You have to list your policies and pitch them to a normie. What do you say?

submitted by NeoRail from self.debatealtright

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[–]MarkimusNational Socialist 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (19 children)

Things like debt and credit have obviously played a very destructive role over the past century, but what if they are necessary to run a modern economy? It's thoughts like this which keep me from forming a more decisive opinion on finance

Eh not really. Hitler figured out MMT and states still use it today. The only reason it's debt-based today is because they want to enslave the people, if we nationalised the banks and just did it Hitler style it could work fine.

Islamic banking has a lot of solutions to anti-usury finance, the Knights Templar were a financial organisation too. I'm sure there's a book somewhere that describes the kind of ethical lending they did, I'm not informed on their specifics though. (I just googled this and apparently they were usurious, not entirely sure about that.)

In terms of approaching the economic issue, my perspective would be closer to just nationalising the assets of all megacorporations, as well as heavy industry, powerful big business, banks, natural resources, land, housing etc. The property of people who are middle class or below would be basically completely untouched, but corporatocratic power would be crippled.

Same. I'd nationalise the primary sector except most food production. I'd use the above described method to take unproductive ownership out of the secondary and tertiary sectors and into the hands of the productive elements. I'd also nationalise public goods like energy, infrastructure, water, gas etc. I just don't think these policies are as important to a normal person because they don't directly impact them as much, they'd get cheaper public transport, and bills but it's not as impactful as their housing costs and wages improving. But yeah I agree 100% on these things.

Reforms like this address more tangible things and seem simpler to ponder, whereas with stuff like the stock market, even though I have put some research into it, I couldn't possibly tell you what its full role in the economy is or give you an exhaustive list of its functions.

Nobody can, there is no purpose. The conceit is that it's about investment but we won't have a private-interest based economy, we will have a common-good based economy. If it's in the interest of the people and the state for a certain sector or business to get investment it can come organically from the workers and the state. There's no need for speculation it's just a tool for rich people to manipulate the economy to steal unimaginable amounts of wealth from the productive masses who toil in the actual businesses. Look at what Paul Singer did to that town in Nebraska (Tucker's Vulture Capitalism segment), this is what speculation is with the mask off.

One thing I forgot to mention is the right to work, I would have constant public works programs going on so everyone who wants to work has the ability to work, instead of today's condition where there's too many people and not enough jobs which is intentionally created by capitalists to keep wages down.

[–]NeoRail[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (18 children)

Eh not really. Hitler figured out MMT and states still use it today. The only reason it's debt-based today is because they want to enslave the people, if we nationalised the banks and just did it Hitler style it could work fine.

What would that consist in?

Islamic banking has a lot of solutions to anti-usury finance

I am not familiar with Islamic banking. Is there anything in particular that caught your attention?

Look at what Paul Singer did to that town in Nebraska (Tucker's Vulture Capitalism segment), this is what speculation is with the mask off.

Some of that stuff is downright unbelievable. It's hard for me to imagine what you could call a "functioning economy" - by any definition - that can include this type of behaviour.

[–]MarkimusNational Socialist 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (13 children)

I dont know the ins and outs of MMT im not much of a moneyfag but im familiar with what hitler did and people refer to it as MMT. Basically was just quantitative easing, labour backed currency, public works programs. Currently private banks print the money and put it into the economy, and i think the government 'borrows' this from the bank so the people at large have to pay interest on the economic stimulus essentially creating 2 inflationary factors (usury + more volume of currency). Kerry Bolton's article on German Big Business mentions the monetary policy hitler pursued in a little bit of detail, it's hosted on a site called inconvenienthistory.

I can't find the article i usually link and im not on my pc, i can send it to you tomorrow. Essentially there is no interest, instead they have like shared liability and such. So instead of receiving a loan the bank will become a partner and share in profits and losses, you can eventually buy out their share too. Stuff like that, there are a few different approaches they take to different kinds of loans though. I'll search my comment archive and get you the link to the article tomorrow.

[–]NeoRail[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (12 children)

Can you tell me what the effects and purpose of a labour-backed currency are?

Essentially there is no interest, instead they have like shared liability and such. So instead of receiving a loan the bank will become a partner and share in profits and losses, you can eventually buy out their share too.

This sounds really interesting.

[–]MarkimusNational Socialist 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (11 children)

Kerry Bolton wrote a relevant article that talks about some of the financial/monetary side of Germany

Can you tell me what the effects and purpose of a labour-backed currency are?

"We were not foolish enough to try to make a currency backed by gold of which we had none, but for every mark that was issued we required the equivalent of a mark's worth of work done or goods produced. . . .we laugh at the time our national financiers held the view that the value of a currency is regulated by the gold and securities lying in the vaults of a state bank."

In Germany it was pretty much done by necessity because they had no gold. The value of the currency is tied to the productive economy itself rather than FIAT or metal speculation, for me it's moreso of a philosophy thing rather than thinking the backing of a currency has some real world effect as if by magic. There's the sperg arguments about FIAT vs gold and shit but these are ultimately meaningless, the value of your currency is about how much power the state has not the arbitrary distinction between a tangible good and abstract FIAT. Simply because both of them become abstracted by speculation anyway and we are in the era of MMT and stuff so the actual backing of currency is actually just irrelevant.

With that said I prefer this method because it embodies the anti-speculation, pro-work philosophy of a folkish/nationalist/socialist state. Instead of the value of the currency changing depending on speculators on a market it is non-inflationary and how much is printed is directly related to the productive capacity of the Folk. Something like the classic George Soros currency crash destroying economies wouldn't be possible in a non-speculative economy.

An article on the topic

[–]NeoRail[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (10 children)

Can you clarify a couple of things for me? Should I assume that a labour-backed currency would work with single-use banknotes, so that each labour hour can only be redeemed once? If you are familiar with Richard Wolff's work, is it like labour credits that you can "use up" or do these notes remain in circulation? If they remain in circulation, would that not cause inflation, since you would presumably need to print more banknotes to match each hour of labour?

Entirely circumventing the use of currency in foreign trade seems pretty clear.

The second article also referred to this system as a type of FIAT currency, which I find a bit confusing. Transferring control of fiscal policy (like printing money, determining value etc) from a private bank (like the Federal Reserve) to the government seems pretty intuitive to me, but I always thought of that as a FIAT approach and not something necessarily related to backing up currency with labour. I just thought of it as "nationalised" modern fiscal policy, I suppose. I feel like this might differ from what you are describing in some way, though.

[–]MarkimusNational Socialist 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

Can you clarify a couple of things for me? Should I assume that a labour-backed currency would work with single-use banknotes, so that each labour hour can only be redeemed once? If you are familiar with Richard Wolff's work, is it like labour credits that you can "use up" or do these notes remain in circulation? If they remain in circulation, would that not cause inflation, since you would presumably need to print more banknotes to match each hour of labour?

They remain in circulation and are only issued with public works programs with a predetermined value for each project. Hitler determined that 1 billion Reichsmarks would be put into circulation for his public works programs initially for example.

The second article also referred to this system as a type of FIAT currency, which I find a bit confusing.

Yeah that was my bad. I usually think of FIAT as inherently tied to fractional reserve banking and that kinda stuff but I just googled it and it seems like it refers to any currency that is not tied to commodity reserves. So labour backed currency would be included under that definition which is why the author said that, Kerry Bolton also refers to the Third Reich's currencies as FIAT. So yeah it was just me not knowing the precise definition of FIAT (I got zogged by lolberts in all actuality)

Transferring control of fiscal policy (like printing money, determining value etc) from a private bank (like the Federal Reserve) to the government seems pretty intuitive to me, but I always thought of that as a FIAT approach and not something necessarily related to backing up currency with labour. I just thought of it as "nationalised" modern fiscal policy, I suppose. I feel like this might differ from what you are describing in some way, though.

I don't think it differs, this is pretty much exactly what should be done imo.

Another short Kerry Bolton article on the topic of anti-usury/non-inflationary currency. A Russian villager made his own currency for farmers because they were too poor with rubles to exchange anything, he made his own currency with determined values to simple farm products and the local economy was flourishing. The Russian government ended up shutting his currency down and he came back with a cryptocurrency lol. Pretty interesting stuff.

[–]NeoRail[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

They remain in circulation and are only issued with public works programs with a predetermined value for each project. Hitler determined that 1 billion Reichsmarks would be put into circulation for his public works programs initially for example.

Interesting. What do you think about deliberately induced inflation or deflation? For example, South Korea has for a very long time tried to keep its currency cheap in order to strengthen the position of its exports by undercutting states with expensive currencies.

I don't think it differs, this is pretty much exactly what should be done imo.

Good to know, finance talk can be a bit ambiguous, in my experience.

A Russian villager made his own currency for farmers because they were too poor with rubles to exchange anything, he made his own currency with determined values to simple farm products and the local economy was flourishing. The Russian government ended up shutting his currency down and he came back with a cryptocurrency lol. Pretty interesting stuff.

I wonder if the cryptocurrency stuff will work out for him. I think there have been some issues with crypto in America lately or at least that's what I have heard. I am surprised that the Russian government would crack down on something so low scale, though, but it might have to do with trying not to set a legal precedent that can be useful to the mafia or the black market types. I don't know.

[–]MarkimusNational Socialist 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Interesting. What do you think about deliberately induced inflation or deflation? For example, South Korea has for a very long time tried to keep its currency cheap in order to strengthen the position of its exports by undercutting states with expensive currencies.

I don't really know anything about deflation, I remember Mosley saying it was bad in one of his speeches or something but I don't really know how it works. I've seen China also doing what you talked about though, controlling the currency price to benefit their economy I think that's fine as long as it's to the benefit of the state and people.

I wonder if the cryptocurrency stuff will work out for him. I think there have been some issues with crypto in America lately or at least that's what I have heard. I am surprised that the Russian government would crack down on something so low scale, though, but it might have to do with trying not to set a legal precedent that can be useful to the mafia or the black market types. I don't know.

Yeah was probably moreso about the principle rather than the specifics. I can't imagine they would be mad about a small farm village trading lol, but who knows how petty they are maybe there was a jewish judge or something lmao.

[–]NeoRail[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I don't really know anything about deflation, I remember Mosley saying it was bad in one of his speeches or something but I don't really know how it works.

I am curious, do you remember in what context Mosley criticised deflation?

[–]MarkimusNational Socialist 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Can you clarify a couple of things for me? Should I assume that a labour-backed currency would work with single-use banknotes, so that each labour hour can only be redeemed once? If you are familiar with Richard Wolff's work, is it like labour credits that you can "use up" or do these notes remain in circulation? If they remain in circulation, would that not cause inflation, since you would presumably need to print more banknotes to match each hour of labour?

Ok I read about it again. When Hitler did the infrastructure projects he issued the MEFO bills (Labour Treasury Certificates) which were 1:1 with Reichsmarks, they could exchange them for a reichsmark and it would be a 1 time use thing like you said. So it wasn't printing new money it was just making 1 billion reichsmarks that were dormant and getting them active in the economy again. Increasing the velocity of the currency rather than the total amount.

[–]NeoRail[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

So they didn't print any money at all? Just inject inactive money stuck at banks etc. back into circulation?

[–]MarkimusNational Socialist 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Yeah for the public works program. They could be swapped with any of the banks for reichsmarks, then the banks swapped them with the Reichsbank to get their money back and the finance ministry paid the Reichsbank back over time from taxes from the new economic activity created.

Outside of the battling unemployment public works stuff I don't know though, they probably did print new money at some point.

[–]NeoRail[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Alright. Thanks for the information.

[–]MarkimusNational Socialist 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

The Islamic banking link is now behind a paywall.

You can use this chrome (works on brave if you use that) extension to bypass paywalls

The relevant part:

How does Islamic finance work?

The overarching principle of Islamic finance is that all forms of interest are forbidden.

The Islamic financial model works on the basis of risk sharing. The customer and the bank share the risk of any investment on agreed terms, and divide any profits between them.

The main categories within Islamic finance are: Ijara, Ijara-wa-iqtina, Mudaraba, Murabaha and Musharaka.

  • Ijara is a leasing agreement whereby the bank buys an item for a customer and then leases it back over a specific period.

  • Ijara-wa-Iqtina is a similar arrangement, except that the customer is able to buy the item at the end of the contract.

  • Mudaraba offers specialist investment by a financial expert in which the bank and the customer shares any profits. Customers risks losing their money if the investment is unsuccessful, although the bank will not charge a handling fee unless it turns a profit.

  • Murabaha is a form of credit which enables customers to make a purchase without having to take out an interest bearing loan. The bank buys an item and then sells it on to the customer on a deferred basis.

  • Musharaka is a investment partnership in which profit sharing terms are agreed in advance, and losses are pegged to the amount invested.

[–]NeoRail[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I have never seen such a model before, but all of this seems pretty intuitive and common sense. It would make banking less profitable and riskier, but a lot more pro-social, in my opinion. Investment also appears more worthwhile on the whole than credit, which is probably a good thing.

Do you know if Catholics had an equivalent system too?

[–]MarkimusNational Socialist 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

They had guidelines but not an exact prescription like Sharia banking to my knowledge, obviously the Catholic anti-usury laws meant that all the banks before the jews took over banking had to operate according to the principles but I can't find an articulated specific system. When you google it you just find a bunch of articles talking about medieval banks employing similar practices to Islamic banking to make profit but not be usurious and them describing them as if they're unethical workarounds lol. I'm sure you could apply that logic to Islamic banking practices too. Seems a bit cynical, as if lending money to a business then them giving you discounts in return is the moral equivalent of enslaving a person to compound interest debt and 'repossessing' their house or something.

[–]NeoRail[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I know that there were some powerful Italian banking dynasties like the Medici and such who were Catholic, but I have no idea how they ran their businesses. The Dutch were also prominent bankers, although that might have been an exclusively post-Reformation phenomenon.