Boys TWICE as likely as girls 'to be bullied about sexual orientation'

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[–]censorshipment 22 insightful - 4 fun22 insightful - 3 fun23 insightful - 4 fun -  (28 children)

...in Brazil.

I'm not sure what reaction you're trying to get here, but if boys are bullying other boys... then I see this as a male problem that has nothing to do with the female population.

[–]mvmlego 16 insightful - 1 fun16 insightful - 0 fun17 insightful - 1 fun -  (26 children)

if boys are bullying other boys... then I see this as a male problem

That may be true, but it's not particularly important. Regardless of who's perpetrating the bullying, it's good for school faculty, guidance counselors, and administrative staff (including the women in each of those roles) to be aware that boys are particularly at risk for being targeted by sexual orientation-related bullying.

[–]censorshipment 13 insightful - 6 fun13 insightful - 5 fun14 insightful - 6 fun -  (25 children)

I disagree. Let men handle it.

[–]8bitgay 23 insightful - 1 fun23 insightful - 0 fun24 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

That's a weird reply to the previous comment. Nobody has to "handle" other people's problems, in a general way, whether people involved are male or female.

But if you're part of a school faculty/staff, handling the students' problems is literally your job.

Also I dunno why you think only boys bully their gay classmates. FtMs wouldn't try to claim gay spaces if homophobic women didn't exist.

[–]censorshipment 13 insightful - 4 fun13 insightful - 3 fun14 insightful - 4 fun -  (6 children)

And this is why integration is a problem... women shouldn't have to deal with unruly boys, and men definitely shouldn't discipline girls.

[–]mvmlego 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

To be clear: are you advocating for separate boys' and girls' schools? I'm not necessarily saying that's a bad thing; I'd just be surprised. I tend to hear more support for that idea among social conservatives and the most vocal opposition to that idea among second-wave feminists.

[–]censorshipment 3 insightful - 5 fun3 insightful - 4 fun4 insightful - 5 fun -  (4 children)

Yes. I am a separatist and support separatism/segregation based on sex, race, and even sexuality. I hate that black folks and women fought for desegregation/integration.

[–]mvmlego 4 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

That's... good to know. Thanks for the clarification.

[–]MrFahrenheit46 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

May I ask why you support separatism based on those categories?

[–]censorshipment 4 insightful - 5 fun4 insightful - 4 fun5 insightful - 5 fun -  (1 child)

Men, white people, and straight people (and het-partnered bi people) steamroll women, black people (I don't care about other "people of color"), and gay people. I am honestly mostly annoyed by white straight/male-partnered women... I'm tired of them acting like damsels in distress.

That's my petty answer since I'm in a petty mood.

[–]mvmlego 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

While it would be easier for the students to be separated by some of those characteristics in the short term, it would make things more difficult for them and society as a whole in the long term. If boys and girls (or black students and white students, etc.) don't learn how to work alongside one-another when they're young, then they're going to have to go through those struggles when they're older--either in college or in the workplace--unless you're advocating for completely apartheid society.

Such a society may be plausible with regard to race (though I'd contest the notion that it's desirable), but it's certainly not plausible with regard to sex. As for sexual orientation... even just separating schoolchildren on that basis isn't really possible, since kids often can't confidently classify their sexual orientation until their mid teens.

I don't think your solution would actually solve the problem you're seeking to address, either. Segregated schools (or societies) would probably result in an increase in disparities between groups, since the separation allows bigoted actors to more easily target members of certain demographic groups for mistreatment. It would also enable curricula and educational styles that reinforced problematic racial stereotypes, gender roles, etc., making integration down the line even more difficult.

Speaking of which, are you proposing that the education system would remain divided these ways indefinitely, or just until some standard of equal treatment in integrated schools could be assured? If the latter, then what would that standard be? If the former, then why do you believe that equal treatment can never be possible?

P.S.: Speaking in generalized terms about some demographic group doing some bad thing is unhelpful, inflammatory, and typically leverages its vagueness to try to support some sort of incorrect conclusion--and in case you're wondering, I say the same thing to white people making unflattering generalizations about a black person, men making unflattering generalizations about women, etc.

[–]oofreesouloo⚡super lesbian⚡ 19 insightful - 2 fun19 insightful - 1 fun20 insightful - 2 fun -  (10 children)

Agreed. Men should start change attitudes and take responsability for their actions and let women take a break for constantly trying to "cover" the bs that it's mostly caused by men

[–]mvmlego 14 insightful - 3 fun14 insightful - 2 fun15 insightful - 3 fun -  (7 children)

Your comment seems to rely on two premises, both of which appear to be false:

1) that men (specifically, the male school staff) are causally responsible for the boys being bullied.

2) that school staff should only be responsible for fixing the problems that they cause.

To the first point: in what way is boys bullying boys caused by male school staff failing to take responsibility for their actions? To the second: of course people aren't only responsible for fixing whatever problems they've caused. If a staff member's only responsibility was to do no net harm, then there would be no reason to pay them in the first place.

[–]oofreesouloo⚡super lesbian⚡ 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

The 2nd point is not true, I don't know where you got that idea from my answer lmao. I simply said that men should start changing attitude over the problems they cause, as women should also. In this case, it's true that most physical bullying directed at gay men is caused by straight males. Males should start taking responsability and not constantly hope that women or some staff will constantly "cover it up" and yes, of course school staff should be responsible for all problems caused, be them caused by a male or female.

[–]mvmlego 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

The 2nd point is not true, I don't know where you got that idea from my answer lmao.

Your original comment was a non-sequitur, so I had to fill in your reasoning as best I could. You said that you agreed with someone who claimed (a) "this [is] a problem that has nothing to do with the female population" and (b) "let men handle it". This implies that you believe, for example, that female guidance counselors, the mother of a bully, and the mother of a victim of bullying have no responsibility to help resolve boy-on-boy bullying.

You've been pretty adamant about the point that men are causally responsible for boys bullying other boys, and I don't see how this would relate to conclusions (a) and (b) unless you were also operating under the hidden premise that people aren't responsible for solving problems that they didn't cause.

Also, you haven't clarified how men are responsible for sexual-orientation-based boy-on-boy bullying. How are the men in this situation causally responsible for the problem, and how does that justify censorshipment's comments that men bear sole responsibility for fixing it?

[–]oofreesouloo⚡super lesbian⚡ 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

unless you were also operating under the hidden premise that people aren't responsible for solving problems that they didn't cause.

Yes, I believe this. People, males or females, should take responsabilities for their own actions. People who have no fault shouldn't have to be constantly "covering up" the mess someone else did.

What I mean is that men should start being aware from at a young age to be more aware of their actions, or things simply won't get better. Everyone knows that most physical harrassment towards gay men are from (straight) males. And it should be MEN calling out other MEN and giving the example. And I say the same with females. Women present no physical danger to males whatsoever even if they wished to do harm to gay men. Look at these FTM's. They do harrass gay men, yes. And yes, they should be called out for it. But do they really present some kind of physical threat the same way MTF present to lesbians? Hell no. Gay men usualy laugh at their faces and tell them to fuck off. Women are no physical threat to men.

[–]mvmlego 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Yes, I believe this. People, males or females, should take responsabilities for their own actions. People who have no fault shouldn't have to be constantly "covering up" the mess someone else did.

In that case, my second point was appropriate: if a staff member's only responsibility is to do no net harm, then there would be no reason to employ them in the first place, so of course part of their job is to solve problems that they didn't cause. There's no reason this shouldn't include problems that are ostensibly caused by members of the opposite sex.

Regardless, you still haven't properly addressed the first point: how are the male faculty, guidance counselors, administrators, fathers of the bullies, and fathers of the victims categorically more responsible for boys heteronormatively bullying boys than the female faculty, guidance counselors, administrators, mothers of the bullies, and mothers of the victims are? You keep changing the subject to men harassing other men, but that's not what the article, the study, or the Saidit post are about; they're about boys bullying other boys--and the male adults in those boys' lives didn't necessarily cause the bullying any more so than the female adults in those boys' lives caused it.

[–]oofreesouloo⚡super lesbian⚡ 7 insightful - 2 fun7 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 2 fun -  (2 children)

Because it's important for young boys to have good men roles while growing up. Simple as that. And the same goes for women. Education from a young age, men need to be more present. Unfortunately, in many cases, it's still the women who does lots of the work.

And now, considering the example of a school's staff. I definitely think it should be the male staff members to handle male bullies and female staff members to handle female bullies. So schools should have in my opinion, staff from both sexes.

[–]BonesRedsMy pronouns are Yu/Gi/Oh! 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

While I agree that men should start to focus on improving attitudes towards groups that are different than them, that's both a human problem and a tremendous undertaking. I think it would be irresponsible to let gay men take care of it themselves, just as I think it would be irresponsible for gay men to let us lesbians handle the predatory MtFs ourselves. I don't see why we can't help each other in these issues.

[–]oofreesouloo⚡super lesbian⚡ 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

We can help each other. But until men don't realise how harmful their actions can be and take responsability, things won't ever get better.

[–]ThiccDropkickGay 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Where in the article does it say that boys are the sole perpetrators?