Even honest leftists are now coming to grips with the fact that feminism is a failure

submitted by casparvoneverecBig tiddy respecter from self.debatealtright

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[–]cybitch 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Men have always been pushed to make something of themselves, not just to live quiet lives, but to be an important, respected part of society. Nowadays, women also want that for ourselves, we want to do work that is considered important to society. Even if you want a family as well, having a child takes a lot more out of a woman than it does out of a man. It doesn't help that chores are still divided in an unbalanced way. The vast majority of men still expect women to be doing everything at home as well. Even when women do agree they wish to be homemakers, the salary of one person is no longer sufficient to have the sort of lifestyle most people desire. The solution of governments everywhere seems to be to import more people from somewhere else. We'll see how it works out.

[–][deleted] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Men have always been pushed to make something of themselves, not just to live quiet lives, but to be an important, respected part of society.

You're going to get mad at me for saying this but this is a good thing for women and I'd argue is almost "feminist". Males live in hierarchies and compete with each other for dominance and this gives women something to judge her potential offspring viability. I know it sounds like social darwinism (and it is) but it's just the model that homo sapiens follow.

You need to bear in mind a few things when you mention this- mating more or less follows the Pareto principle of 80:20. 80% of women will go after 20% of men where as men are not very picky. This creates HUGE amounts of men who simply lose at life. When men crash and burn, they crash and burn hard and all of this explains why men are pushed to strive for dominance more than women. It also explains incels...

Even if you want a family as well, having a child takes a lot more out of a woman than it does out of a man. It doesn't help that chores are still divided in an unbalanced way. The vast majority of men still expect women to be doing everything at home as well.

I mean, speaking as someone who is married and has four kids, this isn't necessarily the rule. And I'm not sure where you get this idea that chores are asymmetrically divided- in my household and community, men tend to do yard work, hard labor, and building/repairing. Myself and my kids can all cook too, we love doing it and this seems to be the norm; I want to squash the boomer trope of men being helpless buffoons which I think is what you are basing this off of.

That's kind of going by the wayside now. Most young men today have stiff competition with things like social media and dating apps and have to be as able as possible. Men being fat lazy Archie Bunkers is being phased out of culture because frankly, it was pathetic from the get-go and is no longer tolerable.

Nowadays, women also want that for ourselves, we want to do work that is considered important to society.

And that's fine, but why can't homemaker be the default? My wife has a psychology degree that she uses whenever she wants to work again, but for the most part she enjoys being a homemaker. Women should have the flexibility to do either but not feel obligated to work. Where you run into problems is thus:

the salary of one person is no longer sufficient to have the sort of lifestyle most people desire.

And here we are 100% in agreement. This is fucked. And it broke society.

[–]cybitch 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

And I'm not sure where you get this idea that chores are asymmetrically divided

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/02/12/us/the-household-work-men-and-women-do-and-why.html

I want to squash the boomer trope of men being helpless buffoons which I think is what you are basing this off of.

A lot of that trope is kept alive by men who pretend to suck at household chores so women won't ask them to do it again. Combine that with the complaints about "nagging" whenever women tell them to do something that's awfully difficult and unreasonable, such as suggesting they might try changing a diaper sometimes, and it's easy to see why women just accept their husbands are morons and do everything themselves. This breeds resentment and soon you'll get the stereotypical marriage where both parties hate each other.

why can't homemaker be the default?

Well, what kind of attitude did society used to have towards women, back when they were mostly homemakers? That they were important? That they had to be respected, their voices heard and their opinions taken seriously? Or was it more like "what do you say to a woman with two black eyes?" I'm sure you can finish the joke yourself. Is that what you want for your daughter, assuming your kids aren't all boys?

[–][deleted] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Is that what you want for your daughter, assuming your kids aren't all boys?

No absolutely not, and I want my daughters to marry men like me who are able bodied functional adults that put the needs of their family first. I don't have any broad disagreements with anything that you have said, but I don't think the answer is to burn down the family unit and create a daycare society with two parents working. Tbh none of the tropes that you have mentioned are true of my household at all (lol I just changed a diaper). I'm all for creating a more equal household in terms of child rearing and chores- none of those complaints are unreasonable and I like to think myself and my neighbors are all a force of change in that department. I mean part of "being a man" is just getting shit done ("I have spreadsheets to fill and sports to coach, so that fucking diaper needs to be changed").

I think you just hate shitty men. My issue is that society seems to have thrown the baby out with the bathwater.