Targeting / HarassmentGuy posts about social pressure that lead to partner's suicide as a reason to have LGB exclusive forums. GenderCynical poster only shows the last 2 paragraphs out of 6, removing all context relating to his partner.

submitted by MarkJeffersonTight defenses and we draw the line from i.imgur.com

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[–]markiemarcus 82 insightful - 2 fun82 insightful - 1 fun83 insightful - 2 fun -  (11 children)

I am that guy. And yes, the behaviour over at GenderCynical left me sick to my stomach. It's fucked up; I don't know how else to describe it.

I will speak out in defense of a few folks there; I did receive a few PMs from contributors who were mortified. Not that many, a handful, but still. The first commenter was also perfectly civil and decent in PMs.

[–]RedEyedWarriorGay | Male | 🇮🇪 Irish 🇮🇪 | Antineoliberal | Cocks are Compulsory 37 insightful - 1 fun37 insightful - 0 fun38 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

I am terribly sorry to have read about what your boyfriend has went through, and how he ended it. He definitely should have been given proper support. His parents have blood on their hands, but so too do the people who shut down LGB-exclusive spaces "for transphobia".

[–]markiemarcus 40 insightful - 1 fun40 insightful - 0 fun41 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

I appreciate that, thank you. He was cut short and deserved the world. His parents do have blood on their hands; it was a nightmare situation at the time, but it was also impossible to fully vent my anger. One's better instincts kick in, whether we want them to or not. I started to question what was going through their heads; fundamentally, they still lost a son and I think they knew it was their fault. Still, I had a complete nervous breakdown over the course of the next year. I haven't seen his parents in 14 years; I don't think I could look at them again to be completely honest. Different days at the cemetery etc. so I try to avoid it.

The LGB+T groups we went to at the time unfortunately didn't help the situation. They would run these group counselling sessions and I think we attended about a dozen. Maybe a little less than that. I wouldn't say that any of them were constructive for the reasons I've already laid out, but I recall being absolutely mortified at one in particular. I could see that he was upset so we left and never returned. We had to find the money for more private therapy sessions (there's a waiting list in the public system) which helped to some degree, but I think he just felt so alienated at that point that us, being just us, wasn't enough. He needed a group of his peers, really. Lots of common experiences, something to really break that feeling of isolation and not have people constantly talking about their transitions; that really messed with his head given the circumstances. I really don't have any beef with most Trans people, I wish them well, I have a problem with this style of activism that insists that every single gay/lesbian/bisexual space has to be trans inclusive, when there are very, very good reasons for them to be separate.

I'm doing quite well these days, but it took a long time and you're certainly not the same after. The nightmares can be fucking awful and frequent.

[–]RedEyedWarriorGay | Male | 🇮🇪 Irish 🇮🇪 | Antineoliberal | Cocks are Compulsory 25 insightful - 1 fun25 insightful - 0 fun26 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

This is heartbreaking to hear. It just shows how careless it was of us to add the T at the end. We've especially ruined it for younger LGB people, because now their spaces are heavily dominated by the T's and the Qs. Not only has this made it harder for ordinary gay, lesbian and bisexual young people to talk about their grievances, this has also allowed spoilt, heterosexual kids to join and takeover our spaces.

Sadly, I have never met nor heard of a trans person, in real life or online, who didn't have a mental illness besides gender dysphoria. I just find them all delusional and crazy. Maybe I'm wrong and heartless, but the way TRAs behave has certainly not helped.

[–]markiemarcus 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I really am doing okay. The nightmares are a persistent reflex that I could do without, but you learn a routine for bringing yourself back to earth. Though I avoided them entirely for 5-6 years after, it was tough on new relationships. Takes a strong guy to not freak out. Yes, IIRC there was some degree of concern at the time regarding the addition. Complicated problems usually require bespoke solutions and I think it would be fair to say that Stonewall aren't really up to that these days. I take serious issue with some of their "literature" actually and Queer will always be a slur to me. It also doesn't appear to mean anything based on how I see it used; it's everything but also nothing.

I try to focus on the good trans role models. The loudest voices are always, without fail, the dumbest. That first commenter is actually a sweetheart in his PMs, once he realised what had happened. But this is the danger with these heavily moderated subs. People need dissenting views to grow as people and they're not getting that; it's a key component of the human experience. Things like ASD are definitely overrepresented and that explains some of the lack of empathy, but not all of it. The rest of it is cultivated by social media and heavily moderated interactions IMO; they don't have to be accountable for their antisocial behavior.

It's clear as day to anybody outside of that bubble, but when you're in it and you don't realise it?

[–]MarkJeffersonTight defenses and we draw the line[S] 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Yeah, there are still some good people on these forums whose perceptions are being warped by these shameful misrepresentations. I mean, look how many up-votes that post got. It should've been removed by the mods out of pure embarrassment once it was proved misleading. Instead, they doubled down. It's like an AA group where instead people just congratulate each other on their alcoholism and how many random fights they instigated that day. Certainly antisocial behaviour and I think you may be on to something with your ASD remark.

I'm sorry to hear about the anguish you had to go through and still are being affected by; It's tragic how your partner never got the safe, sympathetic community he really needed in life. Hopefully we can make enough of a difference now and in the future so others will never reach that point of hopelessness.

[–]Jamiethiel2018 23 insightful - 1 fun23 insightful - 0 fun24 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

you are spot on & your post was both heartbreaking & reasonable. may you find solace.

[–]markiemarcus 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I think it would be fair to say that I mostly have. Mostly. But I do miss him; he was really quite something and deserved a round two. As experience goes, I will never forget it or make the same mistakes. And right now we are making a lot of mistakes...

[–]indeepshadowsBi woman 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I'm so sorry for what you've had to endure. I can't even imagine how rough it must have been. :( You're absolutely reasonable to want exclusive spaces. I wish you all the best in the future, and please know there's a spot for you on this forum, if you want it.

[–]markiemarcus 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Thank you. Honestly, it really means a lot.

[–]PenseePansyBio-Sex or Bust 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

So powerful. Both your experience itself AND your account of it (it's wonderfully-written).

I'm saddened and outraged at what you and your boyfriend were subjected to. By his parents, of course, but also this entire movement of people. Who exacerbated what was already a perilous situation through sheer entitlement and selfishness. And, as if THAT weren't bad enough, when you tell them about the tragedy which resulted, then respond with more of the same. Thereby proving the very point of your post: that TQ+ must stay out of LGB spaces (though this irony is no doubt lost on them).

Because, of course, the kind of mistreatment that you, as an LGB person, experienced from the TQ+ both times is no coincidence. It's literally intrinsic to who they are.

Namely: straight (in the majority of cases), and convinced that "gender" overrides biological sex.

So most don't share, and thus cannot ever truly understand, our sexuality. And, as proponents of TQ+, all are inherently opposed to LGB identity (since it's based on, and thus recognizes the primacy of, biological sex-- one's own + that of those to whom one is attracted-- rather than gender).

Which means that TQ+: 1.] literally doesn't belong with LGB; and 2.] is, by its very nature, antithetical to LGB. Thus the necessity of prompt separation so eloquently, and movingly, expressed in your post.

I read in one of your other comments here that you're doing OK now; I hope that your recovery from this trauma continues.

One question, if I may: do you (as mentioned in the post) still continue to support trans people? I ask not as a criticism, but because trans people sure don't show any sign of ever supporting us in return. (And that's putting it mildly!)

[–]markiemarcus 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

99% of the time I'm in a great place. That 1% though...the ground sinks. I've kinda made peace that though; when I know that it's finite and transient it's muuuuch easier to accept it.

I don't have a quick answer to your question, unfortunately. There are conditions to my support...

I am what the youngsters would call a "transmedicalist" or "truscum". Though I have serious objections to medicalising children because the symptoms of gender dysphoria are so transient; some studies put the number at around 80%. If you're starting them on puberty blockers, all research points to the overwhelming majority continuing with full HRT. The current tag is that puberty blockers are fully reversible, which may be mostly (but not entirely) true in the short term physical sense, but there's absolutely zero research into the long term and nothing with regards to the psychological effects either. My biggest worry, is that puberty blockers are actually extending the dysphoria (because they haven't gone through puberty) and by the time they're on full HRT they'd have no way of knowing if their dysphoria would have subsided on its own after puberty; because they're pumped full of hormones thereafter. There are also very good reasons to go through puberty in the general sense; it's an essential part of human development. But even if it weren't, in the case of MtF transitions the genitalia actually need to be certain size for the surgery to be successful. Trans radicals are working against themselves there.

I think gender dysphoria is a very real thing and quality of life for some individuals increases post transition. Some, not all. That's an area where we're failing; I think we're now over-diagnosing the fuck out of teens and I fully expect a lot of lawsuits over the coming decade. I'd be thrilled if I were wrong.

Unfortunately, the current situation is a generational thing to a large degree. When you speak with trans people over the age of about 30, you find a very different set of views coming to light. Support for self-ID is surprisingly tepid, they find the notion of trans women competing in female sports to be outrageous and most of the things we've come to associate with trans radicals suddenly are no longer issues. I listen to people like Nicole Gibson (a UK personality) talk and think "How could anybody have a problem with you? Why would I not support you? Of course I do." She's a sweetheart and I greatly respect the stance she has taken given how difficult it is in the current environment. Same deal with Rinoa Leonhart, a Youtuber. Both good people and I will have their backs, regardless of whether or not they're outnumbered by feral, abusive TQ "Fraggle Rock" nutcases on Reddit.

IMO, what we have at the moment with trans youth, is to a moderate extent driven by rad-left politics and exacerbated by the higher prevalence of ASD and social media. They'd be hostile even without trans issues. Many of them will grow out of it and wonder what the fuck they were thinking by wanting both self-ID and access to single sex spaces. You can have one or the other, but not both.

So I support them because I want them to lead fulfilled, happy lives and become decent citizens. But in order to do that, the political tact has to change. Drastically. Fundamentally, they need to embrace who they are; people with gender dysphoria. For all the talk of "acceptance", this is a key area where they're currently fucking it up, because they're young and they've spent most of their adolescence obsessing over it. They don't accept the medical reality and they don't accept the transition process for how serious it is; they want the world to lie and turn on a dime. Now, there are times when a "white lie" is appropriate, healthy and pretty accurate. I'll use the pronouns if you've made the effort and are working with your physician, but I know that there's a difference. Not in a bad way, just different. Back story with unique experiences. Different is good. I'm different. We're different. When you try to make a "white lie" sex-based policy however, with no tangible threshold other than "because I say so", trouble will follow and already has. Good policy is supposed to require considerable thought. People seem to forget that. Anybody pretending that this is easy and won't involve compromise is lying or delusional; the goal should be to shut out the radicals and make reasonable accommodations.

Where else have we gone wrong?

Well, there's a very good case to be made for LGB+T being ill-conceived from the outset; I get it...but I don't get it.

The bar and criteria for some degree of medical intervention is far too low; many of us gay, lesbian and bisexual people without gender dysphoria would actually qualify enough to be able to lie about the remainder. This actually happens. Peer pressure can be a toxic old fucker; you can see 80 fold increases of baseline "trans" amongst peer groups in schools. Statistically speaking, that's almost impossible.

Even in the event of LGBT becoming a thing, we still should have insisted on separate support spaces. To me that's clear as day, and now you know why.

Basic civics. I'm noticing increased numbers of "activists" that border on being outright feral. Their parents have a lot to answer for, as do their schools and universities.

And finally, in the overarching sense, we're leaning far too hard politically and medically into areas where we know shockingly little.