The definition of lesbian: the googoogaga factor

submitted by Skipdip from self.Lesbians

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[–][deleted] 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (27 children)

Yeah it's the "casual attraction or engaging in physical intimacy for shits and gigs" part that lost me. I don't get OPs point so I'll just sit this one out. And I agree, exclusive attraction to women is what makes a woman a lesbian. That's just homosexuality 😁

[–]Skipdip[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (26 children)

My point is that either everyone is bisexual or something else is going on.

I don’t think this rigidity fits in with reality. And there is a lot of science to back up this fluidity idea.

Being forced to marry a man or raped does not adequately cover the nuanced psychological reasons a straight woman would choose to be with a man, or a lesbian woman would choose to be with a woman.

The whole point here is while a lesbian could (and often are) with men, it is a lukewarm situation. It is not possible for it not to be a lukewarm situation. If it isn’t, then she is bisexual.

Do you get the distinction I am making?

[–][deleted] 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

I think you're overthinking things. If you accept that it's possible for someone to sleep with people they find unattractive, then you can accept that straight people can engage in gay sex and that gay people can engage in heterosexual sex, for a variety of reasons (experimentation, internal or external homophobia, "prison gay", self harm, etc).

However, due to the fetishization of lesbians, the current trendiness of being LGBT, as well as the whole trans thing causing heterosexuals to claim homosexuality, it can be hard to accept someone's orientation at their word, especially with women, where claiming bi or homosexuality may make them seem sexier to men. So it's easy to default to using someone's sexual history to make individual judgment calls. Some lesbians take this way too far, but it's also understandable lesbians are going to be deeply suspicious of a self-proclaimed lesbian with 20 previous male partners. Do I think it's possible a lesbian has had so many male partners? Sure. Do I think it's likely? Not really, and I would be very unlikely to date or trust such an individual. Somewhere in the history of sex, it has probably happened. However, occam's razor says it's more likely that woman is just bisexual with an attachment to the lesbian identity for whatever reason.

I also think women who believe they may be lesbian, but are not currently living a "lesbian lifestyle" for lack of a better word (let's say a lesbian in the process of leaving her husband), should avoid using the lesbian label until they've been exclusively dating and sleeping with women for awhile.

[–]VioletRemi 10 insightful - 3 fun10 insightful - 2 fun11 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

Very good answer. Seconding this.

[–]Skipdip[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I agree with all this. She doesn’t say she is lesbian, she says she is a “queer” “gay” “trans man”. There was a short period pre trans where she did say she was lesbian. But now she says it “didn’t work for her”... whatever that means :/

I am not making fun of her at all. She has a really high ACE (adverse childhood experiences) score, and a hard life.

If she acts like a lesbian, and fucks you like a lesbian, she’s probably a lesbian. She keeps saying she is “into everybody” but clearly is not excited by men or their genitals.

Maybe she isn’t, and that’s her journey, but my intuition is that she is. It’s not far fetched at all for lesbians to sleep with men for the reasons you listed.

All I’m trying to say is pOLEASE, can we be nicer to other lesbians? We, especially the younger generation, are in the trenches right now. Yes we need to make sure bi women and straight women aren’t slipping in an appropriating our label. But! We should caution on the side of acceptance, of really listening to people’s stories, not rejection right now. It doesn’t take much listening to hear the googoogaga

I am so tired of having no actual lesbian space where I can talk to other confident, self-aware lesbians. The lesbian experience is often a very isolated one and it’s tragic. I’m tired of this saidit being the only space I have, having to text everything into my dinky phone. I want to talk to people, I want to see their faces. Yet because of the QT invasion there are no safe places in reality. Not even in ducking northhampton. Which is supposed to be the #1 lesbian city in the whole USA. There are no formal lesbian spaces there. What the fuck has this come to? I lived in 2 major gay areas and there was not one lesbian exclusive place for confident lesbians to hold the hands of struggling lesbians so we can heal together and come into ourselves. It sucks.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I personally like to err on the side of taking women at their word unless they give me a flagrant reason not to do so, so if someone is telling me that they're "into everybody", I would be listening to that, not looking for reasons to classify her as something else.

[–]Skipdip[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Sure if you want to do that. But given the culture that would mean that literally there are no lesbians except for me. No, that is too simple. In this day and age we have to be discerning. If you had taken me at my word I was “into everybody”.

[–]VioletRemi 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

Everyone is bisexual sounds very stupid, and very similar to political lesbians "every woman is lesbian, but forced into straight marriage", when it is just not true.

There are a lot more bisexuals than homosexuals, that is true, but homosexuals and heterosexuals aren't "fluid sexuality and just bisexuals in denial" even without society pushes. It would be really great to actually be able to be fluid or change your sexuality - it would saved me from so many problems in my life. However, it is just not possible.

My example should be a good one, I think. I was married on a man by my own choise and without any pressure outside, I wanted to become straight and to be normal like everyone. I really really tried to be aroused with him in a bed, we tried everything, but nothing worked. Even when I was wasted or with "arousal enduring pills", I would think about women or start molesting women - even when my brain is shut down. I can not make my body enjoy men, even if I really want and try everything. While being with women does not need anything, I am aroused very easily by women, just scent is enough. And I did not know anything about homosexuality back then, I did not know any homosexual people, I did not know that it is possible for two women to be together - so it is just body working on its own. Biology does not care about society and social pressure.

[–]Skipdip[S] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

I love this story, thank you for sharing. I relate to trying to be straight and thinking I could be the best straight because I was so pragmatic. I also did that creepy molesty stuff to women a bit. Sometimes a hug that lasted too long or whatever. Other times it was in my fantasies.

Biology is undeniable but it’s still so easy to miss, or interpret as something else. It’s not like lesbians are born with an L on our foreheads. That would be helpful actually.

If you read my ressponse to yousaythosethings, I tell my story more and wud appreciate ppl hearing it and seeing it I guess, because it’s still a struggle and obviously not a lot of ppl to talk about it with since me being lesbian is “transphobic” now

[–]VioletRemi 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

I also did that creepy molesty stuff to women a bit.

Well, it was only when I was completely wasted as a "maybe like that I can enjoy man", but body knew better, lol.

with since me being lesbian is “transphobic” now

Yeah, homosexuality by existing makes genderqueer theory not true, so they need to get rid of homosexuality somehow, that is why they are so homophobic. As if we exist - then whole their theory is just wrong and they are believing in bullsh*t :D

[–]Skipdip[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

I agree, it’s kind of funny in a way because all I need to do to prove them wrong is literally just show them my life haha. It’s so hard rn. I wish there was a real lesbian space where I could meet self aware lesbians face to face, or even just on zoom or something where it’s not just text all the time. Do you have a lesbian space?

[–]VioletRemi 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

True. All lesbian spaces are either banned, or infiltrated (especially in the internet). Lesbians are underground again :(

[–]Skipdip[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

:( so even you don’t have a lesbian space you go to? I’m probably projecting but I saw you in my mind as a confident established lesbian, who probably had a lesbian community somewhere.

[–]VioletRemi 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Well, I am living in small city here. And my country was pretty homophobic until recently. I am confident person, but not because other people.

[–]Skipdip[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Ok, that’s real, me too. Internal lesbian fire of confidence from overcoming homophobia and misogyny lol

[–]strictly 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (12 children)

My point is that either everyone is bisexual or something else is going on.

I don't understand why saying someone who repeatedly seeks out lukewarm sex with men is bisexual would implicate everyone is bisexual. Self-accepting lesbians don't seek out sex with men as we don't want it to begin it with.

I don’t think this rigidity fits in with reality. And there is a lot of science to back up this fluidity idea.

Bisexual women outnumber lesbians but that doesn't mean everyone is bisexual or fluid.

The whole point here is while a lesbian could (and often are) with men, it is a lukewarm situation.

I don't see how it could be a lukewarm situation for a lesbian instead of a repulsive one. If I only could have sex with the opposite sex for the rest of my life I would choose not have sex at all as no sex would be infinitely better than raping myself. I know lesbians who forced themselves to have sex with a man before accepting their sexual sexual orientation due to internalized homophobia. This was something they regret and did despite their repulsion, not some lukewarm thing they pursue when they have a dry spell.

Do you get the distinction I am making?

The distinction seem to be between bisexual women who are equally attracted to both sexes and bisexual women who prefer women. I consider neither of these groups lesbians.

[–]Skipdip[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (11 children)

You seem to be really attached to repulsion as a requirement for lesbian-ness.

Repulsion is a physiological response. I used to be repulsed by snot and poop until I had to take care of young children. I’m not repulsed by penises... I wouldn’t want to put one in my mouth. I am not excited about them. I could probably have sex with one. It would be disconnected sex, but that’s my choice. In your mind I’m not lesbian I guess 🤷‍♀️

[–]strictly 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (10 children)

Repulsion is a physiological response.

It's a way of saying unwanted sex is unwanted so you avoid it.

I used to be repulsed by snot and poop until I had to take care of young children.

I think your actions would probably reveal you are still repulsed (washing your hands after touching poop, wanting a hygienic partner etc, but I might be wrong).

I’m not repulsed by penises... I wouldn’t want to put one in my mouth.

Which one is it? You wouldn't mind it? (aka not repulsed) Or would it be a negative experience? (aka you are a bit repulsed).

I am not excited about them. I could probably have sex with one. It would be disconnected sex, but that’s my choice.

Why would you willingly choose to have sex you don't want? If you don't want the sex then there is no reason to have it. Anyway, you talk about women who pursue sex with men because they find sex with men lukewarm enough to be worthy of pursuing. So they enjoy sex with men, and pursue it because they enjoy it, they just enjoy sex with women more. That is being bisexual with a preference for women in my eyes.

[–]TalerTest 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

and my eyes

[–]Skipdip[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

I mean I see where you’re coming from. But I don’t really agree, because I know I am lesbian. ~Storytime~

I’ve never felt anything real for a man past puberty. I prefer female vocalists to male vocalists. My attention always goes to the woman in movies with a romantic subplot. I have fallen in love exclusively with women. I have innumerable crushes and attractions all on women. When I sleep with my girlfriend i feel like I could spend eternity there.

Growing up I always ran away from men who were interested in me, even though I accepted dates to the prom and such from them. I would flirt but then avoid them, even if they were objectively attractive. When I think about having sex with men it’s because I want the woman to be jealous and to see that I can do it too (because I am jealous or insecure or whatever). I always get jealous of women’s boyfriends, I’ve never felt jealous of a woman. I consciously picked Ewan MeGregor as my celebrity crush in high school because I felt I needed one too. Meanwhile I am reading a 500 page autobiography on Louise Brooks who is so dreamy, and my favorite movie was Fucking Åmål. But I was straight! I was sure I was straight I was just practical and shy. Once a girl I had seen and thought was cute in cinema club.. came up to me and told me she had a crush on me. I was repulsed and I thought about her vagina like “ew no vaginas are gross, that wasn’t a real attraction, I’m straight” and I told her sorry I was straight. I was weird enough, I was bad at fashion and no girl would ever like me. I always felt spicy and drawn to the pretty smart graceful fun straight girls, who almost always it seemed, had attractive boyfriends. Their boyfriends made me uncomfortable because I knew that I was attracted to them because I was straight. My stomach would tense up because I was attracted to them, and my heart rate would raise. I knew I was gonna start dating at some point but for some reason I just didn’t want to. But also I did want to and I wanted them to like me. Just when they did I wasn’t ready because I was so awkward.

I would imagine faceless male bodies with dicks in my fantasies, or bdsm with faceless males. When I tried to imagine women I couldn’t even picture what to do with them and I was grossed out by vaginas.

Fast forward and I had fallen in love for the first time with a woman, but she was my teacher so it couldn’t happen. Afterwards I was so broken hearted and alone for a bit, but then this hot girl who was way out of my league and mostly straight drunk kissed me because she heard I was bisexual. That was my first real kiss and it was like fireworks. She stopped it after a second and was like “hmm guess I’m not into her after all”. I spent the next year “friends” with her, watching her fuck a bunch of men, hoping dreaming someday we could be together. But in the moment once I left the bathroom at the party I went to a side room with a couch. In there was this handsome boy who had an interest in me, and I wanted someone because I was the only one in my new cool international friend group (of conventionally attractive awesome women) who didn’t have a guy I was seeing or fucking. In fact I had never had sex and I was 19. So I picked this man and he was sweet. We kissed for a while and it was fine. It was like a lone mini firework in an empty warehouse. His lips were dry which I noticed, but I was drunk so I was grateful to have the company and to be cool.

I proceeded to “date” him for half a year. He was a sweet guy. I liked him. We would get together and make out and cuddle and feel each other up, which was sort of nice I guess, but it got old and I’d kind of sit there going through the motions thinking about his chapped lips. Sometimes I really didn’t like his smell. I kept telling him we weren’t in a relationship and he’d be like “wHyYyyyy?” “Why do girls play hard to get?”. In my mind I was like oh I am not playing lol. I would 100% have had sex with him if he wasn’t waiting for marriage. I wanted to have sex with him, so I could not be a virgin and I could catch up with my friends so that Alicia would think I’m cool enough to date her. We all went to clubs and I danced with men and kissed men. One night we were all out and Alicia was dancing with this guy she was fucking, and I was with this other guy who was kind of a creepy asshole but conventionally attractive. We kissed and he teased me and I was just annoyed. Like “what are you teasing me for, I don’t care. Just kiss me”. He asked me in an annoying way to come to his hotel with him, and I was like “no” and I left to go to the bathroom. Then I left the club and walked away starting to cry. One of my friends came out and I said “I think I’m lesbian” she was like “oh, it’s ok you don’t have to be with men”. After that night I went back to thinking I was bisexual, because I must be wrong, of course I could be attracted to men. I was really mostly straight, I just focused on women because it was easier and safer. I was probably not as into men as I was women, because of trauma.

[–][deleted] 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Oh my god, just stop. This is the definition of an overshare and disrespectful. No one wants to come to a lesbian forum to hear about your dick fantasies.

[–]Skipdip[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Don’t read it if you don’t want to. I really don’t care if you feel it’s an over share. I am lesbian. I have no interest or attraction towards men. How you do not see that is beyond me.

[–][deleted] 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Oh trust me, I only skimmed it and I won't be doing more than that. And in it you're constantly talking about dicks and men, even when you're talking about sleeping with a girl.

Why on earth do you think we would want to read a detailed description of you having sex with a man? Like I'm famous for being "the bi-het defender", but this just sickens me.

[–]Skipdip[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

You know what; I honestly totally respect that. If you don’t want to read about dicks, that is your right and boundary. I get why you wouldn’t. I have always been around straight people (or male gays) and innundated with straight culture and expectations. Lesbian was not remotely an option for me in my mind, I was just “practical” or asexual. Not only that but I grew up in the virulent misogny of male nerd culture. I internalized a rediculous amount of stuff that I am still working out. Its hard and confusing for me as well, but I assure myself: If I was bi, I would know by now. I’ve never had an attraction to a man.

[–]Skipdip[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Several years later I was drunk and a nice man asked me to kiss and I was like “eh sure whatever, add another one to my list so I will be cooler.” Eventually he kept asking me to do more thing until we were in his room gonna have sex. I was decently drunk and ashamed of my body. His dick was on the smaller side and uncut. I was like ok cool what do I do? I started jerking him off but he didn’t like what I was doing so he took over. Then he was like “do you want to have sex?” and I’m like “well we’re here now so might as well get it over with”. He put it in and I was like “ok I can sort of feel it, it’s like a vaguely uncomfortable poking, cool look at me I’m doing it. I’m cool now, love me please Lily“. He had some issue so he took it out and I was like “aw damn does this even count? We barely had sex at all.” Then we went to the shower and did something else I don’t really remember. I kind of thought he was gay. He was definitely at least bisexual. He kept wanting to do anal stuff on him and me. I was like “sure on you, why not” but he couldn’t find his plug. He jerked himself off and came and was like “sorry there’s not a lot left, I masturbated a lot today” I was in my head like “oh that’s perfectly alright, you can go ahead and handle that situation yourself you really seem to know what you’re doing”. Eventually we stopped and went our separate ways, like “let’s do this again sometime” “yeah for sure”.

All this time I was repulsed by vaginas. Vaginal liquid was the most disgusting in my head, more disgusting than semen, because penises were normal and cleaner. When I masturbated I never touched my vagina. It freaked me out to touch it. They were just so weird and smelly and gross. I could never picture wanting to touch a woman’s vagina so I knew I couldn’t be lesbian. I couldn’t fantasize about being with a woman, so I would imagine women in bdsm sub situations with faceless males.

I had had a few random drunken one night stands with a couple of women I met at parties. The women were attractive, and I kind of had fun with the first one when we were kissing, but I felt nothing and when I ate them out I was like “ewwww” in my mind. One time I slobbered all over her vagina to keep from tasting her fluids 🙂 if something’s coming out, it can’t go in 🙌🏻.

This whole time I was pining for the love of my life who was this teacher I’d had. I just had to have more sex to catch up to her and then she’d love me. After my first time ever with the first woman ends in a complete dud, she rolls over and says “are you even lesbian?”. I was like “OOF.. what if I’m not attracted to women? What if I am straight?”

I flirtated with a trans woman who was in our little lesbian party group. He was attracted to me and I thought he was a really sweet guy, with a lot of pain. Plus it was edgy and progressive to be with a trans woman to validate him. We made out and it was just the same as every other mediocre male kiss id had. I had no interest in sex with him and drifted away to have other unfilling encounters with women.

When I met my first girlfriend I was like “holy shit she is so beautiful”. Every cell in my body was drawn to her. I didn’t know what I wanted to do since I was repulsed by vaginas, but I knew I wanted to touch her. After months of doubt if she liked me or liked women, and going on a bunch of long walks together trying to figure out if she was into me. Finally I told her I liked her. She said she liked me too. It was another several weeks of pained early-stage covid social distancing, and some contention because my best friend was her best friend, and this friend did not want us together. Despite the forces saying otherwise, we tried every date to push closer and closer, touch more and more.

Finally, one night we were laying next to each other outside in her backyard before a fire because it was cold but we agreed to only hang out outdoors. I reached out to touch her, and she touched me back. We touched more and more until finally my hand went down between her legs. Her vagina was kind of gross and wet. I didn’t know what to do, but she was really experienced and whatever happened she found a way to like it. I was uncomfortable throughout and after, I wiped my hands off on the grass to get the nasty liquid off. She tried to do the same to me but I didn’t really feel anything so we stopped. I was hooked. We started having sex multiple times every time we saw each other. When I finally started to make her come I ascended to the seventh heaven. I never knew I could be so blessed and honored to experience this. It was the hottest most amazing thing I could imagine, and it was all for me to soak up. There didn’t have to be any man, she didn’t need any man there except for just me. There were no men watching behind cameras like in lesbian porn or lesbian movies. No boyfriend or crush. Just me and her, and her doing this all for me without any man around.

Eventually I finally got over literally any remaining disgust about her vagina or her fluids. I was wild about it all. I wanted to do every sex thing in existence with her and I couldn’t imagine ever getting tired of it.

Could I have sex with a man? Yes, I’ve done it before. I don’t see why I couldn’t do it and maybe even make myself come from it. Do I want to do it? On some level kind of. I have a lot of curiousity about it at this point since it’s been built up so much in my mind. Plus I have a lot of anxiety that maybe I do like men, so just to quell my anxieties and get confirmation.. Could I enjoy it? I feel like I could probably figure out a way, and maybe my discomfort around men is some type of attraction after all. Even if it’s not, it would be like two bro’s masturbating together, which could be fine I imagine. I do greatly admire men sometimes, sometimes I love them, and I notice if they look attractive. Maybe these feeling are attraction, after all. Maybe I could be in a straight situation. Men are easy to sleep with they are desperate for you. Definitely not long term. But who knows? I had my vibrator for two years. Most of all, maybe if I did Sarah would think I’m sexy and desirable because men want me too 😎

So I guess I must be bisexual. Either I am bisexual or mentally ill I guess. Well, actually I already know I’m mentally ill with attachment problems. It’s probably my mental illness and my trauma around men that is making me indifferent about men even though I’m bisexual. I couldn’t be a homosexual with some low level fluidity within the category, could i? I’m not a real lesbian, I dont belong in the lesbian community.

[–]Hydiee 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

There's absolutely nothing wrong with being bisexual. Just accept that you're bisexual and it will make things easier for you. Lesbians don't have sex with men for "shits and gigs" So can we not perpetuate the myth that lesbians will want to sleep with men if we are "bored in quarantine" (anyone remember that?) or drunk.

[–]Skipdip[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

If I was bisexual then fine, but I’m not. I really don’t care about men. And the more I heal the less real estate they take up in my mind. If you actually read the whole novel, which I doubt because it was long and you responded quickly, you would see what I meant by “shits and gigs”. I don’t actually desire men when I am physically around them. And I feel nothing toward them, I never have and I can’t imagine ever doing so. But fine if you want it so bad I’m fucking bisexual I guess I should leave.

[–]peaked2020 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

This sounds incredibly bisexual... and as others said way TMI. No wonder you are so confused and feeling the need to write so many paragraphs. Its not the fact that you are not a “gold star”, it’s the way you describe things, what you focus on, the way your attraction goes. There is nothing wrong with being bisexual and having your attractions to both sexes fluctuate over time.