The definition of lesbian: the googoogaga factor

submitted by Skipdip from self.Lesbians

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[–]peaked2020 23 insightful - 4 fun23 insightful - 3 fun24 insightful - 4 fun -  (4 children)

What a ridiculous question...

Almost no one really thinks that everyone must be “gold star”... from what I have seen, people generally twist this into “gold star gatekeeping” when what is really being discouraged is bisexual women pretending to be lesbians. Everyone knows that there is a difference between say, a woman from a poor community in India marrying a man to phrase her parents and a woman in NYC sleeping with boys for her enjoyment. Or god forbid, a rape... almost no one thinks these things mean that you are attracted to men. This is purposely twisted and made to be “so confusing” by women who are intentionally misusing the lesbian label and trying to claim that it is too unreasonable of a concept to not be interested in men. That fluidity is necessary because how could anyone not want a man? They think this way because they are bisexual, and homophobic at that...

Being a bisexual woman who wants to marry a man does not make you straight. Being a bisexual woman who wants to marry a woman does not make you a lesbian. Particularly if you are sleeping with men as well, dating them, if you are attracted to men... you will never in your life know what it is like to be a gay woman. This “sleeping with men for shits and gigs” you talk about is called bisexuality or heterosexuality. If they are enjoying men they are not lesbians.

And they know this as well. This is not about them being confused, this is about them seeking to use the lesbian label under false pretenses. If you could not spread that narrative here under the idea that being a lesbian is so complicated and confusing, and oh sexuality fluidity this and that, when it truly is not... that would be great. This bizarre line of thinking has led to us being flooded with bi lesbians and other nonsense.

[–][deleted] 5 insightful - 5 fun5 insightful - 4 fun6 insightful - 5 fun -  (3 children)

LOL! You find a way to bring up lying bisexuals and gold stars at every opportunity. I don't even understand what you're trying to say in the context of this post. It's not that I disagree with you, I just think your comment is a little off topic.

[–]peaked2020 16 insightful - 1 fun16 insightful - 0 fun17 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

The context of the post is debating whether women who only want to marry women, but still enjoy men, are lesbians... as well as whether lesbians can be “sexually fluid”. Whether lesbians can sleep with men for “shits and gigs”. They are not. Lesbians don’t like men. That’s the relation... that is what the post is about.

[–][deleted] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

ok you threw me for a moment

[–]peaked2020 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Yes, I noticed by your comment below that you seem to have not understood the original post. The entire question this writer is bringing is about how fluid lesbians can be, raising a debate about whether women who like men, but prefer women, are lesbians. That is the person’s entire point in posting.

[–]FrostyNugs 19 insightful - 1 fun19 insightful - 0 fun20 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

Being bi with a preference doesn't make someone lesbian 💀 this is the same shit I've heard from the "lesbians" with boyfriends lmao.

[–]Skipdip[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

True. And that is not what I’m talking about. If you want to actually know look at some of my replies

[–]FrostyNugs 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

"Many lesbians are pressured into sleeping with men" might have better conveyed what you were going for, then

[–]Skipdip[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Yeah, but it’s so subconscious that most of the time they wouldn’t even realize they were being pressured. That’s what I was trying to get at.

[–]peaked2020 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

If they’re unaware, sure... teenagers especially can be pressured when they don’t know who they are and don’t understand their sexual feelings, or worry about their parents reactions. These types of people will not even themselves realize they are lesbians or will maybe know but try to get rid of it, hiding it or attending conversion therapy. It is very different when someone is an out and proud “lesbian” and sleeps with men, then whisking it away with some excuse about how society made them have sex with the men in their office, and fluidity made them get a boyfriend... which we see very often in the LGBT community.

[–]Skipdip[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

You really have to take it case by case. I’ve never met a person who did this. Sounds absurd because how can they not be aware that they go gaga for men

[–][deleted] 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (32 children)

yes, sexuality is fluid. Sexual orientation is not fluid.

what does that mean? what's the difference? Isn't fluidity only for bisexuals?

[–]yousaythosethings 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (30 children)

IMO sexual orientation is just one aspect of sexuality. It’s the baseline of what sex partner you’re attracted to. Sexuality is everything to do with your sexual feelings and behavior, how you express it, and what you’re into. So I think that kind of stuff can be fluid but I think at least for the vast majority of people, sexual orientation is set by puberty.

[–][deleted] 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (29 children)

Ah that makes sense. But now I understand this post even less. OP says fluidity in sexuality can look like:

casual attraction or engaging in physical intimacy for shits and gigs. Some people do this exclusively! Often because of attachment trauma.

But if she's saying that sexual orientation is fixed, then why would she also say that homosexuals might voluntarily engage in sexual activity with the opposite sex?

[–]yousaythosethings 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (28 children)

Oh to be clear I do not at all agree with the OP’s working theory. I don’t think homosexual women are capable of having casual sexual dalliances with men for funsies as long as they want to partner with women. I just posted my own take in here as an LBL and explained what I think made me a lesbian despite having a history of one male partner.

[–][deleted] 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (27 children)

Yeah it's the "casual attraction or engaging in physical intimacy for shits and gigs" part that lost me. I don't get OPs point so I'll just sit this one out. And I agree, exclusive attraction to women is what makes a woman a lesbian. That's just homosexuality 😁

[–]Skipdip[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (26 children)

My point is that either everyone is bisexual or something else is going on.

I don’t think this rigidity fits in with reality. And there is a lot of science to back up this fluidity idea.

Being forced to marry a man or raped does not adequately cover the nuanced psychological reasons a straight woman would choose to be with a man, or a lesbian woman would choose to be with a woman.

The whole point here is while a lesbian could (and often are) with men, it is a lukewarm situation. It is not possible for it not to be a lukewarm situation. If it isn’t, then she is bisexual.

Do you get the distinction I am making?

[–][deleted] 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

I think you're overthinking things. If you accept that it's possible for someone to sleep with people they find unattractive, then you can accept that straight people can engage in gay sex and that gay people can engage in heterosexual sex, for a variety of reasons (experimentation, internal or external homophobia, "prison gay", self harm, etc).

However, due to the fetishization of lesbians, the current trendiness of being LGBT, as well as the whole trans thing causing heterosexuals to claim homosexuality, it can be hard to accept someone's orientation at their word, especially with women, where claiming bi or homosexuality may make them seem sexier to men. So it's easy to default to using someone's sexual history to make individual judgment calls. Some lesbians take this way too far, but it's also understandable lesbians are going to be deeply suspicious of a self-proclaimed lesbian with 20 previous male partners. Do I think it's possible a lesbian has had so many male partners? Sure. Do I think it's likely? Not really, and I would be very unlikely to date or trust such an individual. Somewhere in the history of sex, it has probably happened. However, occam's razor says it's more likely that woman is just bisexual with an attachment to the lesbian identity for whatever reason.

I also think women who believe they may be lesbian, but are not currently living a "lesbian lifestyle" for lack of a better word (let's say a lesbian in the process of leaving her husband), should avoid using the lesbian label until they've been exclusively dating and sleeping with women for awhile.

[–]VioletRemi 10 insightful - 3 fun10 insightful - 2 fun11 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

Very good answer. Seconding this.

[–]Skipdip[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I agree with all this. She doesn’t say she is lesbian, she says she is a “queer” “gay” “trans man”. There was a short period pre trans where she did say she was lesbian. But now she says it “didn’t work for her”... whatever that means :/

I am not making fun of her at all. She has a really high ACE (adverse childhood experiences) score, and a hard life.

If she acts like a lesbian, and fucks you like a lesbian, she’s probably a lesbian. She keeps saying she is “into everybody” but clearly is not excited by men or their genitals.

Maybe she isn’t, and that’s her journey, but my intuition is that she is. It’s not far fetched at all for lesbians to sleep with men for the reasons you listed.

All I’m trying to say is pOLEASE, can we be nicer to other lesbians? We, especially the younger generation, are in the trenches right now. Yes we need to make sure bi women and straight women aren’t slipping in an appropriating our label. But! We should caution on the side of acceptance, of really listening to people’s stories, not rejection right now. It doesn’t take much listening to hear the googoogaga

I am so tired of having no actual lesbian space where I can talk to other confident, self-aware lesbians. The lesbian experience is often a very isolated one and it’s tragic. I’m tired of this saidit being the only space I have, having to text everything into my dinky phone. I want to talk to people, I want to see their faces. Yet because of the QT invasion there are no safe places in reality. Not even in ducking northhampton. Which is supposed to be the #1 lesbian city in the whole USA. There are no formal lesbian spaces there. What the fuck has this come to? I lived in 2 major gay areas and there was not one lesbian exclusive place for confident lesbians to hold the hands of struggling lesbians so we can heal together and come into ourselves. It sucks.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I personally like to err on the side of taking women at their word unless they give me a flagrant reason not to do so, so if someone is telling me that they're "into everybody", I would be listening to that, not looking for reasons to classify her as something else.

[–]Skipdip[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Sure if you want to do that. But given the culture that would mean that literally there are no lesbians except for me. No, that is too simple. In this day and age we have to be discerning. If you had taken me at my word I was “into everybody”.

[–]VioletRemi 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

Everyone is bisexual sounds very stupid, and very similar to political lesbians "every woman is lesbian, but forced into straight marriage", when it is just not true.

There are a lot more bisexuals than homosexuals, that is true, but homosexuals and heterosexuals aren't "fluid sexuality and just bisexuals in denial" even without society pushes. It would be really great to actually be able to be fluid or change your sexuality - it would saved me from so many problems in my life. However, it is just not possible.

My example should be a good one, I think. I was married on a man by my own choise and without any pressure outside, I wanted to become straight and to be normal like everyone. I really really tried to be aroused with him in a bed, we tried everything, but nothing worked. Even when I was wasted or with "arousal enduring pills", I would think about women or start molesting women - even when my brain is shut down. I can not make my body enjoy men, even if I really want and try everything. While being with women does not need anything, I am aroused very easily by women, just scent is enough. And I did not know anything about homosexuality back then, I did not know any homosexual people, I did not know that it is possible for two women to be together - so it is just body working on its own. Biology does not care about society and social pressure.

[–]Skipdip[S] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

I love this story, thank you for sharing. I relate to trying to be straight and thinking I could be the best straight because I was so pragmatic. I also did that creepy molesty stuff to women a bit. Sometimes a hug that lasted too long or whatever. Other times it was in my fantasies.

Biology is undeniable but it’s still so easy to miss, or interpret as something else. It’s not like lesbians are born with an L on our foreheads. That would be helpful actually.

If you read my ressponse to yousaythosethings, I tell my story more and wud appreciate ppl hearing it and seeing it I guess, because it’s still a struggle and obviously not a lot of ppl to talk about it with since me being lesbian is “transphobic” now

[–]VioletRemi 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

I also did that creepy molesty stuff to women a bit.

Well, it was only when I was completely wasted as a "maybe like that I can enjoy man", but body knew better, lol.

with since me being lesbian is “transphobic” now

Yeah, homosexuality by existing makes genderqueer theory not true, so they need to get rid of homosexuality somehow, that is why they are so homophobic. As if we exist - then whole their theory is just wrong and they are believing in bullsh*t :D

[–]Skipdip[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

I agree, it’s kind of funny in a way because all I need to do to prove them wrong is literally just show them my life haha. It’s so hard rn. I wish there was a real lesbian space where I could meet self aware lesbians face to face, or even just on zoom or something where it’s not just text all the time. Do you have a lesbian space?

[–]strictly 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (12 children)

My point is that either everyone is bisexual or something else is going on.

I don't understand why saying someone who repeatedly seeks out lukewarm sex with men is bisexual would implicate everyone is bisexual. Self-accepting lesbians don't seek out sex with men as we don't want it to begin it with.

I don’t think this rigidity fits in with reality. And there is a lot of science to back up this fluidity idea.

Bisexual women outnumber lesbians but that doesn't mean everyone is bisexual or fluid.

The whole point here is while a lesbian could (and often are) with men, it is a lukewarm situation.

I don't see how it could be a lukewarm situation for a lesbian instead of a repulsive one. If I only could have sex with the opposite sex for the rest of my life I would choose not have sex at all as no sex would be infinitely better than raping myself. I know lesbians who forced themselves to have sex with a man before accepting their sexual sexual orientation due to internalized homophobia. This was something they regret and did despite their repulsion, not some lukewarm thing they pursue when they have a dry spell.

Do you get the distinction I am making?

The distinction seem to be between bisexual women who are equally attracted to both sexes and bisexual women who prefer women. I consider neither of these groups lesbians.

[–]Skipdip[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (11 children)

You seem to be really attached to repulsion as a requirement for lesbian-ness.

Repulsion is a physiological response. I used to be repulsed by snot and poop until I had to take care of young children. I’m not repulsed by penises... I wouldn’t want to put one in my mouth. I am not excited about them. I could probably have sex with one. It would be disconnected sex, but that’s my choice. In your mind I’m not lesbian I guess 🤷‍♀️

[–]strictly 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (10 children)

Repulsion is a physiological response.

It's a way of saying unwanted sex is unwanted so you avoid it.

I used to be repulsed by snot and poop until I had to take care of young children.

I think your actions would probably reveal you are still repulsed (washing your hands after touching poop, wanting a hygienic partner etc, but I might be wrong).

I’m not repulsed by penises... I wouldn’t want to put one in my mouth.

Which one is it? You wouldn't mind it? (aka not repulsed) Or would it be a negative experience? (aka you are a bit repulsed).

I am not excited about them. I could probably have sex with one. It would be disconnected sex, but that’s my choice.

Why would you willingly choose to have sex you don't want? If you don't want the sex then there is no reason to have it. Anyway, you talk about women who pursue sex with men because they find sex with men lukewarm enough to be worthy of pursuing. So they enjoy sex with men, and pursue it because they enjoy it, they just enjoy sex with women more. That is being bisexual with a preference for women in my eyes.

[–]TalerTest 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

and my eyes

[–]Skipdip[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

I mean I see where you’re coming from. But I don’t really agree, because I know I am lesbian. ~Storytime~

I’ve never felt anything real for a man past puberty. I prefer female vocalists to male vocalists. My attention always goes to the woman in movies with a romantic subplot. I have fallen in love exclusively with women. I have innumerable crushes and attractions all on women. When I sleep with my girlfriend i feel like I could spend eternity there.

Growing up I always ran away from men who were interested in me, even though I accepted dates to the prom and such from them. I would flirt but then avoid them, even if they were objectively attractive. When I think about having sex with men it’s because I want the woman to be jealous and to see that I can do it too (because I am jealous or insecure or whatever). I always get jealous of women’s boyfriends, I’ve never felt jealous of a woman. I consciously picked Ewan MeGregor as my celebrity crush in high school because I felt I needed one too. Meanwhile I am reading a 500 page autobiography on Louise Brooks who is so dreamy, and my favorite movie was Fucking Åmål. But I was straight! I was sure I was straight I was just practical and shy. Once a girl I had seen and thought was cute in cinema club.. came up to me and told me she had a crush on me. I was repulsed and I thought about her vagina like “ew no vaginas are gross, that wasn’t a real attraction, I’m straight” and I told her sorry I was straight. I was weird enough, I was bad at fashion and no girl would ever like me. I always felt spicy and drawn to the pretty smart graceful fun straight girls, who almost always it seemed, had attractive boyfriends. Their boyfriends made me uncomfortable because I knew that I was attracted to them because I was straight. My stomach would tense up because I was attracted to them, and my heart rate would raise. I knew I was gonna start dating at some point but for some reason I just didn’t want to. But also I did want to and I wanted them to like me. Just when they did I wasn’t ready because I was so awkward.

I would imagine faceless male bodies with dicks in my fantasies, or bdsm with faceless males. When I tried to imagine women I couldn’t even picture what to do with them and I was grossed out by vaginas.

Fast forward and I had fallen in love for the first time with a woman, but she was my teacher so it couldn’t happen. Afterwards I was so broken hearted and alone for a bit, but then this hot girl who was way out of my league and mostly straight drunk kissed me because she heard I was bisexual. That was my first real kiss and it was like fireworks. She stopped it after a second and was like “hmm guess I’m not into her after all”. I spent the next year “friends” with her, watching her fuck a bunch of men, hoping dreaming someday we could be together. But in the moment once I left the bathroom at the party I went to a side room with a couch. In there was this handsome boy who had an interest in me, and I wanted someone because I was the only one in my new cool international friend group (of conventionally attractive awesome women) who didn’t have a guy I was seeing or fucking. In fact I had never had sex and I was 19. So I picked this man and he was sweet. We kissed for a while and it was fine. It was like a lone mini firework in an empty warehouse. His lips were dry which I noticed, but I was drunk so I was grateful to have the company and to be cool.

I proceeded to “date” him for half a year. He was a sweet guy. I liked him. We would get together and make out and cuddle and feel each other up, which was sort of nice I guess, but it got old and I’d kind of sit there going through the motions thinking about his chapped lips. Sometimes I really didn’t like his smell. I kept telling him we weren’t in a relationship and he’d be like “wHyYyyyy?” “Why do girls play hard to get?”. In my mind I was like oh I am not playing lol. I would 100% have had sex with him if he wasn’t waiting for marriage. I wanted to have sex with him, so I could not be a virgin and I could catch up with my friends so that Alicia would think I’m cool enough to date her. We all went to clubs and I danced with men and kissed men. One night we were all out and Alicia was dancing with this guy she was fucking, and I was with this other guy who was kind of a creepy asshole but conventionally attractive. We kissed and he teased me and I was just annoyed. Like “what are you teasing me for, I don’t care. Just kiss me”. He asked me in an annoying way to come to his hotel with him, and I was like “no” and I left to go to the bathroom. Then I left the club and walked away starting to cry. One of my friends came out and I said “I think I’m lesbian” she was like “oh, it’s ok you don’t have to be with men”. After that night I went back to thinking I was bisexual, because I must be wrong, of course I could be attracted to men. I was really mostly straight, I just focused on women because it was easier and safer. I was probably not as into men as I was women, because of trauma.

[–]Skipdip[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I am defining fluidity to mean action. Yes, it is possible for a lesbian to sleep with men. There is your fluidity. Some may seek it out for various psychological and circumstantial reasons. Often this is due to developmental trauma or cultural pressures. But maybe it’s just curiosity or desire for new sexual experiences.

What makes that person not bisexual? There is no googoogaga, it’s a mechanical exercise. Maybe it’s a mechanical exercise with affection and admiration. Like friends shaking hands. But it is lukewarm and will never be anything but.

[–]yousaythosethings 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

I don’t really agree with the premise. I think there’s a big difference between lesbians and FebFems even though both only partner with women.

My story is in my post history so I refer people there, but I’m a late bloomer lesbian. I had one sexual partner to whom I was married. I was in that relationship voluntarily. But I haven’t gotten pushback on the idea that I’m a lesbian and that’s because I’ve only ever been attracted to women. That’s just what being a lesbian comes down to. It’s a pattern of who you have had sexual/romantic feelings for, at least since puberty. If you’re a woman and it’s all women, then you’re a lesbian. If it’s a mix of men and women, you’re bisexual, if it’s only men, you’re straight.

Again, I’ve talked about this in my post history, which has more detail, but though I dated and married one guy, the devil is in the details. I started realizing I had feelings for girls when I was 12, didn’t know any gay people, and experienced social and emotional isolation and trauma due to growing up in an abusive environment that kept me in a fog and depressed. I’d have moments of clarity but I would push them away away because I valued independence and didn’t want to deal with another thing that would make my life more difficult. I never experienced attraction to men. I did replace my need for my sexual desire to be fulfilled with a need to be desired/wanted. I had a very poor mind-body connection. As I worked on my shit, everything became more clear and I became in touch with myself. I disnt previously allow myself to try to figure out my sexual orientation. It was a very charged issue. And when I finally did and allowed myself to think about the patterns I experienced, it was immediately clear that it always has just been women for me. I will also add that other than my husband, who was my best friend and who I am still close to as a friend, I had been on 4 total dates with men in my life, none set up by me, and 2 that I only went on because they were double dates set up by my female friend who I actually liked. And other than my husband, I have never kissed a man sober. I’ve only done so while heavily intoxicated and no situated was initiated by me. And additionally it’s not only my sexual orientation that this history made me confused and in the fog about.

So to my knowledge, no one has defined me as not a lesbian because of that relationship but people define me based on my pattern of sexual attraction which is to women only.

[–]Skipdip[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Yes! This is a beautiful story and exactly what I’m talking about. I will read the rest but this is what I’m getting at, so I don’t understand how you disagree with my premise.

You were with men and all it could ever be was lukewarm and mechanical. Maybe you were able to come with them, but in a disconnected mechanical way. I too have dealt with attachment trauma which briefly confused me and in fact continues to confuse me. I feel anxiety and have obsessive thoughts questioning if I am attracted to this man or that man. My sympathetic nervous system kicks in around men sometimes and I hyper analyze if that is attraction. Well, I don’t have to ask that at all when it comes to women. There is no question, I literally melt and explode like a million fireworks.

Could I go have disconnected sex with random men to feel wanted and desired? Yes. Could I probably find a way to make myself come from that? Probably.

In my friend group there is so much pressure to be essentially “pansexual” or “fluid”, that friends of mine who I am pretty sure are lesbians are going around sleeping with men. Then they come back and say “yeah... it was fine, but he is just such a boy”. These friends have a tendency to go for trans women because they think “I’m attracted to women so I should be attracted to trans women right?”. “I like all genitals.. it’s about the person” but then when they have sex with vaginas they’re like “oh, right, I like this way better”. Or “I get bored quickly of penises, I never get bored of vagina” or “for some reason I don’t feel shame after I come having sex with vaginas.” It’s pointless.

That’s why I’m trying to turn the focus instead of who we COULD have sex with, to who we actually melt and explode for. That what sexual orientation actually is. We need this distinction because people are confused as hell.

And yeah, in this day and age the majority of people have attachment trauma and developments trauma in general. It’s sad. I am going into the field to help heal people of this. But it’s the truth.

[–]carrotcake 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Ok. I understood your point now. But women that feel pressured to sleep with men because it's cool to be pansexual and fluid are still being PRESSURED to sleep with men. Whether it's old day homophobia or cool homophobia, they aren't doing it for fun or because they are fluid. They're doing it because they feel like it's what they are supposed to do.

Edit: but your friends could just be bi that lean towards women as well.

[–]Skipdip[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Yes, it is a type of internal pressure. They don’t even recognize it as homophobia because they see it as the most transcendent progressive way of all. I would also say that because of the cultural pressures they haven’t fully figured out that they are lesbian (or straight) in the first place. Any glimpse of anything that could be construed as attraction is grounds for “oh I must not be lesbian I guess I like men and should date them too”

And no, what bi means is googoogaga for both. All this percentage bs really doesn’t mean anything. You are not bisexual unless you could get fireworks either way. I have one friend who I think is bisexual because she is crazy about this trans woman. She is my only friend who calls herself a lesbian, ironically. My other two friends I really think are lesbian. One, who has been with like 20 random men and a few relationships with men, has told me point blank she has a “genital preference” for vagina. She happens to have a high level of dysregulation and a really high ACE score.

At the end of the day, I would love them even if they were straight, so it’s not just that I’m trying to build the lesbian ranks. But with all this TQ confusión going on it takes a discerning person to really figure out what we are looking at and who we are dealing with.

[–]yousaythosethings 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I don’t agree with your characterization of my experiences though.

Beyond that fluidity is real, that is casual attraction or engaging in physical intimacy for shits and gigs.

This is what I was responding to and what I disagree with. I think if a woman is proactively seeking out physical intimacy with men for casual fun that’s totally different and inconsistent with being a lesbian. I do recognize that you can have sex with someone you’re not arrested to. I also realize that some gay people have a much stronger negative attraction to the opposite sex than others. I’m closer to neutral than totally repulsed. Some gay men are just meh on breasts and other gay men are revolted. Same for lesbians in reverse.

I didn’t seek out casual physical intimacy with a man for fun. Some men tried to kiss me when I was heavily intoxicated. Some men asked me on a date or my friends pressured me fo go on dates but I didn’t initiate any of it. Nor would I ever want to. I had a relationship/relations with only one. And initiating physical intimacy did require heavy intoxication at first and yes a lot of dissociation later.

But you really don’t need to say “googoogaagaa” because sexual attraction vs lack of attraction and then also sexual repulsion vs lack of sexual repulsion sums it up.

I am sexually attracted to women. I lack sexual attraction to men, but I lack a lot of the sexual repulsion to men that many other lesbians have. There’s repulsion but I know it’s not on the level of others’ experiences.

[–]Skipdip[S] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Ok well looks like I choose the wrong words. Let’s forget them then, I think you know what I am talking about.

A main point I have, and the reason I keep saying googoogaga instead of “attraction” is because attraction can always be a question, “was that attraction? Am I attracted?” but googoogaga is undeniable and uncontrollable.

I am also neutral on male stuff. I am put off by sperm though, or any other liquids that come from a penis 😬

But then again, back when my attachment trauma and internalized misogyny was really bad I was afraid of vaginas. I couldn’t even touch my own. And I did not enjoy licking those of the women I was having random one night stands with. It took me healing a certain amount of my stuff, coming to terms with my internalized homophobia and misogyny, and being in a relationship with a woman I loved, to discover that I am crazy about vaginas. Bringing a woman I love to orgasm is one of the holiest most incredible things I could ever be blessed to experience. NowI can’t imagine ever being satisfied with a penis. It does seem boring, and I have no interest in getting it off. It would just be about what the penis could do for me.

That being as it is, why am I still so fucking hung up on whether I might secretly be bisexual!? It is an obsession, but it comes from the myriad cultural pressures. Including my homosexual brainwashed friends who are so deep in the QT head-scramble that they can’t see their own noses. And it’s not just them, it’s the entire culture right now. My ducking LGB friends straight up saying that homosexuality doesn’t really exist because “it’s fluid” and “everyone is a little queer”. And the mainstream culture colluding with this.

[–]Skipdip[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

I also don’t know what a FebFem is

[–]VioletRemi 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

FebFem is bisexual who is leaning towards women and will prefer women over men, but still can sleep with men and can be aroused by men, just decides not to.

[–]yousaythosethings 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Female-Exclusive Bisexual Female aka a bi woman who only dates/partners with women.

[–]Skipdip[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Ok yeah, I looked it up myself.

[–]Seahorse 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (14 children)

Interesting take OP.

Anything involving fluidity and sex will get the pitch forks out however because that's what the queer crowd wants to indoctrinate gays with.

Hopefully this debate will fade as bisexual women try and cultivate their own culture and stop masquerading as lesbians.

[–]Skipdip[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (13 children)

Yes I agree. I don’t like how this push back to the queer homophobia has resulted in needless infighting. Not everyone has fluidity, but some people do. Some straight people do and some lesbian/gay people do. I am defining fluidity as the ability to perform the mechanical action of intimacy, which is how I’m differentiating it from bisexual. To me a bisexual can go either way and be happy. I could never be happy with a man. I could never be sexually satisfied with a man. I would never choose to be in a relationship with a man, unless it was with a gay man to hide my real relationship. It hurts to be rejected from the paltry remains of the lesbian community. I really do think I am lesbian 🤷‍♀️ but I have ocd and this preoccupation with if I’m attracted to men is not the only intrusive thoughts I get.

I think bisexual women should cultivate their own culture. Because I agree it is needed. But I have met true bisexuals and I don’t relate to them. I lose interest when the topic goes to men.

[–]TalerTest 9 insightful - 5 fun9 insightful - 4 fun10 insightful - 5 fun -  (1 child)

But I have met true bisexuals and I don’t relate to them. I lose interest when the topic goes to men.

Girl, you literally just wrote a monologue that was 80% men. I think you will fit in just fine with bisexual women.

[–]Skipdip[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Look, whatever. Their difference from me is that they like men. I just have men-related anxiety.

[–]Seahorse 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (10 children)

Yeah I think a lot of this is lesbians from privileged backgrounds or ones that have an inability to understand that not everyone in life is dealt the same hand.

I was too busy doing sport in highschool to be "interested" in boys so I had a nice little cover. So I never needed to fake being straight or have anything to do with men but I have lots of lesbian friends that did. They are not any less lesbian than me because they had to go a different route to me.

What you are describing to me is compulsive heterosexuality, I have seen some sheltered posters on here not believe it's a thing.

But it very much is, outside the cosy realms of western society (and sometimes still in it!) there are still places where one can be raped, beaten and indeed murdered for being lesbian.

[–]Hydiee 9 insightful - 4 fun9 insightful - 3 fun10 insightful - 4 fun -  (8 children)

Sounds more like compulsive HOMOsexuality to me. Trying to force herself to like vaginas, calls them "more disgusting" than penises and semen. I mean...?

[–]Seahorse 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

I thought that was in the context of puberty? I was a homophobic little shit during puberty, certainly wouldn't want people holding that against me.

It doesn't have to apply solely to this person, but she has a good point on how some lesbians are treated.

[–]Hydiee 7 insightful - 3 fun7 insightful - 2 fun8 insightful - 3 fun -  (5 children)

Could I have sex with a man? Yes, I’ve done it before. I don’t see why I couldn’t do it and maybe even make myself come from it. Do I want to do it? On some level kind of. I have a lot of curiousity about it at this point since it’s been built up so much in my mind.

I don't think it was in the context of puberty, but either way, she said she still wants to have sex with a man (on some level) >today< so that's irrelevant. In my first comment I said that I think things will be easier for her if she just accepts that she's bisexual and I still stand by that.

Also, what good point did she make about how some lesbians are treated? I'm not being sarcastic, I'm really wondering.

[–]Seahorse 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

I didn't read the whole convos on the thread only that she did have some good points in her OP about sexuality and what is going on with it.

Honestly as an older generation lesbian I have a different take to a lot on here, I'm really not interested in someone's past all that much only that their present and future will be exclusively female (I didn't get the impression that OP was about to jump back into bed with dudes but maybe I need to read it again).

She has said that we need to be nicer to each other and we do in regards to accusing people of being low key bisexual.

I remember reading a comment on here about some poster saying that some other posters weren't lesbians because they found a male celebrity attractive at like 10.....like come on now, that's silly.

[–]Hydiee 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I know the post you are referring to, and everyone was against that person and could see how ridiculous they were being. There's definitely a few nuts like that.

This is very different, however. Given everything she's written, I don't think it's nuts to assume that she's not a lesbian. At this point, it's nuts to assume that she is. Like I said, there's absolutely nothing wrong with being bisexual.

[–][deleted] 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Agreed, and regardless of her orientation, it's nuts to continuously make these meandering, male-centric posts and then play the victim when people start doubting her sexuality.

I've struggled a lot with coming to terms with being gay and no longer clinging to the possibility of being bisexual, so I want to sympathize with her, but jesus christ, that post about the bdsm dreams and the detailed dick sex. What the fuck.

[–]Seahorse 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Fair point I have read the rest of the thread a bit more!

[–][deleted] 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I'm really not interested in someone's past all that much only that their present and future will be exclusively female

Normally I agree, but this poster has a history of inundating the board with her text walls of man-obsession to justify calling herself a lesbian (I'm still not sure how the logic works) and it's just weird, alienating and offensive.

[–]peaked2020 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

She wrote an essay about how she thought vaginas were disgusting for years and was asked by another woman who slept with her if she was even liked to women at all. She calls them gross and says they have “nasty liquid” that she would force herself to eat out for her girlfriend. She had to learn to like them after months of forcing it with her girlfriend... then she marveled at how she finally didn’t feel like she wanted a man watching them or had any desire for a boyfriend. Then concludes it saying she still has some desire for men and May sleep with them sometimes. That too after sleeping with multiple men in the past because of “society”... It isn’t people being combative, she is not gay and I frankly find it disturbing that she forced herself to learn to like a sex organ.

[–]Skipdip[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Literally thank you. All I wanted by way oversharing on here is to hear that. I am from a pretty privileged situation that just so happened to be homophobic and sexist. Somehow I internalized a lot around it :/ I finally figured this out, in the midst of this cultural insanity. And now here I am, subjecting myself to this for some reason.