A question for the community.

submitted by [deleted] from self.GenderCritical

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[–]NeedMoreCoffee 17 insightful - 2 fun17 insightful - 1 fun18 insightful - 2 fun -  (50 children)

The reason ive been against changing your sex on id from the start. Those idiots don't tell people who they are and shit like this happens

https://eu.usatoday.com/story/news/health/2019/05/16/pregnant-transgender-man-births-stillborn-baby-hospital-missed-labor-signs/3692201002/

All trans but especially the TIFs have serious increased risk of heart failure and strokes. There is going to be a lot of unnecessary deaths from transpeople soon. Then they can all whine how medicine is lacking for transpeople while they all signed wavers and were told that this shit is experimental and they decided to change sex on their ID.

[–]RationalNeutral 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (49 children)

Those idiots don't tell people who they are and shit like this happens

Because of transgender broken arm syndrome... There have been literal reports of people coming in with a broken arm, and their doctor wants to do mental gymnastics to blame HRT.

[–]NeedMoreCoffee 19 insightful - 3 fun19 insightful - 2 fun20 insightful - 3 fun -  (16 children)

Doctors are there to do their fucking job. If a young person comes in with a broken arm and they are on medication that might affect bone strenght they will do follow ups. I had that happen and i'm not trans.

EVERY SINGLE PERSON WITH CHRONIC HEALTH ISSUES OR WHO ARE ON MEDICATIONS HAVE TO DO THE WHOLE MEDICAL HISTORY ALL THE DAMN TIME. BECAUSE ITS A DOCTORS JOB TO MAKE SURE YOU ARENT GOING TO DROP DEAD NEXT WEEK FROM SOME PREVENTABLE CONDITION.

You lot don't even understand basic biology most of the time so how about you let the doctor you went to see do their job without being an entitled brat. And just cause some moron at pink news made up some word salad "trans broken arm syndrome" to whine about it doesn't mean it's a thing. That is not even what syndrome means stop butchering the bloody language. Stop making up words. Stop appropriating illnesses.

If they take care of trans like they would any other patient you lot take issue. If they treat you special you lot take issue. If they don't treat you you lot take issue. Make up your damn minds what you want.

No one needs to deal with that shit, especially not during a bloody pandemic. Seriously.

[–]RationalNeutral 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (15 children)

If a young person comes in with a broken arm and they are on medication that might affect bone strenght they will do follow ups. I had that happen and i'm not trans.

Great, the fundamental problem is that HRT strengthens bones: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/28370342/

You lot don't even understand basic biology most of the time

Well, since HRT is often made difficult to access for many transgender people. A lot of transgender people have to study the intricacies of how hormones are processed in the body so that they can do the appropriate calculations to dose their estrogen (or testosterone) correctly.

Which, in order to accomplish that, involves a more profound understanding of biology that makes it abundantly clear that on a biochemical level men and women have more in common than they differ.

Again, if men and women were so dramatically different as you claim, they would need a men-only vaccine and a women-only vaccine for the covid virus, now wouldn't they?

If they take care of trans like they would any other patient you lot take issue. If they treat you special you lot take issue. If they don't treat you you lot take issue. Make up your damn minds what you want.

Have you ever considered that the transgender population is full of individuals who all have their own separate opinions? There is no transgender hive mind... for that matter since you are keen to label transgender ideology a cult... wouldn't this be evidence that instead of following a singular doctrine, like a cult, the transgender population is allowed to have their own independent thoughts?

No one needs to deal with that shit, especially not during a bloody pandemic. Seriously.

Well, the irony of the situation is that until trump and his supporters explicitly went out of their way to bring transgender care to the forefront of everyone's minds... nobody was dealing with it. Ironically, it is because of other's visceral hatred of us (including members of this sub) that the rest of society has looked at your ilk's actions in horror and decide to rally in support of us.

Good job, you played yourself.

[–][deleted] 14 insightful - 2 fun14 insightful - 1 fun15 insightful - 2 fun -  (7 children)

Ok, you claim that you came here to inform yourself of gender critical views. That's not what's going on. You've made every attempt possible to do everything EXCEPT for sit and listen.

This is NOT a debate sub. This is NOT a place where you should look for sympathy for causes. You are NOT providing useful information, in fact-- you've basically just pulled the same meme bullshit of using suicide as a means of threatening your way into our spaces after you went to a singular shitty therapist. I don't know how much I buy into the bullshit of not meeting the DSM-5 criteria for depression, because that's not difficult criteria to meet. Your first line of actual medicine treatment was estrogen, instead of looking at any other reasonable option. And you know what? Your excited statement over growing breasts was frankly extremely fucking disturbing, thanks for that.

You would be welcomed with open arms at the debate sub, where you can post pseudoscience and look for validation until your heart's content.

[–]MarkTwainiac 4 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 2 fun -  (2 children)

Both estrogen and testosterone build bone mass and density in puberty and adolescence - the key time of life when we develop bone strength - and one or the other is required to maintain bone strength later in life in both sexes. However, it's important to keep in mind that even amongst trans people taking cross-sex hormones, males will generally have higher bone mass and density than females if they went through the puberty of adolescence. I say generally because it appears that in adolescent puberty females' pelvic bones become stronger than males'.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/15746999/

https://www.verywellhealth.com/bone-health-gender-5083699

Today, a growing number of trans-identified young people of both sexes were put on puberty blockers at or before Tanner Stage II, and as a result many will not have developed normal bone mineralization, length, mass & strength during the puberty of adolescence. Only if they started taking cross-sex hormones as well at a very early age (8-9 for females, 10-11 for males) will they have had a chance to build bones in the the normal range. Although here again, significant sex differences seem to come into play.

For example, the data released by the Tavistock GIDS in the UK about the kids it has put on puberty blockers showed that females whose puberty was blocked ended up with less long bone growth- and thus were shorter in height - than would have been the case had they gone through puberty. Similarly, because girls & boys go through their bone growth spurts at different stages of puberty - for girls it's at the start, for boys it's much later - and coz of the role that sex hormones play in fusing the long bones and thus stopping them from growth, it looks like some boys who've had their puberty blocked will be taller than average. Which is consistent with what happened with the castrati.

Yet even in the case of puberty-blocked kids who were put on CSH early, the males will still be ahead of females in terms of bone development because of the puberty of infancy - when male babies' T rises to adolescent pubertal levels and female babies E rises as well but not to a correspondingly high degree.

[–]RationalNeutral 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I don't see how any of this information is relevant to a transgender person who transitioned post-puberty, which for the time being consists of the majority of that population.

[–]MarkTwainiac 7 insightful - 2 fun7 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

You made a point that taking cross-sex hormones "strengthen bones" in "transgender people." In response, I posted information fleshing out the situation, and speaking directly to the issue of bone health issues in a specific subgroup of the transgender population, namely all the young people of both sexes who since the mid-late 1990s have been put on drugs like Lupron to stop puberty in an effort to make it easier for them to better mimic the appearance of the opposite sex later on. This is a part of the "transgender community" that has grown enormously in the current century, and is continuing to grow as I write this.

In turn, all you can say is

I don't see how any of this information is relevant to a transgender person who transitioned post-puberty, which for the time being consists of the majority of that population.

Wow, the solipsism. You seem to think the convo here is all about you, and only information that is personally relevant to you is worth posting & reading.

In another post, you told me that I must have "contempt" and "hatred of trangender people" in general because you've decided I have "a greater overarching hatred of men as a whole." But now you say you're the one who doesn't give a crap about all the trans-identified minors who've been put on the "Dutch protocol" that TRAs and the vocal community of older TIMs like you around the world have been demanding become standard for kids with "gender dysphoria" as young as age 8. Coz what happens to them isn't directly "relevant to a transgender person" in your exact circumstances and age group.

Meanwhile, on this thread you also implied that simply because of when you happened to be born, you are endowed with far more empathy than anyone of any previous generations has ever experienced or displayed. Well, you sure could've fooled me.

[–]MarkTwainiac 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (3 children)

A lot of transgender people have to study the intricacies of how hormones are processed in the body so that they can do the appropriate calculations to dose their estrogen (or testosterone) correctly.

Which, in order to accomplish that, involves a more profound understanding of biology

LOL. Evidence please.

[–]RationalNeutral 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

It's called DIY HRT, if transgender people are prevented access to doctors to guide their HRT, most will just take matters into their own hands. Find their own source of estrogens or testosterone and transition without medical assistance.

Similar to how, when abortion is made illegal, women will take matters into their own hands to abort children.

[–]MarkTwainiac 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I grew up in the US before abortion was legal, and know/knew women who had to "take matters into their own hands." I've travelled to countries where abortion is illegal, and have known many women who came from such countries and emigrated to Europe, the UK or North America. Many have had hair-raising "DIY experiences. But I've never, ever heard any of them claim that getting, or performing, an ad hoc abortion has equipped them or anyone else with or

involves a more profound understanding of biology

Than, say, health care professionals and people who've actually studied biology, medicine, reproductive health, pre-natal development, sex differences, etc and/or who've kept abreast of the ongoing findings in these areas.

[–]RationalNeutral 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

The association with DIY abortions is to give you a more relatable situation where "When the need is great enough, people will take matters into their own hands, doctor or not." It is not meant to have anything to do with the relative knowledge necessary to carry out each DIY task.

Transgender HRT is not a thoroughly researched area of medicine. As such, it does not take a lot to reach a point where someone is on-par with or more advanced in understanding than an endocrinologist. There have been a few endocrinologists & family doctors who offer HRT that either point to or even praise information shared amongst the transgender community as more qualitative than what is available in formal medical circles.

For the sake of understanding where this claim of knowledge greater than health care professionals comes from, suspend your own personal views on gender identity theory for a moment. I'm trying to highlight the pragmatics of the situation in which ideology might make overly complicated to explain.

To be clear that's not a criticism of formal medicine though. The symptoms of dysphoria being as intense as they are, provide the transgender community a sense of urgency and/or willingness to experiment in a way that most medical ethics boards probably would not be willing to approve in a formal setting. As such more formal medicine is lagging behind.

Formal medical circles have nothing to gain from urgency and everything to lose. Transgender people have everything to gain and nothing to lose from urgent and more exploratory experimentation. If we do nothing, we'll eventually succumb to a particularly bad bout of dysphoria and die by our own hands. If we attempt something and fuck up, usually that outcome will be a happier existence than death. If we get it right then, great, we get to have the same baseline of content living as a cis-gendered individual (at least if we ignore potential discrimination).

This is why my original comment on this thread was "We need more research to know anything useful." Currently, the field of knowledge on transgender care is so shallow that it does not take a whole lot to get to a level that is on par with medical professionals.

[–]whateverneverpine 7 insightful - 3 fun7 insightful - 2 fun8 insightful - 3 fun -  (2 children)

Maybe massive cross-sex hormone ingestion DID play a role in broken arm. Also, is that really a trend, or fantasy of TIMs?

[–]RationalNeutral 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

On the one hand: If it did, explain the mechanism by which it does play a role. If it weren't a trend, would TIMs have a reason to hide that information in the first place?

[–]whateverneverpine 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

LOL self-reports by TIMs.

[–]absoluteblasphemy 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (26 children)

Source, though? I kinda doubt medical professionals would blame a broken arm on HRT BUT there might actually be something to that since changing dominant sex hormones actually affects bone density, with cross sex hormones leading to decreased bone health in some individuals.

So tbh, even if you’re telling the truth, doctors might know something we don’t. Cross sex hormone “therapy” is extremely dangerous, we don’t need anymore people underplaying it’s risks.

[–][deleted] 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

I was about to say bone density is absolutely affected by HRT. I get that it's just a figure of speech but it's accidentally very ironic.

[–]RationalNeutral 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

Yes, bone density increases from HRT, so ironically... we're less likely to break our bones.

Source: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/28370342/

[–]MarkTwainiac 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

Even that study that you choose to cite calls it CHT - cross-sex hormone therapy - not HRT.

As I've pointed out other times, HRT stands for hormone-replacement therapy, meaning it's meant to replace the hormones the human body makes naturally; it's not hormones therapy meant to mimic some of the hormones naturally made by persons of the opposite sex.

Traditionally the acronym "HRT" and the phrase "hormone replacement therapy" has specifically meant sex-hormone replacement therapy to treat women in/after menopause or oophorectomy. When hormones such as insulin, thyroid hormone, oxytocin/pitocin, adrenalin or hepcidin are administered or prescribed, it's not called "HRT."

Please when speaking of the hormones taken by trans people use the terms and acronyms that are appropriate: CHT or CSH or THT. Like the words women and female, HRT is taken already and has a long-established meaning very different to the one you're trying to shoehorn into it.

[–]RationalNeutral 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

This is, again, not relevant information. Your response is basically "Oh shit, we're wrong, quick look over there, we take issue on that."

[–]MarkTwainiac 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

This is, again, not relevant information. Your response is basically "Oh shit, we're wrong, quick look over there, we take issue on that."

You seem to have appointed yourself arbiter of what's "relevant information." And you're the one who is deflecting and distracting here. I am simply pointing out that even in the literature you yourself cite and link to, the hormone regimens that trans people take are not called "HRT." They're called CHT, CSH or THT. Women are sick of TIMs constantly appropriating the words and terms for our sex and specific to female health and medical therapies designed & meant exclusively for female people. Invent and use your own terms. The ones you keep stealing are already taken!

I didn't address the rest of that comment coz it's just a repeat of a statement & link you posted before that I've already addressed.

[–]RationalNeutral 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I understood your point, and that you are requesting that I pick some acronym other than HRT, it's just a completely separate issue to the claim that "HRT does affect bone density therefore it may actually cause a broken bone." when the only effect is an increase in bone density that would prevent a broken bone.

[–]MarkTwainiac 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

But I never made a claim that the kind of specific kind of THT that adults like you take after you've been through puberty causes bone density issues that might result in broken bones. And I would never make such a claim, coz it's not true.

I simply pointed out that that many of today's trans population have been on a very different treatment path, one which has meant a different THT regimen administered at a different stage in life with different effects. As a result, the impact on and implications for their bone development is different to yours. Much different to yours because the most important stage in life for building bone mass, strength and mineralization is puberty, which leaves whose who are taking or have taken puberty blocking meds as part of their THT incredibly vulnerable to a host of issues such as early-onset osteoporosis, bone fractures and severe dental problems, including their teeth falling out coz their jaws grow so weak.

But rather than take any of this info on board and show an ounce of concern for members of your own community who might be in worse straits than you, you responded

I don't see how any of this information is relevant to a transgender person who transitioned post-puberty, which for the time being consists of the majority of that population.

As if the only people who matter here are adult TIMs like you who started taking CSH in adulthood!

BTW, as a matter of fact, TIMs like you do not necessarily constitute "the majority of" the trans population - not any more. Coz thousands of kids have been transed this century, and more are being seen each day in all the youth gender clinics that have proliferated in recent years, particularly in the USA - where there are now at least 300 pediatric gender clinics. You and other TIMs who've started THT in adulthood only constitute the particular part of the trans population that you want see, that you choose to see, and that you are capable of seeing. But you're not necessarily biggest cohort as you seem to think.

I and other posters here are concerned about the physical and emotional harms children and very young adults of both sexes are suffering because of the THT they are being put on at crucial stages in their development, and the misinformation they are being fed. And your response in essence is, "But I'm all right, Jack. And since I and others just like me are the only ones who count, information that isn't about us directly isn't relevant."

Reminds me of a hit song from 1988 about a man who's been "the victim of selfish kind of love" and is in the habit of turning his collar up at the kids he sees on the street "pretending not to see their needs." Fittingly, it's called The Man in The Mirror https://youtu.be/Zqe5NP86OCc

[–]RationalNeutral 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (17 children)

If the doctors do know something, then it is part of their job to explain it on a level that the patient understands. Then, it is the patient's responsibility to take in that information and decide what they want to do with their body.

If a different dominant sex hormone affects bone density, wouldn't this suggest treating the patient as though they are most similar to the sex that has that dominant sex hormone?

[–]absoluteblasphemy 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (16 children)

No because trans IDd people are people on medication. Medication which is unnecessary and harmful to their health. Your argument is essentially something like “well I really like taking meth so if the doctors could just accept that and treat me like something who just naturally has all this methamphetamine in their body that would be great.” Extreme example, the same thing though.

The argument you’re making here is the exact problem OP is talking about, it is extremely wishful thinking to suggest that a medical professional treat a male on spiro and estradiol the same as a woman. Not only is it wishful thinking but it’s also stupid because biology doesn’t move around for feewlings.

[–]RationalNeutral 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (15 children)

I chose my words carefully:

most similar to the sex that has that dominant sex hormone

Does not mean

the same as a woman

As to the meth addict comparison...

Doctors do actually have to take into account how much methamphetamine is in a patient's body though? Failure to do so could have some serious interactions between medicines. This includes dosing rates for anesthesia among other things.

Meanwhile, from my personal experiences with HRT, my mental facilities on testosterone had a lot of negative mental health effects most notably a complete lack of emotion. Whereas on estrogen those mental health effects are completely gone, I experience a wide range of emotionality now and I absolutely love it. I can't ignore this experience and the profoundly positive effects it has had on my life so far.

Although I am excited to be growing breasts with estrogen, I did very literally have a thought along the lines of "It's unfortunate this medicine will cause these body changes that will draw a lot of negative discrimination."

My personal thing is the mental health benefits from this outweigh all the negatives, feminization is just a side-effect, although a happy side-effect, a side-effect none-the-less.

[–]absoluteblasphemy 9 insightful - 2 fun9 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 2 fun -  (14 children)

You’re knit picking, we both know that what you mean. And what you mean is that you want doctors to treat men on cross sex hormones like women, which is not possible because that’s not how medicine works.

As one heart to another I am so sorry that you have been taken in and brainwashed by this ideology. I truly am so sorry for you and I will keep you in my prayers that God might find a way to reach you.

Any life that you have as an imitation of a woman will be just that; an imitation. You might be enamoured with the affects of estrogen now because hormones are very powerful, but you are on a drug just like the fictional meth addict.

Transition can take you a long way, it can give you a lot mentally and physically but you do it at great expense. You do it by making yourself less than what you are, by cutting off parts and changing the shell. But you will always know what you are, even if people look and see a woman there will always be this feeling inside of you. That you are invisible, that no one sees the truth, because that is what transition truly does to people. I’ve seen it happen.

If anything I have said here has reached you; run. Run away from the community that has lied to you, told you to drug and cut your body. Run as far away as you can. Find people who will live your real truth, not this awful destructive narrative. You can get out, if you want to.

[–]RationalNeutral 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (13 children)

I'm not knit-picking, that is literally what I wrote and meant. It is evidenced by the fact that is exactly what I wrote and people have a history of pointing out just how precise in my word choice I am.

I'm also literally here to fact-check that community by giving the opposing side an opportunity to voice their opinions.

As for your comments on god... I present lil-dicky

Transition can take you a long way, it can give you a lot mentally and physically but you do it at great expense.

Well, considering that I would have killed myself using inert gas asphyxiation in August, 2020 if not for pursuing transition, I feel like I'm in a bonus round of life. So, I mean, whatever risks exist are better than death.

[–][deleted] 4 insightful - 3 fun4 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 3 fun -  (6 children)

So what were you being treated with previous to taking estrogen?

[–]RationalNeutral 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Nothing. I first questioned when I was 14, parents abused me until I agreed to repress being transgender. Seeing that abuse, I decided to give the white cis-gendered male privileged experience the best go of it I could. I studied abroad to even see how a different culture would make my idiosyncrasies manifest differently so I could have a more objective understanding of myself. My mental health improved while I was abroad, but only because I was unaware of the fact that the entire time I was indulging in feminine expressions of that culture that just appealed to me naturally. Returning to a culture I knew and having to conform to male presentation steadily eroded away those mental health improvements.

Decided to try working in that foreign country again to see if there was something about that culture, but as I now understood the difference between masculine and feminine aspects of that culture, the absence of feminine expressions did not yield the same dramatic improvement in mental health that my study abroad experience yielded.

Not to mention, I had my dream job.

There literally is no other explanation for these mental health effects other than being transgender as I had gone through the arduous process of eliminating all other possible explanations one by one for 14 years. Then when I started estrogen the negative mental effects just evaporated away almost instantaneously. It still gradually continues to get better from here, but I can't ignore all the data accumulated so far.

[–]absoluteblasphemy 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

I really just am so heartbroken for you. You can’t get out of a cult unless you see it for what it is, and to do that you have to be willing to accept reality. I ask God for strength because I believe he is the only thing powerful enough to defeat evil. I realise people don’t appreciate that but I’m religious anyway, so yeah. The power of Christ compels thee.

Just follow me for a second if you can. If you realised that you were a man what would that do to you? What would that mean for you? Like really think about it, I understand why I can say these things that it just bounces right off; it’s a self defence mechanism. If you saw the truth it well, that’s a real reckoning. It’s a real horrorshow, I know that’s why I left the trans community.

I myself was also in this community also suicidal and I know that transition seems like a solution, but it’s not, it’s just a distraction. And like I said hormones are very powerful, but what are you going to do when that glow wears off and all you have are your fantasies and an infertile body that is repulsive to 99% of people?

I’m not saying this out of cruelty, I am very genuine when I say that I care about you, I care about every person that identifies as trans because you have all been lied to and you are all being hurt.

You can leave and you can have a normal life, assuming you haven’t inverted your penis (please never do that to yourself by the way, I’ve seen a neo-vag in real life and it is grotesque) but it’s very hard and you will have to be very brave.

[–][deleted] 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

If you smoke it does a lot of crap to your body. Doctors are going to look at smoking first as the answer to every problem. Yes that does mean there are other unrelated causes of disease that may be missed or obscured. No that does not mean you should hide that you smoke from your doctor. You're the one doing mental gymnastics to avoid the biological reality of what it means to experiment on your body.

[–]RationalNeutral 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

As long as a doctor has clear logic to explain how they are arriving at the conclusion that a symptom is resulting from HRT, I don't have an issue with them looking at that first. However, if someone has a chronic disease before starting HRT, HRT isn't going to be the sudden cause of that chronic disease years later.

Likewise, if they have a clear explanation of how HRT causes the symptom at hand, I have no issue with that. It's only when HRT is being used as a lazy excuse to avoid doing proper diagnostic work, and it is clear that it completely unrelated that I have an issue with it.