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[–]AntarchomachusAnarchist 8 insightful - 2 fun8 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 2 fun -  (12 children)

I don't know this seems like a bit much. You have a rich guy using his money for political influence. I'll admit some of these conspiracies seem a little farfetched, but how is this any different than the Bill Gates conspiracies (who is not Jewish).

Not saying anti-semitism doesn't exist (it clearly does, I see it on this site all the time), just saying I am not convinced anti-semitism is the motivation for the Soros hate.

[–]Canbot 6 insightful - 4 fun6 insightful - 3 fun7 insightful - 4 fun -  (3 children)

Claims of antisemitism are nothing more than name calling. If you take them seriously you are a fool.

[–]AntarchomachusAnarchist 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (2 children)

In this instance I agree with you Canbot. I was simply noting OP's concern for anti-semitism, and while recognizing his concern, was trying to make the point that criticizing Soros in this way does not in fact constitute anything that can be fairly called anti-semitism. I was trying specifically to show him the error of this thinking

[–]AXXA 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

Thank you for your insightful dialog as always. Canbot almost seems to be claiming that antisemitism doesn't exist at all. This clearly is not true. I agree with you that criticizing Soros is valid given his actions and calling it antisemitism in order to shutdown the discussion is wrong. Philosophically I don't believe labeling speech as hate speech should ever be a valid reason to violate freedom of speech. It's too easy to apply the label and everybody will have different criteria.

[–]AntarchomachusAnarchist 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Yes I definitely agree AXXA, I think 'hate speech' is kind of a dangerous concept that can quickly become 'speech I don't agree with'. People get emotional about this topic, its understandable, I have my triggering issues too believe me. I'm glad this a place where we can at least have these kind of conversations rather than banning everyone with 'unacceptable' beliefs.

[–]iDontShift 4 insightful - 4 fun4 insightful - 3 fun5 insightful - 4 fun -  (7 children)

group that gets kicked out of 117+ countries deserves to be under a microscope for their behavior... not given a free pass

[–]Tegra 3 insightful - 3 fun3 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 3 fun -  (2 children)

There are historical reasons why Jews week kicked out all the time ( mainly because they didn't have their own country, but there are more of course ). Also it was never a single type of group that was kicked out. For example right now there is a group in Serbia ( I think ) that is about to get kicked out. Is it because all of them are Jews? No, it's because they are a fucking cult, a bunch of nut jobs that were provided a house by Taliban ( allegedly ). Some Jews were kicked out because of religious reasons. For example before the inquisition took place in Spain Jews got a choice - get out or convert to Christianity. Those who did not want to abandon their faith ( aka stuck to their principles ) left, and are seen today as being "kicked out", while as a matter of fact they chose to leave. So yeah, the argument for Jews being kicked out of countries is pretty weak.

[–]iDontShift 2 insightful - 3 fun2 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

what i saw was they were welcomed in, then secretly tried to subvert the government, found out and expelled

we are all God's chosen people.. and that is a huge part of 'the problem' for them in terms of subverting everyone else. if they were so destined to be leaders wouldn't it be easily done and within the highly visible and ultra-awesome behavior that so brought everyone else to respect and honor them.

oh, that isn't how it happened tho. they take over the banking systems and then try and dominate thru subversion

they also have things in their faith which excuses all behavior towards non-members.

i understand individually the majority are not at fault of any kind.. and in fact their leaders (look at the vaxx and death numbers in isreal) care about them as much as they care about the rest it appears.

the number of folks attached to abusive leaders is entirely why we are were we are

[–]ShalomEveryoneCommunist Party[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Well said.

Shalom

✡️

[–]AntarchomachusAnarchist 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

Didn't say anyone should given a free pass, in fact I was arguing just the opposite - that it was perfectly fair and not anti-semitic for Carlson to criticize Soros' political donations. I was simply addressing OP's argument from his perspective of concern over anti-semitism.

[–]iDontShift 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

my concern for the protection of a group that has more than enough political and functional power to protect themselves is not my concern.

[–]ShalomEveryoneCommunist Party[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Bigotry and jealousy is why they were kicked out. A small group of people who through sheer hard work and intellect were able to make something of themselves. A lot of those countries made a terrible mistake expelling Jews from their country. Jewish people made Portugal a world power, we all know what happened to Portugal after Jews left. Portugal ceased to be a world power.

Shalom

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[–]iDontShift 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

hmm, that isn't what I've actually seen, however

tesla was far superior to einstein, and einstein provable developed nothing functional

tesla however, provable developed incredible things we use every day

your delusions of superiority are the reason you will never find peace

[–]jet199 4 insightful - 4 fun4 insightful - 3 fun5 insightful - 4 fun -  (0 children)

If you hear dog whistles all the time that means you are the dog.

[–][deleted] 4 insightful - 4 fun4 insightful - 3 fun5 insightful - 4 fun -  (2 children)

George Soros was literally a Nazi.

[–]MarkimusNational Justice Party 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Yes George Soros as a 3 year old joined the NSDAP in 1933. You fucking imbecile.

[–]ShalomEveryoneCommunist Party[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

No he wasn't. What rank did he have? Which Nazi group was he a member of?

Shalom

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[–]Id123456789 3 insightful - 3 fun3 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 3 fun -  (2 children)

Tucker Carlson/Tulsi Gabbard 2024!

[–]ShalomEveryoneCommunist Party[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

lol, Tulsi is an opportunist which is why little by little she's cozying up to republicans. Tulsi's popularity as a democrat has plateaued. She wants to switch sides so she can raise her profile and earn more money.

Shalom

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[–]JasonCarswellVoluntaryist 2 insightful - 3 fun2 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

The Democrats perpetually reach ever higher levels of insanity.

Tulsi as a rational centrist is far from perfect, but she's not insane.

Tucker used to be part of the insane Right but is now allowed to be just a rational centrist.

They're only cozying up to moderate rationality, sharply contrasting with the disorientation, distraction, and division with disinformation that you shill.

[–]MrJoshua 2 insightful - 4 fun2 insightful - 3 fun3 insightful - 4 fun -  (0 children)

Tiresome title gore.

[–]shilldetector 2 insightful - 3 fun2 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

Jewish attacks on Tucker Carlson are their latest anti white racist dog whistle.

[–]ShalomEveryoneCommunist Party[S] 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (85 children)

  • Soros, who is Jewish and was born in Hungary, has been subjected to antisemitic attacks from conservatives for decades. Far-right activists and believers in the QAnon conspiracy theory have accused Soros of funding violent protests, of supporting an imagined global ring of pedophiles and of driving illegal immigration, a recurring theme in Carlson’s film.

  • “This so-called documentary, reviewed by Anti-Defamation League’s Center on Extremism, is nothing more than far-right propaganda at best, and at worst a dangerous antisemitic dog-whistle sure to be heard loud and clear by a large audience,” Jake Hyman, a spokesman for the ADL, said.

  • “Throughout the program, Carlson promotes antisemitic tropes that Soros controls world events and influences the global media, that Soros and the NGOs he funds are responsible for changing demographics in Europe, bringing in non-white immigrants and subsequently with that crime and violence to Europe.”

  • After Soros vs Hungary aired, Greenblatt tweeted: “On the eve of #HolocaustRemembranceDay, it’s appalling to see Tucker Carlson & FOX invoke the kind of antisemitic tropes typically found in white supremacist media. There’s no excuse for this kind of fear mongering, especially in light of intensifying #antisemitism.”

  • The film does not address the decades-long antisemitic attacks on Soros, although at one point in the documentary Carlson claims that the media is quick to “claim any attack on George Soros is antisemitic”.

On reddit and here, whenever people don't have the balls to be bold with their antisemitism they use Soros as a code word for Jews. If someone wants to trash Jews they just go on to trash Soros as if Soros is responsible for every little thing in the world an antisemite dislikes.

Shalom

✡️

[–][deleted] 8 insightful - 3 fun8 insightful - 2 fun9 insightful - 3 fun -  (9 children)

Soros is what cuckservatives say because they are only interested in attacking leftist agitator jews, but not rightist ones. Soros is king of the left agitators and has had a huge impact on America in the last 5 years. And he is a Jew. I say blame Soros for Soros' actions.

[–]AXXA 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

I say blame Soros for Soros' actions.

nothing else would be fair

[–]ShalomEveryoneCommunist Party[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

Soros is what cuckservatives say because they are only interested in attacking leftist agitator jews, but not rightist ones.

Soros is a catchall for Jewish people.

In far-right circles worldwide, Soros’ philanthropy often is recast as fodder for outsized conspiracy theories, including claims that he masterminds specific global plots or manipulates particular events to further his goals. Many of those conspiracy theories employ longstanding antisemitic myths, particularly the notion that rich and powerful Jews work behind the scenes, plotting to control countries and manipulate global events.

In the United States, Soros long has been a favored target of the so-called alt right and other right-wing extremists. Their online echo chambers reverberate with conspiracies about Soros, accusing him of attempting to perpetrate “white genocide” and push his own malevolent agenda.

But Soros’ Jewish identity is so well-known that in many cases it is hard not to infer that meaning. This is especially true when Soros-related conspiracy theories include other well-worn antisemitic tropes such as control of the media or banks; references to undermining societies or destabilizing countries; or language that hearkens back to the medieval blood libels and the characterization of Jews as evil, demonic, or agents of the antichrist.

I say blame Soros for Soros' actions.

You may blame Soros for Soros' actions but others use Soros to represent Jewish people all over the world hellbent on creating destruction.

Shalom

✡️

[–][deleted] 7 insightful - 3 fun7 insightful - 2 fun8 insightful - 3 fun -  (5 children)

I'm sorry that offensive conspiracies are constantly proven to be true. Shaloms.

[–]JasonCarswellVoluntaryist 2 insightful - 3 fun2 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

I'm sorry that offensive conspiracies are constantly proven to be true. Shaloms.

Never be sorry for truths of inconvenience to the ruling class and their minions.

(((They))) take (steal) offense and weaponize it at every opportunity, including when it's not given.

[–]ShalomEveryoneCommunist Party[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Have any names of the individuals who work behind the scenes to control countries and manipulate global events? With all that power you'd think there would be peace in Gaza and the Middle East because a secret group of people were able to cause hostile governments to collapse. Install puppet governments and then use their money to brainwash citizens of foreign nations to live in harmony.

Shalom

✡️

[–][deleted] 6 insightful - 2 fun6 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Palestine and Syria shrink a little bit more everyday. You've gotta do a slow boil to keep your own liberal communists on the plantation.

[–]ShalomEveryoneCommunist Party[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Proven to be true? If Jews plot and control countries and manipulate global events; why didn't Jews manipulate the Portuguese to not expel them from Portugal? Why didn't Jews manipulate Hitler into not carrying out the holocaust?

Shalom

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[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Why didn't Jews manipulate Hitler into not carrying out the holocaust?

Because something far bigger was afoot.

[–]JasonCarswellVoluntaryist 2 insightful - 3 fun2 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

Soros is a catchall for Jewish people.

You and your evil Zionists tribes are NOT the authorities of what people mean with their own words.

Again, you try to define the terms of and control communication.

[–]AntarchomachusAnarchist 6 insightful - 2 fun6 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 2 fun -  (19 children)

Seems to me Bill Gates gets similar treatment despite not being Jewish. Why is this not simply a billionaire using his money for political influence thing? That seems sufficient to explain the Soros hatred.

[–]ShalomEveryoneCommunist Party[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (18 children)

Seems to me Bill Gates gets similar treatment despite not being Jewish.

Only when it comes to vaccines. Soros is blamed for all the ill of the world. Every bad thing that happens somehow circles back to Soros and he's the one responsible.

Why is this not simply a billionaire using his money for political influence thing?

Because that's all he's doing and there is nothing inherently wrong with that. Bigots decide to use Soros as a fill-in for Jewish people because they don't have the balls to be overt with their antisemitism.

Shalom

✡️

[–]AntarchomachusAnarchist 4 insightful - 3 fun4 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 3 fun -  (17 children)

Some of the people criticizing Soros may have an anti-semitic motivation perhaps.

As far as 'nothing wrong' with using his money for political influence...Well its not illegal, but billionaires doing this are often criticized. Even right wing figures such as the Koch brothers have been criticized for this. I personally am uncomfortable with billionaires using their money like this, legal or not, which I would think a self-professed Communist would have some sympathy for.

Heres what I worry about Shalom. While anti-semitism is real and problematic, I think you are bordering on saying that anyone who criticizes a person who happens to be Jewish is automatically a bigot. I'm saying that this is painting in just as absurdly broad of strokes as racists who do the same thing

[–]JasonCarswellVoluntaryist 2 insightful - 4 fun2 insightful - 3 fun3 insightful - 4 fun -  (0 children)

Well its not illegal

Q: Who writes the rules?
A: The ruling class.

[–]ShalomEveryoneCommunist Party[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (15 children)

Even right wing figures such as the Koch brothers have been criticized for this.

But they are not used by bigots to spout of antisemitism under the guise of trashing a rich financier of political causes.

which I would think a self-professed Communist would have some sympathy for.

Flairs are to be taken with a grain of salt.

I think you are bordering on saying that anyone who criticizes a person who happens to be Jewish is automatically a bigot.

Nope, I am speaking strictly about George Soros. George Soros is code for Jews, which is why people love to accuse Soros of being responsible for everything wrong with the world. Jews are the ones typically accused of being responsible for everything wrong with the world. If someone wants to trash an asshole like Mike Bloomberg who is Jewish, they wont hear anything about antisemitism from me. Hell, I would join in on trashing that asshole. Same with trashing Netenyahu, I cant stand the guy.

I'm saying that this is painting in just as absurdly broad of strokes as racists who do the same thing

Just when it comes to Soros.

Shalom

✡️

[–]AntarchomachusAnarchist 5 insightful - 3 fun5 insightful - 2 fun6 insightful - 3 fun -  (11 children)

Flairs are to be taken with a grain of salt.

So...you are representing your ideology in bad faith and just using that flair as some kind of troll?

[–][deleted] 4 insightful - 3 fun4 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 3 fun -  (4 children)

That's the prevailing theory.

[–]AntarchomachusAnarchist 4 insightful - 3 fun4 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 3 fun -  (3 children)

I like to give people the benefit of the doubt, but it seems you guys were right.

[–]ShalomEveryoneCommunist Party[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

They're wrong.

Shalom

✡️

[–][deleted] 3 insightful - 3 fun3 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 3 fun -  (1 child)

If we're wrong and you're right, you make DAR's case against Jews which seems a little convienient. Why would you want that if you were really Jewish?

[–]ShalomEveryoneCommunist Party[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

No, I don't buy anything wholesale. I am not a zealot.

Shalom

✡️

[–]AntarchomachusAnarchist 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (4 children)

I guess I'd say this:

You very well be correct that Carlson is using Soros in this manner to drum up support among anti-semites.

However, whether or not that is his intent, I think it's hard to say that Carlson criticizing a billionaire that donates money to causes that he is against is out of line on a political opinion show.

Where precisely would you draw the line here, because it doesn't seem so clear to me

[–]ShalomEveryoneCommunist Party[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Where precisely would you draw the line here, because it doesn't seem so clear to me

Carlson has a history of coded, antisemitic language and promoting white supremacist conspiracy theories. So, for someone like him, it's clear that he's using Soros to attack Jewish people.

The Anti-Defamation League is once again calling for Fox News personality Tucker Carlson's ousting.

The "Tucker Carlson Tonight" host is under fire from the organization battling antisemitism and other types of hate for his recent comments on "The Great Replacement" theory.

"It cannot be overstated enough," ADL CEO Jonathan Greenblatt tweeted Friday. "For @TuckerCarlson, host of one of the most watched news programs in the country, to use his platform as a megaphone to spread the toxic and xenophobic 'Great Replacement' theory, is repugnant and a dangerous abuse of power."

"A reminder: 'The Great Replacement' theory and its racist and xenophobic roots have served as the inspiration for multiple mass shootings and deadly attacks," the official Twitter account for ADL shared the same day.

Shalom

✡️

[–]AntarchomachusAnarchist 2 insightful - 3 fun2 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 3 fun -  (2 children)

Carlson has a history of coded, antisemitic language and promoting white supremacist conspiracy theories. So, for someone like him, it's clear that he's using Soros to attack Jewish people.

Fair enough, I'm no fan of Carlson, and it doesn't me terribly surprise me he would use racist talking points to attack Jewish people

But would you say his anti-semitism disqualifies him from making any criticisms of any Jewish individual whatsoever, even if that criticism is valid? Can Carlson criticize Harvey Weinstein for being a raper for example? How about the Israeli government? Because I'm still not too sure what you are saying the line should be

[–]jet199 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (2 children)

I don't like Soros, I like Jews.

His his funding of trans lobby groups alone has been devastating for modern politics and young people.

The fact his supposedly pro democracy orgs actually spend their time pushing for hate speech legislation, which is then used to harass people the local police don't like or even shut down political opposition, just shows how misguided the man is.

And that's just a small part.

This guy obviously isn't at fault for all the world's problems but he very much has done great harm by pushing his out of touch ideologies without keeping track of the outcomes and we need be able to address and debate that without being called racist.

[–]ShalomEveryoneCommunist Party[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

His his funding of trans lobby groups alone has been devastating for modern politics and young people.

That's not some wild conspiracy theory. Therefore your critiques based off of what you said is not using Soros as code for Jewish people.

Shalom

✡️

[–]JasonCarswellVoluntaryist 1 insightful - 3 fun1 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

I don't like Soros, I like Jews.

Same. Most of them, like most of any people.

Don't let ShalomEveryone bullshit you. He's intentionally confusing people for individuals for ideologies and trying to redefine our language.

[–]fschmidt 4 insightful - 3 fun4 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 3 fun -  (46 children)

To correct this complete moron with the obvious... Soros worked for the Nazis. Soros is anti-Israel. Soros is purely a globalist and is not jewish in any sense except racially. Soros has a truly anti-jewish record while Tucker Carlson has none.

[–]AXXA[M] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (42 children)

/u/fschmidt please think of the Pyramid of Debate when you comment, and if you are going up or down it. Please don't drag discussion down on the Pyramid of Debate. Please don't name call. Strike 1.

/s/SaidIt/comments/j1/the_saiditnet_terms_and_content_policy/

[–]fschmidt 3 insightful - 3 fun3 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 3 fun -  (41 children)

/u/d3rr this is complete bullshit. There is nothing in the Pyramid of Debate against insults. In this case, my insult was stating a well-known fact, that ShalomEveryone is a moron. But most of my comment was actually going up the Pyramid of Debate by factually refuting the claim in this thread. AXXA is obviously modern scum who hates free speech. Fuck him/her/it. If I get another strike, I will just stop contributing to this site.

[–][deleted] 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (7 children)

The pyramid has a whole level called Name-Calling. However, I don't think you deserved a strike, you made a nice argument to go along with it.

(The Rothschilds literally put Soros on the map and funded him, I can prove it)

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

You've given me strikes for much less, dearest. From my point of view, that was obvious name calling; case closed. (Not to judge Schmidt, however, just my argument about it.)

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (5 children)

strike 1

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (4 children)

👍

🖕

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

strike 2

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 4 fun1 insightful - 3 fun2 insightful - 4 fun -  (1 child)

❄️

[–]JasonCarswellVoluntaryist 1 insightful - 3 fun1 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

💕

[–]AXXA 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (32 children)

If you look at the Pyramid of Debate, name calling is second from the bottom. Perhaps Saidit could be clearer about it but there are two basic rules.

1) Don't advocate violence.

2) Don't insult fellow Saiditors.

Your argument will be just as strong without the insults.

[–]fschmidt 4 insightful - 3 fun4 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 3 fun -  (30 children)

Okay, that's in the image. But at the top of the image is "explicitly refutes the central point" which is what most of my comment did. So in the balance, my comment was up the pyramid of debate. Only name-calling without substance would justify a strike.

[–]AXXA 5 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 2 fun -  (29 children)

Your criticism is valid. Jason has said that rules should be clear and I'm understanding now that he is right. The Saidit rules aren't as clear as they could be. Perhaps /u/magnora7 or /u/d3rr can help clarify the rules to avoid future misunderstanding.

1) Don't advocate violence.

2) Don't insult fellow Saiditors.

[–][deleted] 5 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 2 fun -  (17 children)

I think the line is name calling by itself is not allowed, advocating violence is not allowed. A little name calling or ad hominem in an otherwise productive comment is okay.

[–]AXXA 4 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 2 fun -  (16 children)

This is the middle option of the other two options (either completely allowing or completely disallowing name calling) so I can buy this. I think the name calling was unnecessary and actually makes his argument weaker. But I guess what's important is that people make an effort to present a logical argument instead of relying purely on name calling. I still think that whatever rules we have should not be subjective. I don't want to judge if they've presented a good argument or not. I don't want to have to weigh the severity of the insult against the logic of the argument. Rules should be clear stated and non-subjective so it's clear that the moderator is not imposing their bias. I'm alright with these rules if you are.

1) Don't advocate violence.

2) Don't insult other Saiditors without arguing the point.

[–][deleted] 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (14 children)

I like it. This is not judging people's insults or arguments, just whether or not one or both of them are present.

[–]JasonCarswellVoluntaryist 2 insightful - 3 fun2 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

1) Don't advocate violence.

2) Don't insult other Saiditors without arguing the point.

It's a very fair start.

Folks (mods, users, shills, etc.) may take (or steal) offense (or insult) and weaponize it at every opportunity, including when it's not given.

This is especially problematic when bad faith actors cry victim about being bullied when they're factually called out as liar, shill, sealion, troll, etc. which have no other simple words to accurately describe them. Obviously, "asstroll" is my favourite intentionally insulting portmanteau of "asshole" and "troll", which may or may not be considered fair and/or over the line to some.

Also, IMO, there can be a very creative art to skillfully insulting people in a huge variety of entertaining ways. Sadly we don't see this displayed too much on SaidIt, or anywhere for that matter, as people are generally lazy.

FYI: M7 asked me to add the "advocating violence" to the bottom of the original Pyramid Of Debate. Violence and name-calling are both generally bottom dwelling. Ad hominems are obviously not high-level debate, but SaidIt is not just about debating, and sometimes a simple summary without getting dragged down in the weeds is an effective warning to other readers.

It now occurs to me that perhaps we could perhaps develop, start, and share (here and on other sites) more shorthand codes that might help smooth some corners. For example:

  1. Ah, sarcasm, I think I've heard of that. /s
  2. Trudeau should re-legalize the guillotine. /av [audio/video]
  3. socks is a sealioning shill for authoritarianism. /nc [name-calling]
  4. ShalomEveryone can't be trusted to discuss Zionism fairly. /ah [ad hominem]
  5. wonderwoman types with a Southern accent in a deep throat. /tr [tone response]
  6. (((They))) may refer to Zionists but more commonly be Jews in general, and me trying to reclaim this single-handedly may be futile.
  7. ZZZTheyZZZ could be a better option specific to Zionists.
  8. $$$Banksters$$$, :::ruling class:::, !!!eugenicists!!!, and others might be worth developing too.

IIRC, the 3-strike system is not even mentioned in the rules, and it should be spelled out too, along with the 2-week, 2-month, 4-ever punishments, IMO.

cc /u/d3rr, /u/magnora7

[–][deleted] 3 insightful - 3 fun3 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 3 fun -  (10 children)

It's all a subjective balancing act to maintain productive debate. Schmidt combined his very very mild insult with a good factual based argument. It's a mile away from someone saying "/u/socks you are a shill piece of shit"

[–]AXXA 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (6 children)

It's not good for users or moderators for rules to be subjective. That puts moderators in a position to be required to judge the arguments to see if they're good or not. That forces the moderator to take a side in the argument instead of remaining impartial.

[–][deleted] 4 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

I agree but m7 wants it this way. If you spell things out too explicitly, people will take advantage and turn you into a lawyer, constantly adding new things to the not-allowed list.

If you want to consider all name-calling against the rules, we can do that. I'm having a hard time differentiating name calling from ad hominem myself.

[–][deleted] 4 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 2 fun -  (2 children)

Similarly, I'm down to not enforce name calling, and to just enforce calls to violence. Either one will piss off half the site. Ugh being admin sucks.

[–]JasonCarswellVoluntaryist 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

It's not good for users or moderators for rules to be subjective.

1,000,000% agreed.

That puts moderators in a position to be required to judge the arguments to see if they're good or not.

If only we had a forum where the community could vote on things like this.

[–]JasonCarswellVoluntaryist 2 insightful - 3 fun2 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 3 fun -  (2 children)

someone saying "/u/socks you are a shill piece of shit"

So you're saying that we cannot say "/u/socks you are a shill piece of shit"?

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 3 fun2 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 3 fun -  (1 child)

That's correct. No one should be saying "/u/socks is a shill piece of shit".

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Well written.

[–]ShalomEveryoneCommunist Party[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

To correct this complete moron with the obvious...

That's low pyramid of debate action you got going there.

To correct this complete moron with the obvious... Soros worked for the Nazis.

lol, that old lie.

Myth No. 1

George Soros helped the Nazis.

This is the ugliest conspiracy theory about Soros. In a “60 Minutes” segment in 1998, the interviewer, Steve Kroft, asked Soros about any “feeling of guilt” he may have carried as a survivor of the Holocaust, because, “as hundreds of thousands of Jews were being shipped off to the Nazi death camps, a 13-year-old George Soros accompanied his phony godfather on his rounds, confiscating property from the Jews.” In the interview, Soros says that he did not participate in the confiscation and was merely brought along.Nevertheless, fans of this conspiracy theory, including Rosanne Barr, have tweeted that Soros was a Nazi who had turned in fellow Jews to be murdered. In June, social media users circulated a photo of a young man in a Nazi uniform and claimed it was a picture of Soros.

In actuality Soros, whose father, Tivadar, had previously changed the family’s last name from Schwartz to Soros so as to be less obviously Jewish in an increasingly anti-Semitic Budapest, disguised himself as a Christian during the Second World War. His father procured identity papers for his own family and others. As Soros pointed out, the man with whom young Soros was hiding out did once bring him along when he went to take inventory of a Jewish person’s house, but Soros was not involved in the confiscation of Jewish goods. Likewise, while Soros was, as a student, sent to run errands at the Judenrat, a council of Jews whom the Nazis forced to do their bidding, he did not round up Jewish people. In fact, per Soros’s recollection, when he was given a list of names, with instructions to tell them to report to a location from which they would be deported, his father said he should not tell them to go.

Soros is anti-Israel.

No he's not.

In 2007, Soros wrote, “I am not a Zionist, nor am I am a practicing Jew, but I have a great deal of sympathy for my fellow Jews and a deep concern for the survival of Israel.”

I had no idea having deep concern for the survival of Israel means one is "anti-Israel".

As the article notes, Soros is used by people to spout antisemitism.

In recent years, criticism of Soros has increasingly veered into anti-Semitism, suggesting that Soros runs shadowy, conspiratorial efforts to control people or accusing him, without evidence, of being the hidden force behind progressive causes. The accusations evoke an age-old Jewish conspiracy about Jews masterminding an international conspiracy to secretly rule the world through money.

Soros is code for Jewish people, Soros is used as cover by bigots to get out their anti-semitism talking points.

Shalom

✡️

[–]fschmidt 3 insightful - 3 fun3 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

How can one avoid name-calling such a horrible liar?

Here is Soros personally admitting that he DID participate in confiscation:

https://youtu.be/SGWizajL7tA?t=160

And here is an article from Israel about Soros:

https://www.israelnationalnews.com/news/316446

So for future reference, please tell me whether you are a moron or you are a globalist tool spreading lies on behalf of the globalists? I would like to know.

[–]JasonCarswellVoluntaryist 2 insightful - 3 fun2 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

Soros is code for Jewish people

Bullshit.
Soros means Soros.

[–]Tegra 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Well... Citation needed.

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Excellent points.

[–]ShalomEveryoneCommunist Party[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Thank You.

Shalom

✡️

[–]JasonCarswellVoluntaryist 1 insightful - 3 fun1 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

Next you're going to say that "ruling class" is anti-Semitic.

[–][deleted]  (3 children)

[removed]

    [–]AXXA[M] 4 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

    [–]ShalomEveryoneCommunist Party[S] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

    Let me guess, the holocaust that took place during World War II is not real but "white genocide" is the true holocaust?

    Shalom

    ✡️

    [–]JasonCarswellVoluntaryist 1 insightful - 3 fun1 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

    Let me guess, you troll where you're not welcome to satiate masochistic fetishes ingrained via your hypocritical culture of supremacism/victimhood.