Indoctrination / Doublethink"Homosexuality? Racism? I don't see the difference?"

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[–]CaptainMooseEx-Bathhouse Employee 16 insightful - 3 fun16 insightful - 2 fun17 insightful - 3 fun -  (7 children)

Why would it matter if they were born with penis or had one surgically constructed? Does that mean if a man has an accident and his dick has to be reconstructed he's not a man anymore or that if a gay man is still attracted to him, that gay man isn't gay? And I never said I be fine with sleeping with or dating a trans guy before surgery, I wouldn't be. But afterwards they are men and as a guy attracted exclusively to men, I'm gay.

Let's break this down:

  1. What is constructed by phalloplasty surgery is not, in fact, a penis. It doesn't function like a penis and it only vaguely looks like a penis in the most successful cases (but even still you can tell something is wrong). It is prone to complications, not only to the flesh tube created but to the donor site.

  2. Even if the phalloplasty were successful and "passed" well enough to put it out of mind, it doesn't change all of the other elements of biological women that I as a homosexual man find unattractive. HRT only goes so far in masculinizing appearance. While it reduces buccal fat around the eyes, it doesn't lead to the development of a stronger brow bone (giving transmen that "methhead" look), it doesn't change the size of your hands or feet, etc. Transmen have noticeably female faces the longer you look at them. When gay men and lesbians say we are attracted to the WHOLE PERSON of the same-sex, we mean it.

  3. If a long term partner were to lose his penis to an accident, to cancer, etc., I may stay with him. Would we have sex? Maybe, but most likely not. We would likely still be intimate because he still has every other male feature, unlike a transman who just has the features of a roided out woman. For me, it doesn't feel good to be intimately touched by a woman. Unlike men whose touch is soothing, women's touch feels draining and violating for me. That won't change because a woman is taking steroids and chopped up her body.

  4. Based on the last line, I do believe that this poster is actual a gay man, albeit a very naive one. The truth is that the transition process is like Plato's allegory of the cave. It is very easy for us, like people who transition, to believe that the end result is going to be a you of the opposite sex. I remember being a teenager and following a few transgender youtubers (such as skylarkeleven). I believe that the longer she was on cross-sex hormones, she eventually would look just like a man. Nearly 13 years later and she still looks like a woman with a beard (although now she's sporting those glasses that transmen all love because they cover the browbone).

[–]goonmessiahBi-Bi-Bitches 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

You seem to have pinpointed the differences quite well. Have you noticed any difference in scent between a man and a FTM? I don’t usually get close enough to trans people, but those that I have been able to smell repulse me.

[–]CaptainMooseEx-Bathhouse Employee 12 insightful - 2 fun12 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 2 fun -  (3 children)

I haven't been close enough to tell. If anything, they smell more "neutral", similar to how butch lesbians (who don't shave their body hair) I know who use men's body wash and deodorant tend to smell. Not intoxicating like healthy men smell to me, but just neutral.

MtFs on the other hand typically smell putrid. It reminds me of when I used to shave my armpits and how I would have to reuse deodorant every 3-4 hours. BO masked with cheap perfume.

[–]MarkJeffersonTight defenses and we draw the line 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

MtFs on the other hand typically smell putrid.

Why do you think that is?

[–]CaptainMooseEx-Bathhouse Employee 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Most deodorants and perfumes marketed toward women already smell bad to me, plus you add on the fact that this dude is removing his body hair which helps to regulate his pheromones when he sweats, and then you add on the fact that he is taking cross-sex hormones which do change how you smell so... these men just become BO factories.

[–]MarkJeffersonTight defenses and we draw the line 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I see. That pheromone regulation feature I didn't know about before. I also heard that body hair is a lot less conducive to bacterial growth than skin, so having some around to wick off the apocrine sweat(the sort that eventually reeks due to bacteria decomposition) from the skin reduces one's BO.

Yeah, and all those ingested hormones in completely the wrong ratio in the male body is bound to cause problems.

[–]dilsencySame-sex community 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

HRT only goes so far in masculinizing appearance. While it reduces buccal fat around the eyes, it doesn't lead to the development of a stronger brow bone (giving transmen that "methhead" look), it doesn't change the size of your hands or feet, etc. Transmen have noticeably female faces the longer you look at them. When gay men and lesbians say we are attracted to the WHOLE PERSON of the same-sex, we mean it.

It's not that brow bone or buccal fat (whatever that is) is the direct cause to gay men finding males attractive, even if some sex characteristics are attractive (on a man). It's the feeling that something is off. It's that once the realization hits that this person is not male after all, whatever fleeting emotion that is mistaken for attraction vanishes. Losing interest/"mistaken attraction" based on new information, and having your assumptions corrected, is very normal.

[–]iamonlyoneman 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

You could call that "falling suddenly into the uncanny valley"

[–]7874 14 insightful - 1 fun14 insightful - 0 fun15 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Orientation isn't the same as preference, but it's also not racist to have a racial preference or a race you won't date.

[–]Horror-SwordfishI don't get how flairs work 9 insightful - 7 fun9 insightful - 6 fun10 insightful - 7 fun -  (0 children)

I feel like it would be a lot easier for some of these people to make their point if they could string together a coherent sentence.

[–]censorshipment 8 insightful - 2 fun8 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 2 fun -  (3 children)

I'm black and make the same comparison, although it's more so based on gay folks who identify as trans, so lesbians not wanting "trans men" and gay men not wanting "trans women" because that's what the issue used to be before straight white folks came along and changed the issue within the LGBT (the T being homosexual trans folks).

I used to view trans folks as simply another group of insecure people whining about being undesirable like a lot of black folks, fat folks, old folks, and physically disabled/deformed folks do.

[–]Q-Continuum-kin 9 insightful - 2 fun9 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 2 fun -  (2 children)

The fact that some people are undesirable is unfortunate but these people aren't even usually undesirable beforehand and they insist on trying to force the single group of people who can't find them desirable to do so.

If they were RPG characters they would be a warrior class and every normal group desires you for a balanced group. But the spec all their points into being a social justice warrior and lose all survival stats. The only thing they bring to a group are darkest dungeon type negative effects that make the entire group lose stamina and go crazy. Then they cancel all groups trying to raid the dungeon without them.

[–]7874 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

The vast majority of "undesirable" people would be at least average if they had good hygiene, hit the gym a little, and maybe got a nice haircut.

Good metaphor lol.

[–]MarkJeffersonTight defenses and we draw the line 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Then they cancel all groups trying to raid the dungeon without them.

Just desserts for being total bigots and excluding the most oppressed class from their adventuring parties just for being disabled(arrow in the knee).

But anyway, is DD fun and worth getting?

[–]our_team_is_winning 6 insightful - 2 fun6 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

The thread below that said a gay bar was 70% straight women and 10% dudes with their girlfriends.... Stay in Your Lane should be a thing, it really should.

[–]Mermer 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Oh my fucking God, not dating someone is not oppression or discrimination. It is something deeply personal and anyone can date who they fucking want. You wouldn't call a black person racist for not wanting to date a white person, you wouldn't call a trans person transphobic for not wanting to date another trans person. Are gay men misogynists? Check your fucking entitlement if you think dating or not dating someone is oppression.

[–]ThrowMeAway2879[S] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Fair enough but would you accept that if someone didn't say they don't date people of a certain race but aren't racist? Maybe they're just not attracted to certain features commonly seen in a race or find one trait that a given race just lacks as unattractive. I just can't accept someone saying they won't date all trans people aren't transphobic but someone that says they won't date people of a certain race is racist. To me it's the same thing.