all 44 comments

[–]Gearbeta 29 insightful - 1 fun29 insightful - 0 fun30 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

Most of the time I hear things like this, it's either a clueless bisexual not understanding that not everyone is like them, or an attempt to get specifically women to do something they don't want to do. Like the obvious get a lesbian to date/fuck a man or a straight man trying to get his girlfriend into a FFM threesome despite her telling him multiple times she's not bi. It's coercive.

[–][deleted]  (1 child)


    [–]TalerTest 15 insightful - 1 fun15 insightful - 0 fun16 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

    People definitely don't respect women's sexuality as much as mens.

    Thats all it comes down to in the end.

    [–]writerlylesbian[S] 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

    Yes, the coercive element is absolutely another reason to retire the whole thing.

    [–][deleted] 19 insightful - 1 fun19 insightful - 0 fun20 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

    The “sexual spectrum” is mostly to measure women’s openness to dick, or that is what it has become in the last 20 years.

    Men are much less likely to explore or even report same sex behaviour for social reasons (including shunning, violence, imprisonment, even death in some places), so the spectrum analysis is not really able to report many males, giving us a very inaccurate idea that more women are bisexual than men, when I really really believe there are just as many, if not MORE male bisexuals.

    [–]reader 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

    I also suspect it. In cultures and spaces where banging a man is not seen as feminine (ancient Greece, prisons, schools with internet) males bang each others like crazy. And they project their bisexual desires for men into women.

    [–][deleted] 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

    I know quite a few “straight” men who are deeply “bromantic” with other men. The way they speak about some of their male friends is literally like listening to a bisexual speak about someone they are into. Like, they really love and admire other guys and if the world was less dumb maybe those guys would have felt better about what seems like total bisexuality. Also, I’ve known quite a few “straight” women who REALLY talk about women in a way, and eventually they admit things like “you know....I am totally straight and so straight and everything, but like, I can understand why women like women....but I mean, not me.....but other women. You know?” and give it a minute and those same women are bi. Edit: and I don’t mean publicly bragging about being a “hot bisexual” I mean, secretly telling a lesbian and asking her not to tell anyone, and having a personal crisis over it.

    [–]mangosplums 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

    Definitely. I think that culture is starting to change a bit, but it's on the down low. I was hanging with two of my cousins, one male and one female, and my female cousin's boyfriend. He was chatting with my male cousin and casually asked if he was on grindr, and the cousin replied he's "everywhere". They obviously thought I would have never heard of grindr and wouldn't know what they were talking about. You'd never suspect either of these men were bisexual.

    [–]MyLongestJourney 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

    Most of the time I hear things like this, it's either a clueless bisexual not understanding that not everyone is like them, or an attempt to get specifically women to do something they don't want to do.


    [–][deleted] 16 insightful - 6 fun16 insightful - 5 fun17 insightful - 6 fun -  (5 children)

    I got into a “debate” about this a few months ago with a woman who claimed to be a non-binary lesbian with bisexual urges. It was really hard to keep my cool while explaining how it was impossible to be someone who doesn’t identify as any gender to claim to be a woman who only likes woman who likes to fucks men. Eventually it ended with me telling her to sit down and STFU because you’re not f-ing special, evolved or cool.

    [–]MyLongestJourney 14 insightful - 5 fun14 insightful - 4 fun15 insightful - 5 fun -  (2 children)

    a woman who claimed to be a non-binary

    My brain automatically translates non-binary as "attention whore".

    [–][deleted] 13 insightful - 2 fun13 insightful - 1 fun14 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

    Attention whore with a strong sense of entitlement.

    [–]oofreesouloo 7 insightful - 4 fun7 insightful - 3 fun8 insightful - 4 fun -  (0 children)

    Same haha

    [–]writerlylesbian[S] 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

    haha, yeah, I totally understand losing your patience. Being polite and logical with the ones who feel entitled to lesbian sexuality gets us nowhere.

    [–][deleted] 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

    She didn’t like being told you aren’t special for sure. I think a lot of this boils down to peoples need to feel different by apply labels that make absolutely no sense at all.

    [–]VioletRemi 11 insightful - 4 fun11 insightful - 3 fun12 insightful - 4 fun -  (1 child)

    Why I Think It's Bunk

    Why I know it's bunk.

    I was married for 3 years on man. And dated one man after that. Ex-husband was really great man, like really great person, handsome, strong, carying, very kind, and so on.

    And yet...I was feeling nothing. In bed I really tried a lot of times, but in the end I decided I am just frigid or something. It was just same for me as sleeping with pillow, no feeling, nothing.

    And I was thinking I am frigid or asexual, until I slept in one bed with woman. My blood was pumping, her scent was driving me crazy. I realized, that I am not frigid, my body just not accepting men. And that is it. And I can do nothing about it. It is how my physiology works, it has nothing to do with my choice, with my thoughts or with my anything. It is just how my body works. I can't "spectrum" my body to like men or transwomen, just can't. Sexuality is as fluid as granite.

    [–]writerlylesbian[S] 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

    Yes, this seems to be the crux that so many of these researchers and supporters of the 'spectrum' simply can't wrap their heads around. I think a lot of it is to do with not respecting or recognising female sexuality at all in the first place. Men basically seem to think we just exist to be used as their masturbation toys/porn props.

    [–]oofreesouloo 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

    I love you already lmao

    [–]writerlylesbian[S] 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

    Aw, thanks :)

    [–]Urzsiah 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

    The idea of sexuality being a spectrum definitely delayed my coming out. I was in an unwanted comp het relationship for a long time and part of me thought that I had to be bi because I at one point thought I was attracted to my ex. I even took a test and because I'd been with a guy it labeled me bi. It was such a relief when I stopped listening to shit like that and accepted that my sexuality wasn't on some sliding scale.

    [–]writerlylesbian[S] 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

    Yes, isn't it interesting how this tool that is supposedly about helping people to accept themselves is actually detrimental to so many lesbians.

    [–][deleted] 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (17 children)

    Exactly. I was telling someone it was more like a Venn diagram of overlapping factors. A “spectrum” is just black and white thinking with extra steps, and it’s extremely reductive.

    If all you are measuring with it is exact sexual behaviour for a given point in time (the time of the survey or whatever tool used to record the info) then MAYBE you can place someone on a behaviour spectrum. But that is literally all the spectrum idea can be used for, and even then it is not the best.

    I HATE spectrum breakdowns of anything. The only way you can use one is it there are no poles. Like, measuring ONE activity, like skiing, people who ski a lot are at one side and people who don’t ski are at the other.

    If you want to measure things that are deeply influenced by social rules and even LAWS, like sexual activity and desire etc, you would have to take many difference measures into account and plot them all. The evaluative tool would have to be very complex.

    People have sex for many many different reasons, and unfortunately, desire itself doesn’t always enter into it. I read a study on all of the reasons people reported for having sex (I think it was a study of straight ppl, I forget) and the reasons were astounding.

    [–][deleted] 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (14 children)

    Also, is a woman who kisses women when she’s drunk at the bar considered “bisexual” on a spectrum? What about a man who gets off on feet, but it doesn’t matter whose feet they are? Is he bi if it’s a man’s feet? Or AGPs who get of on themselves as a woman, so they sleep with a man, but they themselves are still the focus of the sex, the man is equivalent to a blow up doll? Is this person bisexual? What about a woman in a homophobic country who is married to a man and can’t act on feelings toward women? Is she bi? Is she actually a lesbian? What does “mostly straight” even mean?

    [–][deleted]  (7 children)


      [–][deleted] 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

      That’s exactly why using a spectrum as a tool to measure anything complex is such a strong political tool, and so completely useless as an actual analytical tool. AND it is one of the main tools used by gender identity ideologues. Surprise surprise. With Barbie and G.I. Motherfucking Joe at the end.

      [–][deleted] 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

      Also: the people who use these breakdowns of sexuality in modern times are lazy. If you’re (researchers) going to make assertions around complex issues you had better check your biases otherwise you don’t deserve to be published.

      I assume at the time the Kinsey nonsense was created, people didn’t realize being non-straight was even okay, or possible. Same as political lesbianism. They were saying “hey, women can be lesbians. It’s something you can do” to normalize women centring women and women’s issues. It’s become a whole “fake lesbians” narrative thing now, but at one time women didn’t even realize it was possible or desirable, any women.

      [–]writerlylesbian[S] 9 insightful - 3 fun9 insightful - 2 fun10 insightful - 3 fun -  (4 children)

      One of the things that I am personally very annoyed about is that there is this astronomical amount of 'queer research' out there, and yet there is so little useful research that is actually carried out in/on LGB populations. So many words, so much useless data.

      And yes, not accounting for your own biases or understanding the population you're researching. I remember talking to this woman once who was angry because she was interviewing older lesbians in rural areas who, as she discovered, did not like modern queer/LGBT/gender politics. What a shocker! Her conclusion: they were obviously backward bigots who hadn't evolved. Or like those researchers who found that lesbians would date transmen but not transwomen and concluded the lesbians were hypocritical bigots because they would date 'men.' LOLOL

      [–][deleted] 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

      I find all women being lumped in together as “queer” to be quite misleading since the vast majority of queer id women are not behaviourally same sex attracted. Meaning the almost never fuck women. They really skew the numbers.

      [–]writerlylesbian[S] 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)


      [–]hufflepuff-poet 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

      I hadn't thought about how useless so much of modern queer research is gonna be to actual LGB people.. atleast it'll be a good study in mass social delusion.

      Wow, that last point is so wild, sometimes I forget how deep some people are in the gender kool-aid! Lesbians are dating transmen because they're women, these people are delusional.

      [–]writerlylesbian[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

      And queer theory has been around for 30 years at this point. Imagine what could have been accomplished!

      [–][deleted] 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

      Also also: autism shares characteristics with loads of other mental health diagnosis so it’s not easy to fit in a goddamn spectrum either. It’s not even easy to diagnose and varies from doctor to doctor, all of the mental health stuff does. But linear thinkers gonna linear I guess.

      [–]writerlylesbian[S] 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

      Oh yes, I completely agree about autism. It is in no way a simple and straightforward diagnosis where an individual can be easily slotted in along a line like looking at a ph soil test result. I think the point my friend was trying to make (badly) was that autism wasn't thought of as only being the very extreme/non-verbal condition it was 20/30 years ago. But there are a whole lot of other factors that have gone into that change in thinking, not just, all the doctors woke up one day and realised it was a spectrum all along!!

      [–]Gearbeta 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

      There's a term for the AGP variety of this called "Pseudobisexuality" Since their fetish is being a woman, getting fucked by a man feeds into that fetish but they're not bisexual because they're not attracted to the man who's fucking them. IDK if I really buy that they're not "actually" bisexual but its an interesting theory.

      [–][deleted] 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

      But it’s a great example of exactly what I mean, and probably one of the complexities the op means are not captured. gender identity disorder was a “personality disorder” as a classification in the past, if I remember right, so I could see the sexual activity of someone with a personality disorder like that perhaps being confusing to themselves etc for a long time because those issues cloud orientation issues. Like, how do we classify fetishes and disorders? Where do asexuals sit? Lots of “asexuals” have sex preferences and sexual activity despite being asexual to a degree, but they are not included in the scale but are somehow outside of it. Like wtf

      [–]Gearbeta 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

      I would argue that in many cases of "asexuals" they're not actually asexual at all but are reacting to an increasingly sexual society that tells them things about being sexual that they can't relate with. For example, I've seen on tumblr many girls saying that they're asexual and yet have a history of exclusively dating and having and enjoying sex with men. When you look further they say all sorts of weird things like "oh I'm not into hookups" or "I don't find pictures of guys attractive" or "I think penises look weird and i'm not into sucking dick" or "I hooked up with a bunch of men who basically used me as a sex toy and I hated it thus I must be asexual". On the gay side of things, a lot of girls think (and the current state of things doesn't make this better) that if they're not attracted to men they must be asexual. No questioning if they're attracted to women or not, just the lack of attraction to men = asexual.

      EDIT: to add, I feel like most research into sexuality isn't very good because not enough women are included and bad faith researchers who come to questionable conclusions (like that lady who studied women's sexuality and came to the conclusion that all women are bisexual and ignored the data from lesbians who were consistently attracted to women and that never changed) ruin it.

      [–][deleted] 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

      Yeah, and attraction is made out to be some weird magical fantasy thing where you are just swooning 24/7. That’s not really how it works. People are not just suddenly extremely aroused out of nowhere because they saw one photo or walked past an attractive person. It takes some actual interaction with potential

      [–]writerlylesbian[S] 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

      Yes, all the data can be used for is to capture sexual behaviour at the point the data was taken. Especially if it's just a one-off, with no follow up over several years, it tells you absolutely nothing. You simply cannot draw any meaningful conclusions. And if it's not taking into account all the complex social and political factors, it becomes even more useless.

      [–][deleted] 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

      I think bisexuals should really be militant about getting studies of them in particular, because they have different experiences from lesbians and straight people and research calling everyone “fluid” and so forth actually stigmatizes them. At least true bisexuals like my best friend who is a febfem and married. Really, homosexuals being included in studies with bisexuals that are meant to make general claims about all people are really inaccurate.

      [–]mangosplums 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

      I don't agree. Someone who is a 0 or 6 on the kinsey scale has a fixed sexuality. I don't think that placing them on the end of a spectrum implies that their sexuality is fluid or flexible in any way. I think it's the contrary.

      [–][deleted] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

      There was a recent study by someone called Kaestle which I thought was interesting as it looks at the idea of sexuality through the lens of development— starting to move away from the fluid stuff but it still has some of that language. A lot people people try things out before figuring out what they like and what they don't like. If a young person puts themselves in the "sexuality is fluid" box I personally mentally put them into a "still working stuff out box". But my 2c, is that if you're an adult and still "fluid" then call a spade a spade and say you're bisexual. Ain't nothing wrong with that, but you give me the shits calling yourself a lesbian.

      [–]writerlylesbian[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

      Yes, it makes sense that for some young people there may well be experimentation while they work themselves out. I also agree though that once adulthood hits, if you're still 'fluid' then you're not a lesbian!

      [–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

      Sounds like they are taking the Kinsey scale and changing it to suit their purposes, as they are wont to do.

      Dr. Alfred Kinsey, Dr. Wardell Pomeroy, and Dr. Clyde Martin developed the Heterosexual-Homosexual Rating Scale, also known as the “The Kinsey Scale,” in order to account for research findings that showed that a lot of people did not fit into exclusive heterosexual or homosexual categories.

      The Kinsey team interviewed thousands of people about their sexual histories. Research showed that sexual behavior, thoughts, and feelings towards the same or opposite sex were not always consistent across time.

      The Kinsey Scale is a widely used index and instrument for measuring heterosexual and homosexual behavior. The Kinsey Scale does not address all possible sexual identities and does not purport to accommodate respondents who identify as non-binary. Contrary to popular belief, Kinsey was not a behaviorist, but that sexuality is much broader than simply lived behavior. The Kinsey Scale is dated, yet remains popular in many contexts.

      The original Kinsey Reports, Sexual Behavior in the Human Male (1948) and Sexual Behavior of the Human Female (1953), are broadly agreed to be historically significant.

      On one side of the scale is 100% heterosexual and the other side, 100% homosexual.

      People can fall anywhere along the scale.

      [–]writerlylesbian[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

      Well yeah...1948 and 1953. That's a large part of the problem. This was a time when nearly everyone was assumed to be exclusively heterosexual, with a few who were deemed to be perverts and weirdos on the edges, which included homosexuals amongst others. So I'm sure that finding there were a lot more homosexuals and bisexuals than supposed was revolutionary for the time. But these results have to be taken in the context of being well before the gay rights movement, when a lot of homosexuals were probably in hetero marriages, when a lot of homosexuals didn't necessarily want to think of themselves that way because of negative social stigma etc.

      The fact that the studies were historically significant and provided a lot of data at the time that was new and challenging doesn't mean the concept is as useful in 2020. It has many limitations, some of which I pointed out in my original post. It's bizarrely simplistic to attempt to simply slot people in along a spectrum.

      And the issue is, even if you have these 'poles' that are meant to be fixed at either end, just the fact that Kinsey conceived of sexuality as a spectrum opens it up to the idea that people can move along the spectrum (and isn't that one of the things that his research found?) So if some people can move, why can't everyone move? Using the framework of a spectrum basically invites that question, whether intentionally or not.

      [–]Liz-B-Anne 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

      See, I don't think of the spectrum as referring to sexual fluidity at all. That's a whole other issue. I don't think that's necessarily how Kinsey meant it either (though I may be wrong, somebody correct me if so). As for peoples' "identities" and orientations not matching up, that's usually an issue of trying to fit into society's forced or perceived roles rather than a mismatch of anything innate. Or maybe they don't understand that "bisexual" doesn't have to mean you like both sexes equally.

      But I have read claims that porn preference has nothing to do with orientation, yet that's one of the parameters scientists use to determine someone's "real" orientation which is problematic if true. (My ex watched straight porn & denied being bi but left me for a man, so I tend to think the latter scenario HAS to be somewhat true).

      [–]writerlylesbian[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

      Much research into sexuality, whether historical or contemporary, is hot garbage underwritten by a whole bunch of unexamined biases and assumptions, and usually a lot of misogyny as well.

      Porn, especially the way it is now, is basically filmed sexual exploitation. The fact that it's even considered to be in the realms of what should make up one's sexual appetites is just an indication of how fucking skewed and broken the entire study of sexuality is.