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[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (14 children)

Thanks for the info and the reference to Murrey's book.

Whatever it is that IQ tests measure we know that it predicts life outcomes and is the driving force of racial inequality.

There are many sources on the approaches to IQ tests, but none that I know go the extra step and claim that a higher IQ is always a prediction of life outcomes, even if those with a higher IQ can make quicker decisions on some analytical matters. The latter is not absolutely necessary in many cases. And IQ test scores are not traditionally the "driving force in racial inequality." Saidit and only a few other places are the only online locations of discussions about IQ and racial inequality. The vast majority of people aren't having that discussion, nor do they care.

Cavalli-Sforza and others found that human populations are genetically distinctive in ways that correspond to self-identified race

This is of course their claim, and it's a a 19th century imperial Eugenics concept, but both approaches to assumptions about significant bioloigical differences in ethnicities are debunked in many scientific and social research projects. The answer is rather simple: there are too many ethnicities to group into specific biological groups. Racism has been and will be remain a social construct, not founded in biological evidence. Regarding Murray's book, read this and other helpful reviews at Amazon:

Michael Jackson - 2.0 out of 5 stars A hereditarian edifice built on a foundation of sand - Reviewed in the United States on 1 March 2020 - Verified Purchase:

https://www.amazon.com/Human-Diversity-Biology-Gender-Class/product-reviews/1538744015/ref=cm_cr_arp_d_viewpnt_rgt?ie=UTF8&reviewerType=all_reviews&filterByStar=critical&pageNumber=1

Social constructionism holds that race and gender are shaped more by social forces and less by biological facts than people commonly realize. Charles Murray believes that this view has become an unscientific “orthodoxy,” and he offers a biological perspective that he believes can dispel much of this fuzzy thinking. It turns out that Murray’s biological perspective also rests on a great deal of fuzziness, though frequently concealed. In fairness to Murray, the genomic and psychometric research he surveys is difficult and technical. Murray recognizes this and provides several lengthy sections explaining this research clearly so that non-specialists can understand it. His success in doing so is probably the strongest feature of this book. The rest of the book, however, is more problematic. The issues are complex, and Murray does not always present the whole picture. Many readers will assume that Murray’s representations are accurate. Few will directly access the sources he cites, and fewer still will know how to evaluate the methods and findings of these sources, or the conclusions that Murray draws from them. In what follows, therefore, I will detail some significant problems with Murray’s account. NOTE: Some of the following citations refer to sources cited by Murray (indicated with an asterisk); others refer to scientific sources that will not be found in Murray’s book. Full reference information for all these sources can be found on the “References” page of my website, which can be accessed from my Amazon reviewer’s page.

To begin with, Murray consistently overstates the evidence for genetic influence and understates the evidence for environmental influence on human diversity. He devotes large sections of the book to the former, often mentioning the latter only in passing, or in endnotes, or not at all. For example, Murray makes no mention of the Flynn Effect, one of the clearest indications of environmental influence on cognition (Mackintosh, 2011); he cites several sources on the validity of twin studies (pp. 215-217) but ignores Joseph’s (2015) extensive critique of that literature; he stresses the limits of early childhood interventions but says little about the social forces that undermine them (Protzko, 2015); and in discussing stereotype threat he emphasizes publication bias, yet says nothing about such bias in the publication of brain imaging studies, where it appears to be rampant (see Jennings & Van Horn, 2012). Along similar lines, the genetic methods and technologies that Murray admires often have serious reliability issues (for example, see de Gruijter et al., 2011 and Szpak et al., 2019), yet little or no attention is given to rigorous research designs finding environmental effects (e.g., Koch, D’Mello & Sackett, 2015). These examples are not exhaustive and several more will be given below. But Murray’s general stance is worth noting here—as is the fact that he frequently tags biological and genetic studies with adjectives like “seminal,” and “highly regarded” (pp. 102, 438), while ignoring or dismissing research widely recognized as supporting social construction (e.g., *Lewontin, 1972).

It should be kept in mind that nearly all the evidence that Murray cites to argue for genetic determination is correlational. Even the brain imaging studies he reviews typically show neural correlates whose causal relationships to developmental and environmental influences are complex, multi-directional, interactive, and largely unknown. Most college students understand that correlation does not prove causation; but they rarely grasp just how ubiquitous and persistent correlation/causation fallacies actually are. Even professional researchers commit these fallacies when they survey vast fields of interrelated variables and make conscious or unconscious assumptions about causation which they then import into interpretations of the data based on circular reasoning. Hereditarians like Murray are notorious for falling into these traps—and some, like Arthur Jensen, for diving into them. Such fallacies are particularly misleading when used to portray group differences as genetic, not only because they frequently scapegoat ethnic minorities and confuse the public, but also because they concern processes of such complexity (like the neural interactions described above) that inferences about genetic causation are essentially unfalsifiable—i.e., nothing can be decisively proven or disproven, so anything goes. [...]

[...] Murray now hopes to redefine membership in those same groups, not by phenotypic but by genotypic markers—whereupon psychological measurements, bogusly interpreted as genetic (see below), will establish the same old circular justification. Meet the new conflation; same as the old one.

This conflation becomes more clear as Murray explains how his ancestral population clusters were discovered. Researchers led by Noah Rosenberg (*Rosenberg, Pritchard, & Weber, 2002) using a computer program called Structure found that the genomes of people whose ancestors came from each geographical continent are slightly more similar to each other than they are to those whose ancestors came from different continents. This is not surprising since genetic variants (alleles) change frequencies over time as populations disperse through migration, and these populations can therefore be expected to show greater similarity to neighboring populations and less similarity to more distant ones. But to Murray and others looking for a scientific basis for race, these clusters of genetic similarity hold great significance since they roughly align with the five major geographical continents (Africa, Europe, Asia, the Americas, and Oceania) and the racial associations of these continents for most Americans.

But there are problems with this interpretation. First, the Structure program presupposes that the data will form clusters and that the number of such clusters will be whatever the researcher tells it to find. There are different techniques for deciding if a particular input number identifies objectively real clusters—but these techniques are complex, often vary with sampling, and do not always agree with each other. [...] Overall, therefore, the human ancestral structure appears to be much more complex and multi-leveled than Murray portrays it, and not particularly supportive of the continental race theory.

Another problem for Murray is that race categories only weakly differentiate people genetically. This was first discovered by *Lewontin (1972), who found that only about 6% of genetic variance in humans is associated with traditionally defined racial categories (Murray’s wording on p. 130 misleadingly implies that the number was close to 15%). [...]

Murray knows this, and he has already, in effect, preemptively admitted it at the beginning of his “race” section—where he acknowledges that cluster differences are “minor,” and even adds that there are “many ways in which race is a social construct” (p. 157). But Murray is determined to keep this construct alive, and to do so he must show that race is intrinsically biological. [...]

[... review continues... - read at Amazon.com]

Overall, then, Murray’s argument, both in this section and throughout the book, can be described as a hereditarian polemic. It rests on skewed data, over-interpretations of favored sources, under-interpretations of critical ones, and subtle (or not-so-subtle) misrepresentations of research findings. The result is an impressive edifice of hereditarian ideology built on a conceptual foundation of sand.

[–]FoxySDTWhite Nationalist 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (13 children)

There are many sources on the approaches to IQ tests, but none that I know go the extra step and claim that a higher IQ is always a prediction of life outcomes,

You have one now.

See Table 1. IQ is better predictor of education, occupation and income than parental SES is. [1]

And IQ test scores are not traditionally the "driving force in racial inequality."

They are. Controlling for IQ eliminates racial gap in incomes, graduation rates and occupational status. In other words, if blacks had IQ of 100 there would be no racial gap in these three life outcomes. [1]

Regarding Murray's book, read this and other helpful reviews at Amazon:

In what way is it helpful? I only linked that book because I didn't want to bother looking for 10 different studies on cluster analysis. You can go straight to the bibliography if you don't like the book.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (12 children)

The main problem is that there are unscientific approaches to maniplations of IQ data in order to push a racist agenda, by contrast to scientific and anthropological data that has shown since the early 20th century how Eugenics and these IQ studies are skewing data in the direction of favoring a master white race of some sort. Moreover, blacks often have IQs above 100, as do other groups of people. It's not that difficult to test above 100. For groups of people unfamiliar with IQ tests, it's unfair to include them in a study with people familiar with IQ tests. The approaches of the sources you mention - including Murray's bibliography of authors - are of course heavily biased against any data that does not suit their purposes, including especially all of the research and evidence since the early 20th century that Eugenics cannot address the rich variety of ethnicities in society. Look also to the logical outcomes of these discussions about IQs among one group of people. Would you plan to segregate these people, to keep them away from the higher IQ people? We know this doesn't work. Marry a white person if you want, and do not pass judgement on someone else if they marry someone who is not white. It's as simple of that. There will be no genetically pure race of people, ever. There will always be a mixture of some sort.

[–]radicalcentristNational Centrism[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (11 children)

And one more thing to point out socks,

Even when Blacks have scored above 100 on IQ test, that doesn't mean they're still equal or the smartest. In fact, the smartest blacks are actually closer to the the poorest and dumbest whites. That's how big of a gulf we are talking with intelligence. It goes waaaaaaaaay higher than where you think it stops...

https://files.catbox.moe/btnlkd.png

I only care about facts, so dismissing this evidence with "it hurts my feelings" is completely unscientific. All the answers are staring us right in the face, but people are still arrogant enough to look at the above graph and say "I see no difference".

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (10 children)

Thank you - though it seems your long comments in the threads are focused exclusivly on Blacks in the US and their minor differences in IQ scores. If you want to address "race and IQ", you have to consider race in general and IQ in general, and you have to consider all of the available research, not just the bits you like. You also have to consider income disparities and privileges of those who can afford an education, or a reasnable diet. You also have to see what your anti-Black concerns would lead to if you were able to implement solutions for their segregation from other groups. And you have to consider the recent statistics, rather than charts from 1995, to see that the SAT scores are improving among Blacks, and are not so different from the scores of some other groups, here: https://blog.prepscholar.com/average-sat-scores-over-time Essentially: the IQ and SAT differences are significant, especially when one considers other social and economic factors, opportunities to get in to good high schools, to be taught by good teachers, and to have time to study for exams, rather than keep a job after work, or engage in sports. Average SAT scores are better among those who've had a number of privileges, and who were pushed to study every night. There are going to be improvements in scores, and the current differences are not significant.

[–]radicalcentristNational Centrism[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

Thank you - though it seems your long comments in the threads are focused exclusivly on Blacks in the US and their minor differences in IQ scores.

No, that is false. I clearly posted a link to the Japan IQ study as proof they have always been smarter than the West in the past 100 years.

The Black/White IQ has been the most extensively studied so it tends to be referenced more. But it's a fallacy to think the comparisons are only meant for those races. I talk about Brazil all the time and that's a country that is rife with mixing races from all over the world. But it's not in the top 10 of most powerful or successful countries. As it's always been understood, Brazil is actually third world with a government that is dysfunctional. In other words, it's a leading model for why mixing different biological IQ's ends in misery and failure.

You also have to consider income disparities and privileges of those who can afford an education, or a reasnable diet.

All of Eastern Europe was under Communism from 1945 ~ 1989. That meant 99% of the population was poor and starving. Yet, even when compared to Africa at the same time, they were light years ahead of them. Who put the first man and satellite into Space? The Soviets did.

If you think the average citizen of the Soviet Union was privileged or even anywhere as rich, you are nuts.

And you have to consider the recent statistics, rather than charts from 1995, to see that the SAT scores are improving among Blacks, and are not so different from the scores of some other groups, here:

You are lying. It says Whites score 1112, Asians scored 1239 and Blacks scored 934. Where does that put Blacks? Less smarter than both groups...

By the way, that website is kinda cheating because it combines both math and english SAT scores together. When you break it down by just math, the racial differences are almost 1.5x as big. As well as the fact the Black math scores have stayed flat for 10+ years...

https://files.catbox.moe/8zmnk2.png

Average SAT scores are better among those who've had a number of privileges, and who were pushed to study every night.

So why don't black people leave America then and go live in their own countries that would award them "privileges"? Why are they still living in a White country that claims to depress their IQ, when Africa is a big continent absent of them?

This is the hypocritical double standard being pushed by you. If Blacks still fail at school while living in rich Western socities that clearly offer them more, than why aren't we seeing more black geniuses coming out from places that are 100% black?

There are going to be improvements in scores, and the current differences are not significant.

So being 2x richer is not significant?

Blacks once again fall at the bottom, whereas Whites & Asian are 1.5 ~ 2x wealthier. This denial is getting ridiculous.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ethnic_groups_in_the_United_States_by_household_income

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

So much to address here I don't know where to begin. Essentially, you are picking the most convenient examples, rather than looking at the appropriate spread of data. And it's not cheating to combine English and Math scores. Also keep in mind that there are several forms of intelligence. If you've taken the SAT and you know others who've taken the SAT, you will know how miniscule the difference of 100 or 200 points are for the overall results of that test, and that this is ONLY an example of how those students were able to prepare for the test, many of whom have had special guidance. I remember your note on the Japanese study, which is just one example. And let's not forget what it is you hope to achieve with this focus on minor differences in IQ and SAT scores.

[–]radicalcentristNational Centrism[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

And it's not cheating to combine English and Math scores.

Being good at English but bad at Math will disqualify you from a lot of jobs. Why do you think they offer separate courses in school instead of combining them? It would be useless.

Essentially, you are picking the most convenient examples, rather than looking at the appropriate spread of data.

My spread of data literally compares continents. Europeans, even when they were poor and starving, are still smarter than all of African history. In fact, there is nothing to imply the opposite.

The examples of IQ Testing and SAT Scores in America are just micro examples of the many race differences that exist. We have world history as proof that European and Asian intelligence is objectively higher than Blacks.

Also keep in mind that there are several forms of intelligence.

Here's a riddle for you. Since when are all forms of intelligence weighted the same? Once again, someone who can solve math problems more faster is qualified to do jobs that just speaking English wont carry you far enough.

If you've taken the SAT and you know others who've taken the SAT, you will know how miniscule the difference of 100 or 200 points are for the overall results of that test

Given what we know about Race & Income, those 200 points are enough to make 2x the salaries or be 2x more likely to become CEO's than blacks.

I remember your note on the Japanese study, which is just one example.

Hong Kong is the exact same thing. And so is Taiwan, South Korea and Singapore. It once again boils down to Race that gives these people an advantage over the West.

And let's not forget what it is you hope to achieve with this focus on minor differences in IQ and SAT scores.

What we need to achieve is forcibly removing Black people out of White countries because they've failed to close the gap after 400 years. Since you claim oppression is holding back their intelligence, there is no moral reason to keep Black people around White people since they will always struggle. You and I would thus agree, a one way ticket to Africa would solve their intelligence problems...

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

What we need to achieve is forcibly removing Black people out of White countries because they've failed to close the gap after 400 years.

Dude.

Not to change the subject, but this is indeed impossible. For evidence of difficulties everyone would face, look to historical accounts of forced expulsions. These have been humanitarian crises. Moreover - assume you have a way to determing exactly who you consider 'black' and then a reliable means to expel them. What then? Look also at history texts for this. It would be civil war, and destroy the social fabric of the US. Other minorities would also be expelled. It's not like the racist thugs are going to expel one group and then leave the other groups alone, because of an IQ or SAT test. Many of these low-IQ thugs will want to remove other minorities. Consider the shadow costs of trying to reverse historical trends, even if it were possible (which it isn't).

[–]radicalcentristNational Centrism[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

Dude. Not to change the subject, but this is indeed impossible. For evidence of difficulties everyone would face, look to historical accounts of forced expulsions. These have been humanitarian crises. Moreover - assume you have a way to determing exactly who you consider 'black' and then a reliable means to expel them. What then? Look also at history texts for this. It would be civil war, and destroy the social fabric of the US.

Malcolm X preached the exact same thing about mandatory separation up until his assassination in the 1960s. And before him, Marcus Garvey had paid for his own line of ships to ferry across descendants of slaves back to Africa. Neither men brought about civil war.

But more importantly, this procedure should actually be self voluntary. Once again, in your own words you claim that Blacks living next to Whites is impacting their intelligence. Any Black person can pack their bags and thus leave America themselves. Who is holding them back here? It can't be White people.

In fact, it's only non-whites who benefit from being around white people. White people have NOTHING to gain by being chained down next to blacks and other minorities. That's not how the race relations work.

Other minorities would also be expelled. It's not like the racist thugs are going to expel one group and then leave the other groups alone, because of an IQ or SAT test.

So what's the issue with these minorities returning to their own country? For example, Mexico quite obviously borders the U.S. What are Mexican Americans afraid of if they had go back home? Are they afraid of... other Mexicans? Sorry but that's not the White man's problem, especially since minorities complain that White people "oppress" them.

Consider the shadow costs of trying to reverse historical trends, even if it were possible (which it isn't).

America has wasted trillions of dollars on pointless wars and even spreading diversity itself. If every non-white person left the country, the expenses would pay for itself in just a day. Or look at last year's George Floyd riots? That was the most expensive riot in U.S history. America would never have to pay for such a thing if all blacks had left the country and never returned...

But oddly, you still haven't answered my question. Why are non-whites forcing themselves to live around Whites while complaining that the system oppresses them? Since when does it make sense to run and live next to your oppressor, instead of trying to get away from them?