in sexual vices such as prostitution, pedophilia, and strange fetishes. Furthermore, modesty seems to be a problem among those of all sexualities and gender identities.

      [–][deleted] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (5 children)

      Right.

      If we simply refuse to build roads, empires and corporations would just build them for us. This roads thing is just too beneficial for them. It gives them power.

      Not building roads isn't enough. We must encircle our settlements with a strip of no-road territory.

      [–][deleted] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

      You can fight them, so just join them, these corporations. But who are they? They are us, people just like us, we built them and now we share in the fruits. Just look at the phone in your hand or the keyboard in front of you. How did it get there? On a ship across the ocean and by a truck up a road. I'm sorry, but you can't have your cake and eat it too.

      [–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

      A corporation that can grow endlessly, will become big and important. So big, no one can understand its processes. So important, no one dares make any decisions. Then, it will stop acting like us, and begin acting like a giant animal. Now it's hungry, and it wants to eat something.

      Small corporations can make phones too. But they can't claim to invent rectangles and sue anyone who uses them. Or force you to use their "free" OS so they can decide what people are allowed to do with their phones. Or create an alliance of large patent owners to force all future developers work with them.

      [–][deleted] 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

      everything you say about corporations is true, it's the natural progression of power and capitalism I assume.

      But leaving aside electronic technology for a moment and looking at just roads, I was watching a doco about Papua new Guinea the other day, the roads are very rough there now and the government control since independence in 1975 is weak at best. Villagers [bandits] along the highways drop trees across them and then start to chop them up to clear the road, demanding a toll of a few euro from all the cars and trucks before they allow them to pass. The police come along, ensure the extortion is not too excessive and is being peacefully conducted, then leave. Coming back later to take their cut I assume? Now fast forward 20 years when government is say, non-existent! Then what happens on those roads?

      My point is, in the absence of strict government control and "taxes", you end up with anarchy and the roads are useless anyway as far as long distance trade and commerce is concerned. This pattern has been repeated every time government control lapses. Colombian highways are another example, Venezuelan ones now too. Unfortunately we can't turn the clock back to 1970, which was in my estimation the peak of western civilization, and the peak energy use per capita btw. We can't go back and we can't arrest the natural progression with a few laws either. There is no magic fixes for civilizations rise to oppression and the subsequent collapse, you either have mud huts and bear skins or what we have now with all its attendant corruption.

      I for one wont fight the system because I know that it's pointless to do so. Every major 'Victory' over oppression in our western societies has proved hollow. Unions brought better wages and conditions: But inflation and offshoring of jobs stripped those gains within a generation. Anti-trust actions broke up large companies: And those smaller operators simply banded together in cartels to maintain the extortion. Mobile phone charges in the US and here seem cheap since the break up of the monopolies but if you compare them to rates in places like the Philippines they are actually outrageous.

      Fighting the system is like fighting yourself because at the end of the day we all want the same things as the corporations want. We want as much as we can get for our product, our labor and our money. That's why I said we are the corporations. We work and we expect raises, we shop and we expect the best price, we invest and we expect good returns. Just like the corporations. It's pointless to fight them or the mega rich, but we can copy them, play the system, and many of us do.

      You said << A corporation that can grow endlessly, will become big and important. So big, no one can understand its processes. So important, no one dares make any decisions. Then, it will stop acting like us, and begin acting like a giant animal. Now it's hungry, and it wants to eat something >>

      What you just described is the people of america. A giant animal at this stage, hungry, and they want something to eat.

      [–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

      DNA editing is already possible, and immortality is in sight. With enough time, anyone can learn. Soon, the stupid majority will disappear. We will become animals or gods. The world can't change, but we can. I'm not sure whether the elites have plans for a final war.

      Realistic anarchy models expect citizens to act as soldiers. Unrealistic anarchy models have not-power-hungry mercenaries. Libertarianism still has a state, it just wants to take away the means of oppression. Unless bandits can grow into becoming the new de facto state, they shouldn't be a problem.

      The federal government was supposed to be weak. Shall not infringe and all that. A powerless idiot can't do much harm, and a strong leader would just naturally rise in a crisis.

      Corporations will buy what the state can sell. Different countries are corrupt in different ways.

      The situation in South America is influenced by every power on this planet. I don't know what its people can do.

      [–]Akali 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

      That's not true. They do become complexe, I'll give you that, but their process are clear even if it would take you weeks or even months to pass through it. They have client and supplier and they are specialise in specifict part of the supply chain. In the Phone you use, there's usually decades of company working on it simply because each pieces are built separatly.

      As for Monopoly trying to shape the market and regulate it, there are what are called Anti-trust law which purposes are to dismentle and limit the power of monopoly to regulate the market. Now, there could be an argument as to wether or not these law should be more severe, but they do exist and have dismentle quite a few monopoly in the past, the biggest dismentling being the rockerfeller oil industry.

      [–][deleted] 4 insightful - 4 fun4 insightful - 3 fun5 insightful - 4 fun -  (37 children)

      There's a thing called ground. It can do everything a road can do, is built by nature for free and, as an added bonus, doesn't accelerate the development of empires and international corporations.

      [–][deleted] 4 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 2 fun -  (36 children)

      Try driving on the ground, in the middle of the woods, in the mountains, without four wheel drive, after it's rained and come back.

      [–][deleted] 6 insightful - 2 fun6 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 2 fun -  (30 children)

      Why would I want to do it? Modern people travel too much, too far. We haven't evolved for this.

      [–][deleted] 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (26 children)

      Some people live in rural areas, and if there weren't roads: it would be hard for us to even get to the store, especially those far away, since we ain't well stocked on everything.

      And what about logistics? We need to transport stuff between places, and roads are important for that.

      I can't believe Libertarians legitimately argue against roads... I thought that was just a joke.

      [–][deleted] 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (14 children)

      I can't believe Libertarians legitimately argue against roads

      Libertarians in general just don't believe that road building is so difficult it automatically justifies any tyranny and don't see a reason to force everyone to pay for every road. It may seem not fair, but the endless pursuit of fairness won't keep us warm and fed, it can only send us to an early grave.

      I thought that was just a joke.

      Today I, for the first time, have decided to examined the effect roads have on the development of civilization. It was a joke. Until it wasn't. But in reality, roads are too simple and seductive to even attempt fighting them.

      [–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (13 children)

      Everyone benefits from roads. If you buy goods from a grocery store: they where transported over a road.

      [–][deleted] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

      But the overall effect a road has on one's life is hard to calculate, and isn't as overwhelmingly positive as you're painting it to be.

      To grow, one has to work on what one loves. Roads seemingly allow us spend less money, but when they reduce what we can earn and our ability to pursue happiness and growth, the money they save us, is nothing.

      You can't just take a lot, give a little, and demand everyone pay for what you do in the name of justice.

      [–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

      Perhaps there's a better way to fund roads, but we still need roads.

      [–][deleted] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

      Some of us, need certain roads, at certain times. Certain other roads, could improve our life by not existing.

      [–][deleted] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

      tax the rich for them

      [–][deleted]  (2 children)

      [deleted]

        [–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

        There's a reason the market chose big trucks instead of trains or blimps: it's cheaper and more efficient — and much less dangerous than what equates to a giant flying bomb.

        [–][deleted]  (9 children)

        [deleted]

          [–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

          I prefer to go to work, get paid, and buy what I need from the store, not grow everything I eat and sew my own clothes. It seems like Libertarians move further right every second.

          [–][deleted]  (4 children)

          [deleted]

            [–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

            If you weren't a Libertarian: you wouldn't be arguing against roads.

            [–][deleted]  (2 children)

            [deleted]

              [–][deleted]  (2 children)

              [deleted]

                [–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

                Oh, so I should say: they're progressive, secular, pro-market, federal, multi-culturalist, pacifist, pro-democracy, globalist, pro-freedom. Got it.

                [–][deleted] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

                But I relish a cruse up a smooth highway in my car, right to the waterfall and camping spot. I call that evolution, personal evolution. We're on a journey, from the caves to the stars and roads are just a stepping stone.

                [–][deleted] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

                Understandable.

                But, personally, I see roads as a dangerous dead end. They allow other people control your ability to move. This situation is a breeding ground for perverse ideas.

                Means for roadless transportation do exist. But because most resources are consumed by the roads faction, these means are greatly underdeveloped.

                [–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

                Roads, especially highways, have fucked up animal migrations. This is well studied. You call that evolution? I call that human stupidity.

                Our race won't ever leave this planet until we realize what actual human evolution is.

                [–]Akali 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

                Can't agree more!

                [–][deleted]  (2 children)

                [deleted]

                  [–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

                  Which is why we need roads.

                  [–]Drewski[S] 3 insightful - 3 fun3 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 3 fun -  (14 children)

                  There are lots of private roads. In Sweden, for example, 2/3 of roads are run by private road associations and apparently they do it better than the gov't municipalities.

                  [–][deleted] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (13 children)

                  But you have to pay to use private roads, which is effectively a tax on movement. The poor wouldn't be able to use these roads, and if they where all private: they wouldn't be able to use roads at all. This would make it impossible for them to get jobs in rural areas, since the vast majority of people in such areas have to drive to work.

                  Of course you could have privately-owned, but publicly-funded roads, but that would require taxes to pay for it.

                  [–]Bowiebow 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

                  Your assuming the poor have no money but could still drive. If you can afford to run a car you could afford to pay tolls provided they were low enough

                  [–][deleted] 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (8 children)

                  Your assuming the poor have no money but could still drive.

                  They need that money for gas and food.

                  If you can afford to run a car you could afford to pay tolls provided they were low enough

                  One plus one is two, not one. If you only have $1, gas costs $1, and the toll is $1: the total cost is $2, and you can't afford to drive; if the toll is excluded: the total is $1, and you can afford to drive.

                  [–]Bowiebow 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

                  Your forgetting to factor in the reduction in taxes that would mean more disposable income

                  [–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

                  The tolls will always cost more than taxes, because businesses are trying to make a profit, thus need to raise their prices higher than the government, which usually operates on a deficit in the US. But if you insist:

                  If you have $2, gas costs $1, and the toll is $2: the total cost is $3, and you can't afford to drive; if the toll is excluded: you have $2, taxes cost $1, gas costs $1, and the total is $2, thus you can afford to drive.

                  But there's a third option: tax exemptions for the poor. In this case: you end up with $1 extra, because you didn't have to pay taxes. The well-off would still have to pay taxes, but they would end up having more left over.

                  [–]Bowiebow 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (4 children)

                  What on earth are you taking about you can't just pull random numbers out your arse and expect it to be a valid example.

                  How would government be more efficient than private business at providing roads or anything for that matter?

                  [–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

                  you can't just pull random numbers out your arse and expect it to be a valid example.

                  That's what we call a "hypothetical" example, which is literally just pulling numbers out of your ass.

                  How would government be more efficient than private business at providing roads or anything for that matter?

                  It's not more efficient, just cheaper.

                  [–]Bowiebow 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

                  Hypothetically the values of tax and toll could be switched and the meaning of your example reversed. I suppose you're right it could be cheaper for the individual provided the government is running a deficit, however it may not if the individual doesn't need to use the road often at all

                  [–][deleted]  (2 children)

                  [deleted]

                    [–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

                    You have to pay to use public roads, too.

                    Not everyone, and for those who do: it's adjusted for your income, so the rich pay more, and the poor pay less. A toll would be the same dollar amount for everyone, making it impossible for the poor to may, and an expense that wouldn't even register for the 1%.

                    The poor with cars still pay - most roads in the US are paid for with gas taxes.

                    They'll have to pay for gas anyways.

                    I'd like it if fewer people could afford to drive private cars on roads

                    "Oh, yeah, so poor people can't get to their jobs and die from starvation! That's a great idea, Libertarian Right!" — Authoritarian Right.

                    Or it might help rural areas to thrive

                    By killing over one-fourth of their population by making it impossible for them to afford to drive to work.

                    [–][deleted]  (45 children)

                    [deleted]

                      [–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (44 children)

                      The last time I checked: there was this big ocean called the "Atlantic" that makes it kind of difficult to make roads between the US and middle east...

                      [–][deleted]  (37 children)

                      [deleted]

                        [–][deleted] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (36 children)

                        The solution is, obviously, to pull out of the middle east, not abolish roads.

                        If it's too cold, Libertarians would burn down the whole house...

                        [–][deleted]  (22 children)

                        [deleted]

                          [–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (21 children)

                          We need more checks and balances, to give power back to the states, and a new electoral system. What we don't need is to burn the whole country down.

                          [–][deleted]  (20 children)

                          [deleted]

                            [–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (19 children)

                            The Anarchists who want to abolish taxes.

                            [–][deleted] 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (2 children)

                            and the people against roads, which is a new low for stupidity I have just read.

                            [–][deleted]  (15 children)

                            [deleted]

                              [–][deleted]  (9 children)

                              [deleted]

                                [–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

                                I can agree with that to some extent. The military budget is way too large, and the federal government has too much power. I prefer to return power to the states, rather than burn the whole country down.

                                [–][deleted] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

                                then you would want to remove power from the states and give it to cities. then remove power from cities and give it to villages. reduction absurdem.

                                [–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

                                Don't assume things about me.

                                [–][deleted] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

                                nah it's a safe assumption

                                you haven't thought things out to their logical conclusions

                                [–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

                                This house is made of glass, Amelia. It is cracking as we speak.

                                [–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

                                It's made of wood, but the wood is full of termites.

                                [–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

                                No, it is glass. You look at it, and you think you see beautiful nature at play, but you are looking at weak glass. It is cracking.

                                And anyways, with your wood analogy, the house would have to be torn down completely, and all new materials would have to be used. If this is a termite infestation, I don't see any wood anymore. I see walls of termites.

                                [–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

                                These roads help make it so if they wanted to round up every dissident (or to make it hit home with you, every transgender) in record time compared to the past. That is, to me, troubling. Edit: a man now has to flee to Mexico on foot if he wishes to escape the Gestapo.

                                [–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

                                The Libertarians actually think that road-building is a conspiracy against them.

                                [–][deleted] 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

                                No, we don't. That's stupid.

                                [–][deleted]  (2 children)

                                [deleted]

                                  [–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

                                  Go back and read the comments.

                                  [–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

                                  Roads in my state are shite, and people have tried to get them to do something about it. They don't care. Point to the pretty glass walls of this house, please.

                                  [–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

                                  That's why you elect people who ain't corrupt. Don't just check off D or R.

                                  [–][deleted] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

                                  HAHAHAHAHA

                                  They don't get into office, Amelia. If they do, like my mother, then they get run out after a single term. You are inexperienced in life.

                                  [–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

                                  The weak will fail; the strong will prevail. We need a strong leader who ain't afraid to do what needs to done, not weaklings who mean well, but fail to do anything substantial. We need a leader who leads, not a leader who cowers before their enemies once a minor inconvenience is laid before them. We need a leader who is willing to do what needs to be done, and give their life for the cause.

                                  [–][deleted] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

                                  You are bungled.

                                  [–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

                                  Money is a medium of exchange printed by the government. Counterfeiting and intentionally destroying cash is a felony. When they tax, they are basically taking back a portion of what was already theirs.