The wrong side won WW2.

submitted by radicalcentristNational Centrism from self.debatealtright

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[–]RichtoffLud 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (18 children)

Good text. I think it's almost unanimous (here) that Allies were the real villains of the WWII, they committed a series of massacres and tried to hide as much as possible from the history books or try to lessen the responsibility (rewriting the facts), such as Katyn Massacre, Dresden massacre, Bloody Sunday, Bromberg, Bleiburg massacre and Cossacks, and many others, like the denials of peace that Churchill received from Germany. But, how could the Axis win the war? the economic union of the allies was much higher, and they still had the help of Jewish bankers, which controlled the entire economy of the allies (and who also occupied the highest positions in the USSR)

[–][deleted]  (16 children)

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    [–]casparvoneverecBig tiddy respecter 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

    Germans had several shots at victory but they missed them. First was not fully mobilizing the economy from 1940 or 41 onwards utilizing the immense industrial resources of Germany and occupied Europe.

    Another chance was to knock Britain out of the war by concentrating on bombing British ports particularly London, Liverpool, Southhampton and Kent. Mass destruction of ports would've starved Britain of food and oil. The Luftwaffe was instead devoted to ineffectual attacks against the RAF and then terror bombing British cities.

    The other chance was after the battle of Kiev and before the battle of Stalingrad. If the Germans didn't divert towards Moscow and Stalingrad and instead took Kuban, Krasnodar and the areas in the Donetsk and Don river basins, the Soviets would've faced mass starvation and would've been on their knees.

    [–]Bullet-Jesus 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

    Another chance was to knock Britain out of the war by concentrating on bombing British ports particularly London, Liverpool, Southhampton and Kent. Mass destruction of ports would've starved Britain of food and oil. The Luftwaffe was instead devoted to ineffectual attacks against the RAF and then terror bombing British cities.

    There was a good reason the Luftwaffe targeted the RAF; it was to create an air dominance to enable an invasion. Once the possibility of air dominance was lost the Luftwaffe resorted to night raids, which prevented them from targeting anything as small as a port with any efficacy.

    Besides it was unfeasible to fly a bomber across the UK to attack Liverpool, a formation would be intercepted long before then.

    If the Germans didn't divert towards Moscow and Stalingrad and instead took Kuban, Krasnodar and the areas in the Donetsk and Don river basins, the Soviets would've faced mass starvation and would've been on their knees.

    The Germans didn't divert towards Moscow throughout August and September Army Group Center divisions were redirected to consolidate their flanks and and were instrumental in allowing Army Group South to breakthrough and encircle Keiv.

    As for Stalingrad it was a key logistical and communications hub for the Soviet South. An offensive into Kuban that didn't neutralize Stalingrad was vulnerable to a counter attack. As we've seen when the 6th army was destroyed, it forced the Germans to abandon the caucuses.

    [–]radicalcentristNational Centrism[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (11 children)

    Germany was working on a long range bomber that was suppose to reach the U.S. Combine this with atomic weapons (since every side back then was researching it), and that might have been their only chance at forcing a surrender.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amerikabomber

    [–]Bullet-Jesus 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

    Nazi nukes is a pretty big longshot. The Nazi's had neither the knowhow, resources or will to pursue the nuclear option.

    The material used in the trinity test was bought specifically by the Allies to prevent Germany getting it and German facilities that could even be involved in a nuclear program were surgically targeted by Allies bombing and special forces.

    Any German program will be years behind an Allied one and I shudder to imagine the Allied bombing campaign dropping more nukes than they did historically.

    [–]radicalcentristNational Centrism[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

    Source on Germany being decades away from a-bomb?

    Every anecdote says the opposite, but it wouldn't have been as powerful as the weapons used on Hiroshima & Nagasaki.

    https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/article/nazis-and-the-bomb/

    By the very end of the war, the Germans had progressed from horizontal and spherical layer designs to three-dimensional lattices of uranium cubes immersed in heavy water. They had also developed a nuclear reactor design that almost, but not quite, achieved a controlled and sustained nuclear fission chain reaction. During the last months of the war, a small group of scientists working in secret under Diebner and with the strong support of the physicist Walther Gerlach, who was by that time head of the uranium project, built and tested a nuclear device. At best this would have been far less destructive than the atomic bombs dropped on Japan. Rather it is an example of scientists trying to make any sort of weapon they could in order to help stave off defeat. No one knows the exact form of the device tested. But apparently the German scientists had designed it to use chemical high explosives configured in a hollow shell in order to provoke both nuclear fission and nuclear fusion reactions. It is not clear whether this test generated nuclear reactions, but it does appear as if this is what the scientists had intended to occur.

    [–]Bullet-Jesus 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

    I never said Germany was decades away from a nuclear weapon, I said and meant years. I reckon that if they had had the time, resources and will Germany could have had it's own trinity before 1960 at the latest's. But of course that relies on them winning or at least stalemating the war.

    [–]send_nasty_stuffNational Socialist 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

    The National Socialist Government was quite close to nuclear capabilities. They had a heavy water plant and before Warner Heisenberg absconded (and got himself killed) they were months away from developing a pineapple sized piece of uranium.

    EMJ did a good write up on Heisenberg in Vol 38 of culture wars

    https://culturewars.com/volumes-31-40/cw-38-2

    You can read the start of it here

    https://www.unz.com/ejones/werner-heisenberg-and-jewish-science-part-i/

    [–]Bullet-Jesus 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

    heavy water plant

    Is this the Norwegian one or is it another one in Germany?

    Warner Heisenberg absconded (and got himself killed)

    What? Is there another Heisenberg? Werner Heisenberg died in 1976.

    pineapple sized piece of uranium.

    "Pineapple sized piece" of what kind of uranium? Trinity and Fatman used 6.2kg and 6.4kg of plutonium for their cores respectively; Little boy required some 64kg of enriched Uranium.

    Looking at what the Alsos Mission recovered and what was taken off of U-234, it is evident that Germany had enough unprocessed Uranium in 1945 to produce a bomb; the hard bit would be constructing a place to refine it all. If they could do all that they might test a device before 1950.

    If Germany had managed to stall out the war for another 5 years or so they may have been able to produce weapons-grade uranium in sufficient quantities to deploy atomic weapons in the war. An interesting thought is that had the German leadership focused on developing atomic weapons in the early 30s they might have had a functioning arsenal before the war even began but hindsight is 20-20.

    [–]send_nasty_stuffNational Socialist 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

    What? Is there another Heisenberg? Werner Heisenberg died in 1976.

    It's been a few years since I read the piece. Maybe it was another scientist that died when he was defecting.

    "Pineapple sized piece" of what kind of uranium?

    Again can't remember and can't get a hold of the full article right now. If I find it I will post it.

    [–]TheJamesRocket 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

    Is this the Norwegian one or is it another one in Germany?

    The Germans had two heavy water plants up and running during the war. They had the well known Norsk Hydro plant in Rjukan, and the I.G. Farben plant in Leuna (near Berlin). Both of these were bombed out of commission.

    "Pineapple sized piece" of what kind of uranium?

    The quote from Heisenberg was about the quantity of enriched uranium he believed was necessary to initiate a nuclear explosion. The bomb itself would obviously be larger than just the uranium content alone.

    it is evident that Germany had enough unprocessed Uranium in 1945 to produce a bomb; the hard bit would be constructing a place to refine it all

    The German scientists had been working on the process of uranium enrichment since 1941. They invented several different methods of achieving this: Through centrifuges, isotope sluices, and mass spectrometers. All of these devices were actually in operation by 1944. The problem was that the Germans simply did not make enough of them, and as a result, they were only able to result small quantitys of uranium before the war ended.

    [–]TheJamesRocket 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

    Nazi nukes is a pretty big longshot. The Nazi's had neither the knowhow, resources or will to pursue the nuclear option.

    Thats not true. The Germans had the technical knowledge to embark on a nuclear program. The resources could have been made available, it the leadership had recognised the importance of it.

    The material used in the trinity test was bought specifically by the Allies to prevent Germany getting it

    What are you talking about? That small bit of uranium carried by the U-boat that was captured, U-234? That was nothing compared to the thousands of tons of uranium mined by Germany during the war.

    and German facilities that could even be involved in a nuclear program were surgically targeted by Allies bombing and special forces.

    A serious nuclear program would have its infrastructure located well inside German territory, making it less exposed to aerial bombing. It would also be more heavily defended by radar, flak artillery, etc.

    Any German program will be years behind an Allied one and I shudder to imagine the Allied bombing campaign dropping more nukes than they did historically.

    If the Nazis embarked on a crash program in 1942 (at the same time as the Americans), they might get an atomic bomb in 1946. Thats not early enough to respond to any atomic attacks on German citys in 1945, but it would be available for the next year. That would probably be enough to deter the Allies from launching any more attacks, and allow the war to end in a stalemate.

    [–]Bullet-Jesus 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

    What are you talking about?

    Germany had access to only captured and domestic supplies of Uranium. They couldn't import it through neutral Sweden as the Allies bought up the global production of Uranium with the specific intent of depriving Germany of it.

    A serious nuclear program would have its infrastructure located well inside German territory, making it less exposed to aerial bombing. It would also be more heavily defended by radar, flak artillery, etc.

    Naturally but this is all getting into the issue of the war situation. Without significant changes no German nuclear site is beyond the reach of Allied bombing by 1945.

    If the Nazis embarked on a crash program in 1942 (at the same time as the Americans), they might get an atomic bomb in 1946. Thats not early enough to respond to any atomic attacks on German citys in 1945, but it would be available for the next year.

    Perhaps. But again 1946 is too late without changes to the war situation.

    I don't really think that a successful German nuclear program is impossible just that by the time the Germans could have realised that Nukes could help them the war was already over.

    [–]TheJamesRocket 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

    Germany had access to only captured and domestic supplies of Uranium.

    The mines in Belgium provided more than enough uranium for their purposes. During the war, the Germans mined 3500 tons of uranium.

    Naturally but this is all getting into the issue of the war situation. Without significant changes no German nuclear site is beyond the reach of Allied bombing by 1945.

    Only if the USAAF moved their B-29 bomber squadrons to Britain. Those were the only aircraft with enough range to hit targets in Poland and fly back out. And those would be vulnerable to interception by aircraft like the Ta-152 fighter and the Me-262 jet fighter.

    [–]casparvoneverecBig tiddy respecter 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

    Amerikabomber even if realized wouldn't be useful as it would simply be shot down by masses of US fighters patrolling US air space. Bombers couldn't do their job without fighter escorts. The allies learned this the hard way from 1940-1943. The allied air campaign only defeated the Luftwaffe and crushed German industry with the advent of the P-51D Mustang. It had a combat radius of 1800 kilometers and could safely escort US bombers to their targets in Germany.

    [–]Bullet-Jesus 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

    Capturing the BEF at Dunkirk and forcing Churchill to negotiations would probably have been the best chance.

    It probably would be the best chance but even then it is not likely. By the time Churchill was PM he had utterly united the British nation behind the war effort. The was no political will to call it quits then.

    Even had the British been interested in talks, Hitler's word was extremely suspect by 1940, with Czechoslovakia and all that.

    The next best chance would have been, if Japan had started a second front against the Soviet Union. In this scenario, Stalin would have had to split up his army. This might have been enough for the Axis to win some of the important battles.

    This is a real longshot. By 41' Japan had no capacity to launch an invasion of the Soviet Union and after Khalkhin Gol likely wouldn't have won anyway.

    The most significant thing the Japanese could have done is close the Pacific lend-lease route. However in '41 and '42 Allied lend-lease to the USSR was fairly limited and by the time it came into effect in significant amounts Germany had definitively lost the initiative in the East.

    Theorising about ways for the Axis to win WW2 is possible but you often have to go further back than '39 or even '33, in order to create a believably chain of events that would lead to a German victory.

    [–]TheJamesRocket 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

    But, how could the Axis win the war?

    Simple: All they had to do was knock the Soviet Union out of the war.

    If they did that, then the Anglo-Americans could never invade Europe.

    As a result, the war ends in a stalemate. Since the Allied objective was to defeat the Nazis, they lose by default.