A question for the community.

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[–]absoluteblasphemy 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (26 children)

Source, though? I kinda doubt medical professionals would blame a broken arm on HRT BUT there might actually be something to that since changing dominant sex hormones actually affects bone density, with cross sex hormones leading to decreased bone health in some individuals.

So tbh, even if you’re telling the truth, doctors might know something we don’t. Cross sex hormone “therapy” is extremely dangerous, we don’t need anymore people underplaying it’s risks.

[–][deleted] 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

I was about to say bone density is absolutely affected by HRT. I get that it's just a figure of speech but it's accidentally very ironic.

[–]RationalNeutral 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

Yes, bone density increases from HRT, so ironically... we're less likely to break our bones.

Source: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/28370342/

[–]MarkTwainiac 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

Even that study that you choose to cite calls it CHT - cross-sex hormone therapy - not HRT.

As I've pointed out other times, HRT stands for hormone-replacement therapy, meaning it's meant to replace the hormones the human body makes naturally; it's not hormones therapy meant to mimic some of the hormones naturally made by persons of the opposite sex.

Traditionally the acronym "HRT" and the phrase "hormone replacement therapy" has specifically meant sex-hormone replacement therapy to treat women in/after menopause or oophorectomy. When hormones such as insulin, thyroid hormone, oxytocin/pitocin, adrenalin or hepcidin are administered or prescribed, it's not called "HRT."

Please when speaking of the hormones taken by trans people use the terms and acronyms that are appropriate: CHT or CSH or THT. Like the words women and female, HRT is taken already and has a long-established meaning very different to the one you're trying to shoehorn into it.

[–]RationalNeutral 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

This is, again, not relevant information. Your response is basically "Oh shit, we're wrong, quick look over there, we take issue on that."

[–]MarkTwainiac 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

This is, again, not relevant information. Your response is basically "Oh shit, we're wrong, quick look over there, we take issue on that."

You seem to have appointed yourself arbiter of what's "relevant information." And you're the one who is deflecting and distracting here. I am simply pointing out that even in the literature you yourself cite and link to, the hormone regimens that trans people take are not called "HRT." They're called CHT, CSH or THT. Women are sick of TIMs constantly appropriating the words and terms for our sex and specific to female health and medical therapies designed & meant exclusively for female people. Invent and use your own terms. The ones you keep stealing are already taken!

I didn't address the rest of that comment coz it's just a repeat of a statement & link you posted before that I've already addressed.

[–]RationalNeutral 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I understood your point, and that you are requesting that I pick some acronym other than HRT, it's just a completely separate issue to the claim that "HRT does affect bone density therefore it may actually cause a broken bone." when the only effect is an increase in bone density that would prevent a broken bone.

[–]MarkTwainiac 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

But I never made a claim that the kind of specific kind of THT that adults like you take after you've been through puberty causes bone density issues that might result in broken bones. And I would never make such a claim, coz it's not true.

I simply pointed out that that many of today's trans population have been on a very different treatment path, one which has meant a different THT regimen administered at a different stage in life with different effects. As a result, the impact on and implications for their bone development is different to yours. Much different to yours because the most important stage in life for building bone mass, strength and mineralization is puberty, which leaves whose who are taking or have taken puberty blocking meds as part of their THT incredibly vulnerable to a host of issues such as early-onset osteoporosis, bone fractures and severe dental problems, including their teeth falling out coz their jaws grow so weak.

But rather than take any of this info on board and show an ounce of concern for members of your own community who might be in worse straits than you, you responded

I don't see how any of this information is relevant to a transgender person who transitioned post-puberty, which for the time being consists of the majority of that population.

As if the only people who matter here are adult TIMs like you who started taking CSH in adulthood!

BTW, as a matter of fact, TIMs like you do not necessarily constitute "the majority of" the trans population - not any more. Coz thousands of kids have been transed this century, and more are being seen each day in all the youth gender clinics that have proliferated in recent years, particularly in the USA - where there are now at least 300 pediatric gender clinics. You and other TIMs who've started THT in adulthood only constitute the particular part of the trans population that you want see, that you choose to see, and that you are capable of seeing. But you're not necessarily biggest cohort as you seem to think.

I and other posters here are concerned about the physical and emotional harms children and very young adults of both sexes are suffering because of the THT they are being put on at crucial stages in their development, and the misinformation they are being fed. And your response in essence is, "But I'm all right, Jack. And since I and others just like me are the only ones who count, information that isn't about us directly isn't relevant."

Reminds me of a hit song from 1988 about a man who's been "the victim of selfish kind of love" and is in the habit of turning his collar up at the kids he sees on the street "pretending not to see their needs." Fittingly, it's called The Man in The Mirror https://youtu.be/Zqe5NP86OCc

[–]RationalNeutral 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Most transgender youth I have met have been in the UK and unable to access HRT due to the waitlist being too long that by the time they are able to start HRT they are adults. So from those experiences, it gave me the impression that transgender youth are still an uncommon thing. In addition to the abuse, I faced when I attempted to come out the first time when 14 sort of reinforces the notion that it is uncommon (if it is actually more common this just inspires a great deal of frustration with the lies I was told then).

Additionally, out of an abundance of caution, I typically refer all transgender youth who reach out to me to professional non-profits (like mermaid UK for example). The stigmatization of transgender adults typically means that it is too legally risky for me to offer any assistance to transgender youth anyway. Hence, I don't spend a lot of time understanding / supporting the transgender youth population because my only recourse is to refer them to other resources. It is far easier to resist the temptation to offer assistance when you remain willfully ignorant on their situation.

If I were in a situation where it was allowable for me to offer that support to transgender youth, then absolutely would love to learn the intricacies of their situation and offer that assistance. At the same time though, there was a link on LGBdroptheT where even I am like "What the fuck did you expect?" with regard to a particular transgender person's actions. Depending on the circumstance, I might even expect a bonafide cisgender woman to be met with hostility if they behaved in the same manner as the person playing victimhood was in that thread. So... yeah, I do want to offer more in the way of help for transgender youth, but the current legal climate makes that a solid no.

[–]RationalNeutral 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (17 children)

If the doctors do know something, then it is part of their job to explain it on a level that the patient understands. Then, it is the patient's responsibility to take in that information and decide what they want to do with their body.

If a different dominant sex hormone affects bone density, wouldn't this suggest treating the patient as though they are most similar to the sex that has that dominant sex hormone?

[–]absoluteblasphemy 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (16 children)

No because trans IDd people are people on medication. Medication which is unnecessary and harmful to their health. Your argument is essentially something like “well I really like taking meth so if the doctors could just accept that and treat me like something who just naturally has all this methamphetamine in their body that would be great.” Extreme example, the same thing though.

The argument you’re making here is the exact problem OP is talking about, it is extremely wishful thinking to suggest that a medical professional treat a male on spiro and estradiol the same as a woman. Not only is it wishful thinking but it’s also stupid because biology doesn’t move around for feewlings.

[–]RationalNeutral 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (15 children)

I chose my words carefully:

most similar to the sex that has that dominant sex hormone

Does not mean

the same as a woman

As to the meth addict comparison...

Doctors do actually have to take into account how much methamphetamine is in a patient's body though? Failure to do so could have some serious interactions between medicines. This includes dosing rates for anesthesia among other things.

Meanwhile, from my personal experiences with HRT, my mental facilities on testosterone had a lot of negative mental health effects most notably a complete lack of emotion. Whereas on estrogen those mental health effects are completely gone, I experience a wide range of emotionality now and I absolutely love it. I can't ignore this experience and the profoundly positive effects it has had on my life so far.

Although I am excited to be growing breasts with estrogen, I did very literally have a thought along the lines of "It's unfortunate this medicine will cause these body changes that will draw a lot of negative discrimination."

My personal thing is the mental health benefits from this outweigh all the negatives, feminization is just a side-effect, although a happy side-effect, a side-effect none-the-less.

[–]absoluteblasphemy 9 insightful - 2 fun9 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 2 fun -  (14 children)

You’re knit picking, we both know that what you mean. And what you mean is that you want doctors to treat men on cross sex hormones like women, which is not possible because that’s not how medicine works.

As one heart to another I am so sorry that you have been taken in and brainwashed by this ideology. I truly am so sorry for you and I will keep you in my prayers that God might find a way to reach you.

Any life that you have as an imitation of a woman will be just that; an imitation. You might be enamoured with the affects of estrogen now because hormones are very powerful, but you are on a drug just like the fictional meth addict.

Transition can take you a long way, it can give you a lot mentally and physically but you do it at great expense. You do it by making yourself less than what you are, by cutting off parts and changing the shell. But you will always know what you are, even if people look and see a woman there will always be this feeling inside of you. That you are invisible, that no one sees the truth, because that is what transition truly does to people. I’ve seen it happen.

If anything I have said here has reached you; run. Run away from the community that has lied to you, told you to drug and cut your body. Run as far away as you can. Find people who will live your real truth, not this awful destructive narrative. You can get out, if you want to.

[–]RationalNeutral 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (13 children)

I'm not knit-picking, that is literally what I wrote and meant. It is evidenced by the fact that is exactly what I wrote and people have a history of pointing out just how precise in my word choice I am.

I'm also literally here to fact-check that community by giving the opposing side an opportunity to voice their opinions.

As for your comments on god... I present lil-dicky

Transition can take you a long way, it can give you a lot mentally and physically but you do it at great expense.

Well, considering that I would have killed myself using inert gas asphyxiation in August, 2020 if not for pursuing transition, I feel like I'm in a bonus round of life. So, I mean, whatever risks exist are better than death.

[–][deleted] 4 insightful - 3 fun4 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 3 fun -  (6 children)

So what were you being treated with previous to taking estrogen?

[–]RationalNeutral 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Nothing. I first questioned when I was 14, parents abused me until I agreed to repress being transgender. Seeing that abuse, I decided to give the white cis-gendered male privileged experience the best go of it I could. I studied abroad to even see how a different culture would make my idiosyncrasies manifest differently so I could have a more objective understanding of myself. My mental health improved while I was abroad, but only because I was unaware of the fact that the entire time I was indulging in feminine expressions of that culture that just appealed to me naturally. Returning to a culture I knew and having to conform to male presentation steadily eroded away those mental health improvements.

Decided to try working in that foreign country again to see if there was something about that culture, but as I now understood the difference between masculine and feminine aspects of that culture, the absence of feminine expressions did not yield the same dramatic improvement in mental health that my study abroad experience yielded.

Not to mention, I had my dream job.

There literally is no other explanation for these mental health effects other than being transgender as I had gone through the arduous process of eliminating all other possible explanations one by one for 14 years. Then when I started estrogen the negative mental effects just evaporated away almost instantaneously. It still gradually continues to get better from here, but I can't ignore all the data accumulated so far.

[–][deleted] 4 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

And your parents never took you to a provider during your time at home to evaluate your mental health?

[–]RationalNeutral 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

That is correct, on the one hand my mom believed the entire psychology profession was lacking ethics and that I would be treated like a lab rat.

On the other hand, my parents have a history of absolutely refusing to seek professional help at all costs:

I once had an ingrown toe-nail that they preferred to go at my foot with a knife and no anesthetic (maybe some hydrogen peroxide) and had the audacity to look at me as insane when I screamed in pain and ask "What are you screaming about? The neighbors will hear." Basically, the embarrassment of being heard was of greater concern than my well being as they continued to go at my toe with a knife.

This eventually required surgery from a specialist foot doctor. Partially because their own reluctance to seek help made the problem worse.

Prior to seeking out estrogen:

I first hired a therapist to discuss a bunch of workplace experiences and analyze the psychology of working in a foreign culture. Then worked with that therapist to present my findings to the company as a matter of trying to improve the corporate culture. I was at the point of "You work on improving this about your company or please fire me, which I know will take you months to legally establish so be prepared for the eventuality that I leave." They did not see any merit in improving the corporate culture so the foregone conclusion was I would part ways which we did roughly half a year later due to strict labor laws for that country.

After pitching that to the company, I and the therapist discussed the anhedonia and were exploring possible explanations. Nothing was really sticking or really fitting any of the DSM-5 criteria for various personality disorders or other possible explanations. Then the thought occurred to me to ask about being transgender and how my parents' abuse lead to me repressing it extremely deeply which along with it resulted in repressing my emotions. The experiences described did fit the DSM-5 criteria for gender dysphoria and then we started to explore with what crossdressing I could, changing pronouns, using virtual reality to have a gender-identity confirming body, and so forth. The evidence continues to accumulate in favor of being transgender despite us continually challenging the theory with new information as it manifests in life. After roughly half a year of testing that theory out, I went to a local clinic to get estrogen injections and the effects were profoundly positive. For the first couple of hours after the shot (while the estrogen was still making way into the blood stream) I was profoundly disappointed thinking that, oh, I guess this wasn't the answer after all... then when the estrogen hit the blood-brain barrier a lot of negative mental health symptoms just melted away. Some of which I had gotten so used to that I didn't know they even were an issue and was as happy as can be. Further injections don't result in as profound of a reaction, but the overall average is a lot happier and continues to get happier as time goes on.

[–]absoluteblasphemy 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

I really just am so heartbroken for you. You can’t get out of a cult unless you see it for what it is, and to do that you have to be willing to accept reality. I ask God for strength because I believe he is the only thing powerful enough to defeat evil. I realise people don’t appreciate that but I’m religious anyway, so yeah. The power of Christ compels thee.

Just follow me for a second if you can. If you realised that you were a man what would that do to you? What would that mean for you? Like really think about it, I understand why I can say these things that it just bounces right off; it’s a self defence mechanism. If you saw the truth it well, that’s a real reckoning. It’s a real horrorshow, I know that’s why I left the trans community.

I myself was also in this community also suicidal and I know that transition seems like a solution, but it’s not, it’s just a distraction. And like I said hormones are very powerful, but what are you going to do when that glow wears off and all you have are your fantasies and an infertile body that is repulsive to 99% of people?

I’m not saying this out of cruelty, I am very genuine when I say that I care about you, I care about every person that identifies as trans because you have all been lied to and you are all being hurt.

You can leave and you can have a normal life, assuming you haven’t inverted your penis (please never do that to yourself by the way, I’ve seen a neo-vag in real life and it is grotesque) but it’s very hard and you will have to be very brave.