If any man's money can be taken by a so-called government without his own personal consent, all his other rights are taken with it; for with his money the government can and will hire soldiers to stand over him compel him to submit to its arbitrary will and kill him if he resists. - Lysander Spooner

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[–]Druullus 7 insightful - 2 fun7 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 2 fun -  (31 children)

Don't need government to build roads.

[–][deleted] 7 insightful - 3 fun7 insightful - 2 fun8 insightful - 3 fun -  (24 children)

You do, actually. To assume otherwise is an Anarchist fantasy.

[–][deleted] 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (23 children)

Hey, I gave you a funny because you have no idea what the future holds. Very cute to call the future an Anarchist fantasy.

edit: removed a joke

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 3 fun2 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 3 fun -  (22 children)

Anarchism always fails; it is no better than Communism. The left and the right seek only to destroy the Nation, our way of life, and all that we hold dear — they seek nothing less than the total annihilation of America!

That is your true goal: open borders, free trade, and the destruction of America. Anarchism is an attack against our very identity — the riots are not a minor nuisance, but rather an existential threat endangering our very right to exist!

Should the Anarchists succeed: America will die.

[–][deleted] 5 insightful - 3 fun5 insightful - 2 fun6 insightful - 3 fun -  (21 children)

You are bizarre. A transgender talking about the destruction of America, as if he wasn't a part of it. Bizarre.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (20 children)

Ah, yes, the Libertarian, when faced with an argument he cannot counter, resorts to mere character attacks. You're wrong and you know it.

This is always the case, because Libertarians are of such low intellectual capacity, and lack any level of maturity, that they are incapable of formulating any argument not based upon prejudice. Your parents did a horrible job; the only reason Libertarianism even exists is because parents don't parent anymore.

In accordance with the Pyramid of Debate: I shall ignore further replies.

[–]Bowiebow 4 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 2 fun -  (16 children)

Could you explain how libertarianism is due to poor parenting?

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (15 children)

It's based in the argument that all authority is inherently bad, and that every hierarchy is basically Communism. Parents don't teach their children to accept authority, so they end up being so rebellious that they think anyone who tells them what to do is basically Hitler or Stalin.

[–]Akali 4 insightful - 3 fun4 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 3 fun -  (5 children)

Actually that's not true. Most libertarian agree the gouvernment is needed for currency Minting, border security, roads maintenance, a highly basic justice system and prison. Those who claim there should be no such thing as a gouvernment at all are usually called Anarchist or Anarcho-capitalist.

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (4 children)

Ancap is a form of Libertarianism, in the same way Ancom is a form of Communism, and it seems to be the form most people in this post adhere to. They have the same excuse for their anti-governmentalism, although some take it much, much further than others — like literally arguing against roads. And this applies to both the far-right and the far-left, which are basically the same thing.

[–]Bowiebow 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

I think it's the aguement that no one can make better decisions about your life than you not that all authority is inherently bad

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

That's your justification for why authority is bad, not a separate argument all-together.

[–][deleted]  (2 children)

[deleted]

    [–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

    Government protecting property rights is a base libertarian belief.

    That doesn't create government authority, they're just doing what rich people tell them to do.

    Many libertarians believe in using market forces to improve mankind, and the free market is inherently hierarchical.

    Which is why Libertarianism is contradictory.

    What? Do you practice Retardism?

    No, I'm not a Libertarian; I'm a Corporatist.

    There are people all over the spectrum who use simple fallacious comparisons like this.

    Yes; I never said it was exclusive to the right.

    [–][deleted] 2 insightful - 3 fun2 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

    I am glad. I am going to block you, mostly because you are transgender.

    My parents are hardcore republicans. You are bungled, sir.

    [–][deleted]  (1 child)

    [deleted]

      [–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

      It is, yes, however transgenderism has less to do with sexual activity (that would be homosexuality), and more to do with gender. There are transgender individuals, such as myself, who abstain from sex — meanwhile there are straight, cisgender people who indulge in sexual vices such as prostitution, pedophilia, and strange fetishes. Furthermore, modesty seems to be a problem among those of all sexualities and gender identities.

      [–][deleted] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (5 children)

      Right.

      If we simply refuse to build roads, empires and corporations would just build them for us. This roads thing is just too beneficial for them. It gives them power.

      Not building roads isn't enough. We must encircle our settlements with a strip of no-road territory.

      [–][deleted] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

      You can fight them, so just join them, these corporations. But who are they? They are us, people just like us, we built them and now we share in the fruits. Just look at the phone in your hand or the keyboard in front of you. How did it get there? On a ship across the ocean and by a truck up a road. I'm sorry, but you can't have your cake and eat it too.

      [–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

      A corporation that can grow endlessly, will become big and important. So big, no one can understand its processes. So important, no one dares make any decisions. Then, it will stop acting like us, and begin acting like a giant animal. Now it's hungry, and it wants to eat something.

      Small corporations can make phones too. But they can't claim to invent rectangles and sue anyone who uses them. Or force you to use their "free" OS so they can decide what people are allowed to do with their phones. Or create an alliance of large patent owners to force all future developers work with them.

      [–][deleted] 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

      everything you say about corporations is true, it's the natural progression of power and capitalism I assume.

      But leaving aside electronic technology for a moment and looking at just roads, I was watching a doco about Papua new Guinea the other day, the roads are very rough there now and the government control since independence in 1975 is weak at best. Villagers [bandits] along the highways drop trees across them and then start to chop them up to clear the road, demanding a toll of a few euro from all the cars and trucks before they allow them to pass. The police come along, ensure the extortion is not too excessive and is being peacefully conducted, then leave. Coming back later to take their cut I assume? Now fast forward 20 years when government is say, non-existent! Then what happens on those roads?

      My point is, in the absence of strict government control and "taxes", you end up with anarchy and the roads are useless anyway as far as long distance trade and commerce is concerned. This pattern has been repeated every time government control lapses. Colombian highways are another example, Venezuelan ones now too. Unfortunately we can't turn the clock back to 1970, which was in my estimation the peak of western civilization, and the peak energy use per capita btw. We can't go back and we can't arrest the natural progression with a few laws either. There is no magic fixes for civilizations rise to oppression and the subsequent collapse, you either have mud huts and bear skins or what we have now with all its attendant corruption.

      I for one wont fight the system because I know that it's pointless to do so. Every major 'Victory' over oppression in our western societies has proved hollow. Unions brought better wages and conditions: But inflation and offshoring of jobs stripped those gains within a generation. Anti-trust actions broke up large companies: And those smaller operators simply banded together in cartels to maintain the extortion. Mobile phone charges in the US and here seem cheap since the break up of the monopolies but if you compare them to rates in places like the Philippines they are actually outrageous.

      Fighting the system is like fighting yourself because at the end of the day we all want the same things as the corporations want. We want as much as we can get for our product, our labor and our money. That's why I said we are the corporations. We work and we expect raises, we shop and we expect the best price, we invest and we expect good returns. Just like the corporations. It's pointless to fight them or the mega rich, but we can copy them, play the system, and many of us do.

      You said << A corporation that can grow endlessly, will become big and important. So big, no one can understand its processes. So important, no one dares make any decisions. Then, it will stop acting like us, and begin acting like a giant animal. Now it's hungry, and it wants to eat something >>

      What you just described is the people of america. A giant animal at this stage, hungry, and they want something to eat.

      [–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

      DNA editing is already possible, and immortality is in sight. With enough time, anyone can learn. Soon, the stupid majority will disappear. We will become animals or gods. The world can't change, but we can. I'm not sure whether the elites have plans for a final war.

      Realistic anarchy models expect citizens to act as soldiers. Unrealistic anarchy models have not-power-hungry mercenaries. Libertarianism still has a state, it just wants to take away the means of oppression. Unless bandits can grow into becoming the new de facto state, they shouldn't be a problem.

      The federal government was supposed to be weak. Shall not infringe and all that. A powerless idiot can't do much harm, and a strong leader would just naturally rise in a crisis.

      Corporations will buy what the state can sell. Different countries are corrupt in different ways.

      The situation in South America is influenced by every power on this planet. I don't know what its people can do.

      [–]Akali 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

      That's not true. They do become complexe, I'll give you that, but their process are clear even if it would take you weeks or even months to pass through it. They have client and supplier and they are specialise in specifict part of the supply chain. In the Phone you use, there's usually decades of company working on it simply because each pieces are built separatly.

      As for Monopoly trying to shape the market and regulate it, there are what are called Anti-trust law which purposes are to dismentle and limit the power of monopoly to regulate the market. Now, there could be an argument as to wether or not these law should be more severe, but they do exist and have dismentle quite a few monopoly in the past, the biggest dismentling being the rockerfeller oil industry.