A question for the community.

submitted by [deleted] from self.GenderCritical

It was click-baity, and I'm sorry.

TRAs are actively doing everything possible to erase the fact that biological sex makes a massive difference on body physiology with transitioning. Unfortunately, this is including medical professionals. So I'm asking the question today: what the hell are TIMs and TIFs supposed to do in the instance of, say, a heart attack? Since symptoms typically differ by sex, but they might be registered as the opposite sex on official documents (if they go that far), is the medical staff responsible then for not being able to administer treatment correctly or look for particular symptoms?

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[–]NeedMoreCoffee 17 insightful - 2 fun17 insightful - 1 fun18 insightful - 2 fun -  (52 children)

The reason ive been against changing your sex on id from the start. Those idiots don't tell people who they are and shit like this happens

https://eu.usatoday.com/story/news/health/2019/05/16/pregnant-transgender-man-births-stillborn-baby-hospital-missed-labor-signs/3692201002/

All trans but especially the TIFs have serious increased risk of heart failure and strokes. There is going to be a lot of unnecessary deaths from transpeople soon. Then they can all whine how medicine is lacking for transpeople while they all signed wavers and were told that this shit is experimental and they decided to change sex on their ID.

[–]WildApples 7 insightful - 2 fun7 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

Wow. So if the medical staff acknowledge sex, they are transphobic and non-inclusive, but if they follow TRA advocacy and go by gender, they are showing implicit bias. They cannot win.

[–]NeedMoreCoffee 4 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Indeed they can't win. It's a mess.

[–]RationalNeutral 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (49 children)

Those idiots don't tell people who they are and shit like this happens

Because of transgender broken arm syndrome... There have been literal reports of people coming in with a broken arm, and their doctor wants to do mental gymnastics to blame HRT.

[–]NeedMoreCoffee 19 insightful - 3 fun19 insightful - 2 fun20 insightful - 3 fun -  (16 children)

Doctors are there to do their fucking job. If a young person comes in with a broken arm and they are on medication that might affect bone strenght they will do follow ups. I had that happen and i'm not trans.

EVERY SINGLE PERSON WITH CHRONIC HEALTH ISSUES OR WHO ARE ON MEDICATIONS HAVE TO DO THE WHOLE MEDICAL HISTORY ALL THE DAMN TIME. BECAUSE ITS A DOCTORS JOB TO MAKE SURE YOU ARENT GOING TO DROP DEAD NEXT WEEK FROM SOME PREVENTABLE CONDITION.

You lot don't even understand basic biology most of the time so how about you let the doctor you went to see do their job without being an entitled brat. And just cause some moron at pink news made up some word salad "trans broken arm syndrome" to whine about it doesn't mean it's a thing. That is not even what syndrome means stop butchering the bloody language. Stop making up words. Stop appropriating illnesses.

If they take care of trans like they would any other patient you lot take issue. If they treat you special you lot take issue. If they don't treat you you lot take issue. Make up your damn minds what you want.

No one needs to deal with that shit, especially not during a bloody pandemic. Seriously.

[–]RationalNeutral 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (15 children)

If a young person comes in with a broken arm and they are on medication that might affect bone strenght they will do follow ups. I had that happen and i'm not trans.

Great, the fundamental problem is that HRT strengthens bones: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/28370342/

You lot don't even understand basic biology most of the time

Well, since HRT is often made difficult to access for many transgender people. A lot of transgender people have to study the intricacies of how hormones are processed in the body so that they can do the appropriate calculations to dose their estrogen (or testosterone) correctly.

Which, in order to accomplish that, involves a more profound understanding of biology that makes it abundantly clear that on a biochemical level men and women have more in common than they differ.

Again, if men and women were so dramatically different as you claim, they would need a men-only vaccine and a women-only vaccine for the covid virus, now wouldn't they?

If they take care of trans like they would any other patient you lot take issue. If they treat you special you lot take issue. If they don't treat you you lot take issue. Make up your damn minds what you want.

Have you ever considered that the transgender population is full of individuals who all have their own separate opinions? There is no transgender hive mind... for that matter since you are keen to label transgender ideology a cult... wouldn't this be evidence that instead of following a singular doctrine, like a cult, the transgender population is allowed to have their own independent thoughts?

No one needs to deal with that shit, especially not during a bloody pandemic. Seriously.

Well, the irony of the situation is that until trump and his supporters explicitly went out of their way to bring transgender care to the forefront of everyone's minds... nobody was dealing with it. Ironically, it is because of other's visceral hatred of us (including members of this sub) that the rest of society has looked at your ilk's actions in horror and decide to rally in support of us.

Good job, you played yourself.

[–][deleted] 14 insightful - 2 fun14 insightful - 1 fun15 insightful - 2 fun -  (7 children)

Ok, you claim that you came here to inform yourself of gender critical views. That's not what's going on. You've made every attempt possible to do everything EXCEPT for sit and listen.

This is NOT a debate sub. This is NOT a place where you should look for sympathy for causes. You are NOT providing useful information, in fact-- you've basically just pulled the same meme bullshit of using suicide as a means of threatening your way into our spaces after you went to a singular shitty therapist. I don't know how much I buy into the bullshit of not meeting the DSM-5 criteria for depression, because that's not difficult criteria to meet. Your first line of actual medicine treatment was estrogen, instead of looking at any other reasonable option. And you know what? Your excited statement over growing breasts was frankly extremely fucking disturbing, thanks for that.

You would be welcomed with open arms at the debate sub, where you can post pseudoscience and look for validation until your heart's content.

[–]MarkTwainiac 4 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 2 fun -  (2 children)

Both estrogen and testosterone build bone mass and density in puberty and adolescence - the key time of life when we develop bone strength - and one or the other is required to maintain bone strength later in life in both sexes. However, it's important to keep in mind that even amongst trans people taking cross-sex hormones, males will generally have higher bone mass and density than females if they went through the puberty of adolescence. I say generally because it appears that in adolescent puberty females' pelvic bones become stronger than males'.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/15746999/

https://www.verywellhealth.com/bone-health-gender-5083699

Today, a growing number of trans-identified young people of both sexes were put on puberty blockers at or before Tanner Stage II, and as a result many will not have developed normal bone mineralization, length, mass & strength during the puberty of adolescence. Only if they started taking cross-sex hormones as well at a very early age (8-9 for females, 10-11 for males) will they have had a chance to build bones in the the normal range. Although here again, significant sex differences seem to come into play.

For example, the data released by the Tavistock GIDS in the UK about the kids it has put on puberty blockers showed that females whose puberty was blocked ended up with less long bone growth- and thus were shorter in height - than would have been the case had they gone through puberty. Similarly, because girls & boys go through their bone growth spurts at different stages of puberty - for girls it's at the start, for boys it's much later - and coz of the role that sex hormones play in fusing the long bones and thus stopping them from growth, it looks like some boys who've had their puberty blocked will be taller than average. Which is consistent with what happened with the castrati.

Yet even in the case of puberty-blocked kids who were put on CSH early, the males will still be ahead of females in terms of bone development because of the puberty of infancy - when male babies' T rises to adolescent pubertal levels and female babies E rises as well but not to a correspondingly high degree.

[–]RationalNeutral 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I don't see how any of this information is relevant to a transgender person who transitioned post-puberty, which for the time being consists of the majority of that population.

[–]MarkTwainiac 7 insightful - 2 fun7 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

You made a point that taking cross-sex hormones "strengthen bones" in "transgender people." In response, I posted information fleshing out the situation, and speaking directly to the issue of bone health issues in a specific subgroup of the transgender population, namely all the young people of both sexes who since the mid-late 1990s have been put on drugs like Lupron to stop puberty in an effort to make it easier for them to better mimic the appearance of the opposite sex later on. This is a part of the "transgender community" that has grown enormously in the current century, and is continuing to grow as I write this.

In turn, all you can say is

I don't see how any of this information is relevant to a transgender person who transitioned post-puberty, which for the time being consists of the majority of that population.

Wow, the solipsism. You seem to think the convo here is all about you, and only information that is personally relevant to you is worth posting & reading.

In another post, you told me that I must have "contempt" and "hatred of trangender people" in general because you've decided I have "a greater overarching hatred of men as a whole." But now you say you're the one who doesn't give a crap about all the trans-identified minors who've been put on the "Dutch protocol" that TRAs and the vocal community of older TIMs like you around the world have been demanding become standard for kids with "gender dysphoria" as young as age 8. Coz what happens to them isn't directly "relevant to a transgender person" in your exact circumstances and age group.

Meanwhile, on this thread you also implied that simply because of when you happened to be born, you are endowed with far more empathy than anyone of any previous generations has ever experienced or displayed. Well, you sure could've fooled me.

[–]MarkTwainiac 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (3 children)

A lot of transgender people have to study the intricacies of how hormones are processed in the body so that they can do the appropriate calculations to dose their estrogen (or testosterone) correctly.

Which, in order to accomplish that, involves a more profound understanding of biology

LOL. Evidence please.

[–]RationalNeutral 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

It's called DIY HRT, if transgender people are prevented access to doctors to guide their HRT, most will just take matters into their own hands. Find their own source of estrogens or testosterone and transition without medical assistance.

Similar to how, when abortion is made illegal, women will take matters into their own hands to abort children.

[–]MarkTwainiac 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I grew up in the US before abortion was legal, and know/knew women who had to "take matters into their own hands." I've travelled to countries where abortion is illegal, and have known many women who came from such countries and emigrated to Europe, the UK or North America. Many have had hair-raising "DIY experiences. But I've never, ever heard any of them claim that getting, or performing, an ad hoc abortion has equipped them or anyone else with or

involves a more profound understanding of biology

Than, say, health care professionals and people who've actually studied biology, medicine, reproductive health, pre-natal development, sex differences, etc and/or who've kept abreast of the ongoing findings in these areas.

[–]whateverneverpine 7 insightful - 3 fun7 insightful - 2 fun8 insightful - 3 fun -  (2 children)

Maybe massive cross-sex hormone ingestion DID play a role in broken arm. Also, is that really a trend, or fantasy of TIMs?

[–]RationalNeutral 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

On the one hand: If it did, explain the mechanism by which it does play a role. If it weren't a trend, would TIMs have a reason to hide that information in the first place?

[–]whateverneverpine 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

LOL self-reports by TIMs.

[–]absoluteblasphemy 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (26 children)

Source, though? I kinda doubt medical professionals would blame a broken arm on HRT BUT there might actually be something to that since changing dominant sex hormones actually affects bone density, with cross sex hormones leading to decreased bone health in some individuals.

So tbh, even if you’re telling the truth, doctors might know something we don’t. Cross sex hormone “therapy” is extremely dangerous, we don’t need anymore people underplaying it’s risks.

[–][deleted] 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

I was about to say bone density is absolutely affected by HRT. I get that it's just a figure of speech but it's accidentally very ironic.

[–]RationalNeutral 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

Yes, bone density increases from HRT, so ironically... we're less likely to break our bones.

Source: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/28370342/

[–]MarkTwainiac 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

Even that study that you choose to cite calls it CHT - cross-sex hormone therapy - not HRT.

As I've pointed out other times, HRT stands for hormone-replacement therapy, meaning it's meant to replace the hormones the human body makes naturally; it's not hormones therapy meant to mimic some of the hormones naturally made by persons of the opposite sex.

Traditionally the acronym "HRT" and the phrase "hormone replacement therapy" has specifically meant sex-hormone replacement therapy to treat women in/after menopause or oophorectomy. When hormones such as insulin, thyroid hormone, oxytocin/pitocin, adrenalin or hepcidin are administered or prescribed, it's not called "HRT."

Please when speaking of the hormones taken by trans people use the terms and acronyms that are appropriate: CHT or CSH or THT. Like the words women and female, HRT is taken already and has a long-established meaning very different to the one you're trying to shoehorn into it.

[–]RationalNeutral 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

This is, again, not relevant information. Your response is basically "Oh shit, we're wrong, quick look over there, we take issue on that."

[–]MarkTwainiac 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

This is, again, not relevant information. Your response is basically "Oh shit, we're wrong, quick look over there, we take issue on that."

You seem to have appointed yourself arbiter of what's "relevant information." And you're the one who is deflecting and distracting here. I am simply pointing out that even in the literature you yourself cite and link to, the hormone regimens that trans people take are not called "HRT." They're called CHT, CSH or THT. Women are sick of TIMs constantly appropriating the words and terms for our sex and specific to female health and medical therapies designed & meant exclusively for female people. Invent and use your own terms. The ones you keep stealing are already taken!

I didn't address the rest of that comment coz it's just a repeat of a statement & link you posted before that I've already addressed.

[–]RationalNeutral 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (17 children)

If the doctors do know something, then it is part of their job to explain it on a level that the patient understands. Then, it is the patient's responsibility to take in that information and decide what they want to do with their body.

If a different dominant sex hormone affects bone density, wouldn't this suggest treating the patient as though they are most similar to the sex that has that dominant sex hormone?

[–]absoluteblasphemy 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (16 children)

No because trans IDd people are people on medication. Medication which is unnecessary and harmful to their health. Your argument is essentially something like “well I really like taking meth so if the doctors could just accept that and treat me like something who just naturally has all this methamphetamine in their body that would be great.” Extreme example, the same thing though.

The argument you’re making here is the exact problem OP is talking about, it is extremely wishful thinking to suggest that a medical professional treat a male on spiro and estradiol the same as a woman. Not only is it wishful thinking but it’s also stupid because biology doesn’t move around for feewlings.

[–]RationalNeutral 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (15 children)

I chose my words carefully:

most similar to the sex that has that dominant sex hormone

Does not mean

the same as a woman

As to the meth addict comparison...

Doctors do actually have to take into account how much methamphetamine is in a patient's body though? Failure to do so could have some serious interactions between medicines. This includes dosing rates for anesthesia among other things.

Meanwhile, from my personal experiences with HRT, my mental facilities on testosterone had a lot of negative mental health effects most notably a complete lack of emotion. Whereas on estrogen those mental health effects are completely gone, I experience a wide range of emotionality now and I absolutely love it. I can't ignore this experience and the profoundly positive effects it has had on my life so far.

Although I am excited to be growing breasts with estrogen, I did very literally have a thought along the lines of "It's unfortunate this medicine will cause these body changes that will draw a lot of negative discrimination."

My personal thing is the mental health benefits from this outweigh all the negatives, feminization is just a side-effect, although a happy side-effect, a side-effect none-the-less.

[–]absoluteblasphemy 9 insightful - 2 fun9 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 2 fun -  (14 children)

You’re knit picking, we both know that what you mean. And what you mean is that you want doctors to treat men on cross sex hormones like women, which is not possible because that’s not how medicine works.

As one heart to another I am so sorry that you have been taken in and brainwashed by this ideology. I truly am so sorry for you and I will keep you in my prayers that God might find a way to reach you.

Any life that you have as an imitation of a woman will be just that; an imitation. You might be enamoured with the affects of estrogen now because hormones are very powerful, but you are on a drug just like the fictional meth addict.

Transition can take you a long way, it can give you a lot mentally and physically but you do it at great expense. You do it by making yourself less than what you are, by cutting off parts and changing the shell. But you will always know what you are, even if people look and see a woman there will always be this feeling inside of you. That you are invisible, that no one sees the truth, because that is what transition truly does to people. I’ve seen it happen.

If anything I have said here has reached you; run. Run away from the community that has lied to you, told you to drug and cut your body. Run as far away as you can. Find people who will live your real truth, not this awful destructive narrative. You can get out, if you want to.

[–]RationalNeutral 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (13 children)

I'm not knit-picking, that is literally what I wrote and meant. It is evidenced by the fact that is exactly what I wrote and people have a history of pointing out just how precise in my word choice I am.

I'm also literally here to fact-check that community by giving the opposing side an opportunity to voice their opinions.

As for your comments on god... I present lil-dicky

Transition can take you a long way, it can give you a lot mentally and physically but you do it at great expense.

Well, considering that I would have killed myself using inert gas asphyxiation in August, 2020 if not for pursuing transition, I feel like I'm in a bonus round of life. So, I mean, whatever risks exist are better than death.

[–][deleted] 4 insightful - 3 fun4 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 3 fun -  (6 children)

So what were you being treated with previous to taking estrogen?

[–]RationalNeutral 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Nothing. I first questioned when I was 14, parents abused me until I agreed to repress being transgender. Seeing that abuse, I decided to give the white cis-gendered male privileged experience the best go of it I could. I studied abroad to even see how a different culture would make my idiosyncrasies manifest differently so I could have a more objective understanding of myself. My mental health improved while I was abroad, but only because I was unaware of the fact that the entire time I was indulging in feminine expressions of that culture that just appealed to me naturally. Returning to a culture I knew and having to conform to male presentation steadily eroded away those mental health improvements.

Decided to try working in that foreign country again to see if there was something about that culture, but as I now understood the difference between masculine and feminine aspects of that culture, the absence of feminine expressions did not yield the same dramatic improvement in mental health that my study abroad experience yielded.

Not to mention, I had my dream job.

There literally is no other explanation for these mental health effects other than being transgender as I had gone through the arduous process of eliminating all other possible explanations one by one for 14 years. Then when I started estrogen the negative mental effects just evaporated away almost instantaneously. It still gradually continues to get better from here, but I can't ignore all the data accumulated so far.

[–]absoluteblasphemy 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

I really just am so heartbroken for you. You can’t get out of a cult unless you see it for what it is, and to do that you have to be willing to accept reality. I ask God for strength because I believe he is the only thing powerful enough to defeat evil. I realise people don’t appreciate that but I’m religious anyway, so yeah. The power of Christ compels thee.

Just follow me for a second if you can. If you realised that you were a man what would that do to you? What would that mean for you? Like really think about it, I understand why I can say these things that it just bounces right off; it’s a self defence mechanism. If you saw the truth it well, that’s a real reckoning. It’s a real horrorshow, I know that’s why I left the trans community.

I myself was also in this community also suicidal and I know that transition seems like a solution, but it’s not, it’s just a distraction. And like I said hormones are very powerful, but what are you going to do when that glow wears off and all you have are your fantasies and an infertile body that is repulsive to 99% of people?

I’m not saying this out of cruelty, I am very genuine when I say that I care about you, I care about every person that identifies as trans because you have all been lied to and you are all being hurt.

You can leave and you can have a normal life, assuming you haven’t inverted your penis (please never do that to yourself by the way, I’ve seen a neo-vag in real life and it is grotesque) but it’s very hard and you will have to be very brave.

[–][deleted] 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

If you smoke it does a lot of crap to your body. Doctors are going to look at smoking first as the answer to every problem. Yes that does mean there are other unrelated causes of disease that may be missed or obscured. No that does not mean you should hide that you smoke from your doctor. You're the one doing mental gymnastics to avoid the biological reality of what it means to experiment on your body.

[–]RationalNeutral 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

As long as a doctor has clear logic to explain how they are arriving at the conclusion that a symptom is resulting from HRT, I don't have an issue with them looking at that first. However, if someone has a chronic disease before starting HRT, HRT isn't going to be the sudden cause of that chronic disease years later.

Likewise, if they have a clear explanation of how HRT causes the symptom at hand, I have no issue with that. It's only when HRT is being used as a lazy excuse to avoid doing proper diagnostic work, and it is clear that it completely unrelated that I have an issue with it.

[–]Femaleisnthateful 7 insightful - 2 fun7 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 2 fun -  (2 children)

I've read anecdotes of trans people lying by omission to hospital staff and then complaining of discrimination in healthcare. Victimhood has become fetishized in the trans community.

[–]MarkTwainiac 5 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

As wise and cranky Dr House used to say all the time, Everybody lies to HCPs. The difference is, many trans people today take the position that lying - including lying to medical professionals - is their "human right." And that showing skepticism or outright disbelief is in the face of their lies is transphobic discrimination, violence and a hate crime.

[–]RationalNeutral 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

There is no doubt in my mind that for any minority of any kind that temptation exists and that some people distort the truth in order to fit it into a discrimination narrative that is convenient for them.

[–]lefterfield 5 insightful - 3 fun5 insightful - 2 fun6 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

Lol, I block that IrrationalChaotic fellow, and there's all of 9 comments left! At least those nine comments are sane.

[–][deleted] 5 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

That would be an interesting thread if not for IrrationalMan and his pity party.. holy shit

[–]lefterfield 4 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Just block him, he has nothing interesting to say and has no grasp of facts or logic.

[–]one1won 4 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

I fell for the clickbait. :)

This is all heading for the courts. Or practice/insurance arbitration. But, yes, medical personnel WILL be held responsible in too many cases - either by acknowledging sex or ignoring it. (Patients who live may sue for "misgendering" during diagnosis.) Lose/lose. It'll drive good people from the profession.

My cynical self says the plan is to remove science, education, and medicine from the masses. (Police to be replaced by the military, too). Monied interests want it so.

Serfdom is the planned future, IMO. And won't that go well for women

[–]wokuspokus 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

This is why sex should not be changed on official documents, so transgender people can get the most appropriate treatment, almost always aligning with their sex. There may be a few instances (with medicines that interact with sec hormones) where the best treatment would be in line with their ‘gender identity’ or even something different again. If it’s all disclosed, medical professionals have the best chance to give the best treatment.

[–]MarkTwainiac 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

A poster on this thread has claimed:

the only major difference between [the two sexes] are cumulative changes as a function of time and certain life changes that are influenced by sex hormones.

On a biochemical level, yes, I would view them [the two sexes] as the same. If that weren't the case, there would be a need for a male-only covid vaccine and a female-only vaccine.

In response, I've selected a few passages from research on the topic:

The effects of gonadal hormones have been studied much more than sex chromosome effects, for several reasons. The theory of sexual differentiation emerging from research in the 20th century pointed almost exclusively to gonadal hormones as the proximate sex-biasing factors, so any program of research on sex differences focused first on hormones. This focus was usually rewarded, because most sex differences were found to be influenced by sex hormones. The resulting large literature on sex hormone effects gives the impression that hormones dominate as the causes of sex differences. That inference may be true, but has not been tested rigorously...

Especially since 1990, there has been increasing realization that sex differences occur throughout the body. Tissues not specialized for reproduction, including non-reproductive areas of the brain, function differently in females and males, and are differentially affected by disease in the two sexes (US National Institute of Medicine Committee on Understanding the Biology of Sex and Gender Disorders, 2001). In some cases, sex differences in disease can be dramatic...

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5369239/#R68

Some more passages snipped from the same paper that are relevant:

Before 1980, investigators in this field had predominantly studied the most obvious phenotypic sex differences, in the gonads, external and internal genitalia, and behavior (Arnold, 2002). These investigators viewed themselves largely as reproductive biologists and psychologists, because of the function of the tissues or behaviors they studied. Earlier in the 20th century, investigators had asked the fundamental question whether phenotypic sex differences were dictated by the sex chromosomes or by gonadal secretions. For the birds and mammals, the answer was that sexual development outside the gonads was controlled by gonadal hormones. Experiments showed that changing the gonadal hormones could profoundly change the sexual phenotype of reproductive tissues other than the gonads. For example, it was possible to give male hormones to genetic (XX) females to make the genitals or behavior similar to that of a male, or to take male hormones away from genetic (XY) males to make their genitals and behavior like that of females (Jost, 1947)...

Several developments have contributed to a revision of the old dogma. One is that the revolution in molecular genetics has given us a much better understanding of the genes on the sex chromosomes, their evolution, and function (Deng et al., 2014; Graves, 2006; Lahn and Page, 1997; Skaletsky et al., 2003). This new knowledge shows that the inherent inequality of X and Y genetic material in the two sexes has effects throughout the body, not just on the gonads. A second major influence has been that various experimental findings have uncovered cases in which the old theory was inadequate...

At the same time as these developments, the study of sex differences was expanding beyond tissues related to reproduction.

For example, dramatic differences have been found in the ways the kidneys, hearts, lungs and respiratory systems function in male and female humans and other animals.

In the past, scientists studied male physiology and applied findings to women, so studies such as the new USC research underscore the importance of biological differences.“Profound differences distinguish the male and female kidney,” McMahon said. “The kidney is the body’s regulator of fluid balance, and since women bear offspring, there are likely critical differences required in the mother for the benefit of both mother and offspring.”

The findings can benefit human health by improving an understanding of genetic programs that may influence drug trials, drug toxicity and cellular reprogramming, he said.

https://www.technologynetworks.com/cell-science/news/stem-cell-scientists-reveal-key-differences-in-male-and-female-kidneys-326828

Over a period of 10 years, the weight of the heart’s main pumping chamber — the left ventricle — increased by an average of 8 grams in men and decreased by 1.6 grams in women. The heart’s filling capacity — marked by the amount of blood the left ventricle can holds between heartbeats — declined in both sexes but more precipitously so in women, by about 13 milliliters, compared with just under 10 milliliters in men. The differences in size, volume and pumping ability occurred independently of other risk factors known to affect heart muscle size and performance, including body weight, blood pressure, cholesterol levels, exercise levels and smoking.

https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/news/media/releases/male_and_female_hearts_dont_grow_old_the_same_way

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5980468/

Regarding the view that "if there were significant differences between the sexes, then we'd need a COVID vaccine for each sex," an important journal article from 2014 about vaccines in general, and flu vaccines specifically, is relevant:

Biological (ie, sex) differences as well as cultural (ie, gender) norms influence the acceptance and efficacy of vaccines for males and females. These differences are often overlooked in the design and implementation of vaccination strategies. Using seasonal and pandemic influenza vaccines, we document profound differences between the sexes in the acceptance, correlates of protection, and adverse reactions following vaccination in both young and older adults.

Females develop higher antibody responses, experience more adverse reactions to influenza vaccines, and show greater vaccine efficacy than males. Despite greater vaccine efficacy in females, both young and older females are often less likely to accept influenza vaccines than their male counterparts. Identification of the biological mechanisms, including the hormones and genes, that underlie differential responses to vaccination is necessary.

We propose that vaccines should be matched to an individual's biological sex, which could involve systematically tailoring diverse types of FDA-approved influenza vaccines separately for males and females. One goal for vaccines designed to protect against influenza and even other infectious diseases should be to increase the correlates of protection in males and reduce adverse reactions in females in an effort to increase acceptance and vaccine-induced protection in both sexes.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4157517/

Also:

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33916167/#&gid=article-figures&pid=figure-1-uid-0

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8037587/table/jcm-10-01441-t001/?report=objectonly

The fact that there are indeed important differences in human male & female immune function, myriad areas of physiology generally, and in vaccine responses has been born out by the COVID-19 pandemic. Males across all age groups are much more likely to die of COVID-19 than females, and the greater the age the greater the sex disparity. Amongst people age 85 and up, men who contract the virus have died at 3.17 times the rate than women who've gotten COVID. And as most posters and readers here know, the vaccine is having different and unanticipated impacts on women than on men.

https://www.wavy.com/covid-19-vaccine/covid-19-vaccine-may-impact-women-differently/

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/health/2021/04/10/covid-vaccine-women-report-more-side-effects-than-men-heres-why/7139366002/

[–]usehername 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

A family member of mine works in the medical field and an elderly TIF's life was endangered because she was legally "male" and had a beard from testosterone use. They gave her the male dose of some drug (sorry don't remember what). She did have breasts but was incredibly thin. Everyone working with said TIF was confused because she was referred to as a "transgender male" so everyone obviously thought she was male. My family member came home asking me wtf that meant (she's peaked) and I laid it out for her. I'm not sure who would have been held responsible had she died.

[–]JustWhy 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

These people will just whine and blame medical professionals of course.

[–]RationalNeutral 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (56 children)

This would be a good reason for funding medical research on transgender people. Not just to be better able to treat transgender people, but to also improve the precision in the understanding of medicine as it applies to cisgender people.

[–]lefterfield 9 insightful - 2 fun9 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 2 fun -  (40 children)

No it isn't. This would be a good reason to acknowledge the difference between sex and gender identity, ie, the latter doesn't exist. TIMs have male-typical symptoms for heart attacks, TIFs have female-typical.

[–][deleted] 6 insightful - 2 fun6 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 2 fun -  (8 children)

Yeah, and this is sort of my point. Just because you're pumped up with exogenous hormones doesn't mean that you change sex. If anything, it just broadens the range of things that you might be susceptible to.

[–]lefterfield 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

It may increase the risk of certain kinds of conditions(heart disease, stroke), but it wouldn't necessarily make you more susceptible to a broader range of conditions. IE, it could be that the only trans-identified people that develop strokes are already at risk for them. But I don't know on that, it's just speculative. Point is, hormones cause cause side effects and promote some risks, but they don't change underlying physiology.

To be clear, I agree with your statement, and ignoring this will cause a lot of preventable tragedies.

[–][deleted] 5 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 2 fun -  (4 children)

I meant more in the realm of TIMs having a potential for breast cancer that they likely wouldn't have had before, TIFs having vaginal atrophy due to lack of estrogin within the vaginal epithelium.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5868281/

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4000345/

[–]lefterfield 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Well, breast cancer could fall into the category of increased risk, which is what I was saying. And again, I'm not saying that that is what's going on, I'm saying I don't know if that's what the data shows. In the case of females having vaginal atrophy, that is absolutely a risk they would not otherwise have had.

[–][deleted] 5 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

Yeah, I just wanted to throw links up to clarify. We were mostly on the same page anyway. I've somewhat abandoned ship anyway after the thread was pretty much hijacked into a pity party.

[–]lefterfield 4 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Lol, yes. He's fairly ridiculous, even as TIMs go. Sorry your thread got hijacked, the medical issues are important!

[–]MarkTwainiac 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

TIMs who take exogenous estrogen (and progesterone if they do) have an increased risk of breast cancer over other males, but their risk does not rise to the risk level of female people with intact breasts.

[–]RationalNeutral 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Some cells do fundamentally alter their function in response to exogenous hormones. Some don't. The specifics of which are incompletely understood due to insufficient research in this field of medicine. Hence, more information is needed by doing that research.

[–]whateverneverpine 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

LOL, sex doesn't change. They need more info on how to help prevent young people buying into the fantasy.

[–]RationalNeutral 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (30 children)

If that were the case, this exact same medical research being funded would prove your claim though, wouldn't it?

[–]lefterfield 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (29 children)

Go for it, then. Drugging yourself with artificial hormones does cause all sorts of medical side effects which might be worth researching. In the meantime, it would be prudent for these people to acknowledge that their heart attack symptoms will be based on sex.

[–]RationalNeutral 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (28 children)

As the name implies, bioidentical hormones are just that... hormones that are biologically identical to the hormones produced by the relevant sex organ. Estrogen bioidenticals, for example, were originally developed for the treatment of post-menopausal symptoms of women. TIMs offer an opportunity to study the longer-term effects of HRT treatment than post-menopause cases can offer.

Meanwhile, what evidence do you have to support the claim of heart attack symptoms being as you describe?

[–]lefterfield 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (20 children)

...Are you serious right now? Hormones do not work the same in male bodies as they do in female bodies, REGARDLESS of what type of hormones they are or if you are taking them at a comparable rate. TIMs interactions with estrogen can only tell us how males respond to estrogen. It tells us NOTHING about post-menopausal women.

Site your evidence that hormones literally remake physiology, and I'll dig up some studies that say that men remain men and have male symptoms - even after taking estrogen.

[–]RationalNeutral 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

Why do I get the feeling you will fail to produce evidence after I produce mine? I'll be back in a moment.

Here's the first googled result: https://opentextbc.ca/biology/chapter/18-2-how-hormones-work/

And here's relevant sections:

The cell signaling pathways induced by the steroid hormones regulate specific genes on the cell’s DNA. The hormones and receptor complex act as transcription regulators by increasing or decreasing the synthesis of mRNA molecules of specific genes. This, in turn, determines the amount of corresponding protein that is synthesized by altering gene expression. This protein can be used either to change the structure of the cell or to produce enzymes that catalyze chemical reactions.

Hormones cause cellular changes by binding to receptors on target cells.

Lipid-derived (soluble) hormones can enter the cell by diffusing across the plasma membrane and binding to DNA to regulate gene transcription and to change the cell’s activities by inducing production of proteins that affect, in general, the long-term structure and function of the cell.

Then what of these people that are born with XY genetic makeup, some go on completely unaware of their genetic makeup living lives as women?: https://novonordiskfonden.dk/en/news/more-women-than-expected-are-genetically-men/

[–]MarkTwainiac 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Then what of these people that are born with XY genetic makeup, some go on completely unaware of their genetic makeup living lives as women?: https://novonordiskfonden.dk/en/news/more-women-than-expected-are-genetically-men/

LOL, that article says right at the top that these XY people learn that something is amiss during puberty. Coz, you see, menarche is a thing that girls & their parents are well aware of and acutely on the lookout from about age 10 on. Maybe if you knew anything about girls & women, our physiology, our development & our life experiences, you'd realize this.

The average age for girls to get their first period is 12. Which means many get their period at 10 or 11. Some start at 9 or 8; only a period before turning 8 is considered a sign of "precocious puberty" in girls. 98% of girls get their period by the time they turn 15. Girls talk about their periods amongst their friends and female family members - so most girls are very clued in to which of their friends & relatives have started menstruating already, & who hasn't. Sometimes girls being out of sync in this regard can lead to jealousies & rifts in friendships snd amongst sisters. For example, when I first got my period shortly after turning 11, my closest friend got very angry coz she was 15 months older and hadn't gotten hers yet.

Any girl who turns 15 without having gotten a period yet will be very aware that her situation is highly unusual, and she'll likely be extremely worried that "something is wrong" too. Socially, she most likely will feel awkward & "left out." Some other girls who know her situation might be mean to her as a result. But the girl herself will be acutely aware that something is off.

It's total bullshit that there are whole lot of XY people who truly believe themselves to be female who've gotten to adulthood and beyond "completely unaware of their genetic makeup living (their) lives as women" and never questioning their sex when none of them have ever had a period.

[–]lefterfield 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Physiology: the branch of biology that deals with the normal functions of living organisms and their parts. the way in which a living organism or bodily part functions.

So you're giving me an article from a textbook on how hormones bond to a cell. And about unusual chromosome patterns as if that's supposed to be relevant to anything(hint: it's not). What you're needing to find is a study that shows that hormone changes cause physiological changes on a system-wide scale, since your claim is that taking cross sex hormones can change how heart attacks work in male vs female bodies. This would also require showing that hormones are in some way responsible for heart attack symptoms in a normal member of either sex.

So, here's a weird little condition that for some reason only women and TIFs suffer from:

https://cancer-network.org/cancer-information/transgendergender-nonconforming-people-and-cancer/ovarian-cancer-in-transgender-men/

Could you explain to me why, no matter how much testosterone a male, transgender or not, takes, he will never develop ovarian cancer?

[–]RationalNeutral 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (11 children)

Something that might be useful for your search would be cross-sex heart transplants: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-heart-transplant-idUKTRE4AB7FK20081112

I would suspect that if your claim holds as much as you propose, that a cross-sex heart transplant would fail 100% of the time, but the above article is showing a 15% failure rate for men-only. Which, suggests there is something more complicated going on.

Transgender medical research MIGHT help shed light on the nuances that can decrease that kind of risk.

The article points out that Male hearts vary in size from Women's hearts, which, could be exactly influenced by sex hormones (and not genetic makeup) during puberty.

So then the question might get posed do we see the same kind of rate of failures for pre-puberty heart transplants?

That's your rabbit hole to go down though, seeing as at the moment I'm attempting to prove your point for you on the suspicion you aren't going to put in the effort.

[–]MarkTwainiac 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Most of the marked sex differences in human heart size - and thus differences in such factors as how hard & fast the heart has to work to pump the same amount of blood - occur as a result of the changes each sex goes through in the puberty of adolescence. In/after puberty, the left ventricle - the muscled chamber that pumps blood to the rest of the body - in males is 25-38% larger than in females. Prior to puberty, the difference is much smaller - males only have a 6% advantage prior to age 12 - but 6% is still not nothing.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/7490158/

In pediatric heart transplants

Organ-recipient gender mismatch did not affect mortality for either male or female recipients, though gender-mismatched females had the worst survival compared to gender-matched males, who had the best survival (unadjusted HR 1.26, CI 1.07-1.49; p = 0.005). After adjustment for other risk factors affecting transplant mortality, female recipients had decreased survival compared to male recipients (HR 1.27, CI 1.12-1.44; p = 0.020) and gender matching had no effect. In conclusion, gender mismatch alone did not increase long-term mortality for pediatric heart transplant recipients. However, there may be additive effects of gender and gender matching affecting survival. There are insufficient data at this time

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/24119046/

[–]lefterfield 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

I'm sorry, what? That doesn't in any way contradict anything I said. No, I would find it a far more surprising result if cross-sex transplants were always a failure. A male heart is - as far as I'm aware - very similar to a female heart, just larger. Same as a male liver, or pancreas, or kidney. Separating people into individual organs doesn't answer the question of male vs female physiology.

[–]MarkTwainiac 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Size is only one of the many important differences that have been found in male & female kidneys. Sex

of donor and recipient plays a larger role in kidney transplants than previously assumed. Female donor kidneys do not function as well in men -- due to their smaller size. Women have a higher risk of rejecting a male donor kidney.

https://journals.physiology.org/doi/full/10.1152/ajprenal.00584.2018

Major differences have been found in other human organs too, including the heart.

Large studies have been carried out with respect to the cardiac functions among the different sexes in both animals and humans, though the studies on male predominate. There is increasing evidence that the biological sex play a significant role in cardiac functioning, as well as in the occurrence and outcome of cardiac disease. Female sex tends to have an upper hand in the heart function which is progressively lost once they attain menopause. Sex differences have been reported in left ventricular hypertrophy, cardiac remodelling with aging, arrhythmogenic activity and post-infarct myocardial salvage.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4190707/

The anatomic location of the major vessels in the heart, lung, and most organs are indistinguishable among the sexes. Similarly, the cardiovascular systems of males and females have the same formed elements circulating in the blood, the vessels are composed of the same cell types, and the union of the elements perform the same functions. Healthy men and women are in homeostasis. Consequently, it makes sense to conclude that the functions and functional responses of all of these common elements are the same in men and women, right? Well, no, not necessarily, and that is where the tale becomes interesting. The take-home message of this monograph will be that while men and women are indeed in homeostasis and they possess the same structural elements, how those components function to achieve homeostasis with respect to the cardiovascular system differs (from subtly to profoundly). The manifestation of these differences has a real outcome: how and when cardiovascular disease occurs, how disease can be prevented, and what can be done to ameliorate or treat its manifestations effectively https://journals.physiology.org/doi/full/10.1152/advan.00099.2006

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6298433/

https://www.cardofmich.com/men-women-heart-differences/

There are many marked differences - starting at birth - between the lung tissue, lung secretions and lung function of males and females that go way, way beyond size differences too. Male and female humans actually breathe differently! I first twigged to some of these differences decades ago because I grew up with a brother & sister who both had cystic fibrosis, which ravages the lungs - and even in the 1950s & early 1960s when CF was first being understood & described in medical literature, notable differences were observed in how the same disease from the same exact genetic flaw (Delta F-508) manifested in the two sexes even from the same parentage & household and with the same medical treatment, nutrition, level of exercise, home care, physical therapy, interventions, etc. Generally speaking girls with CF tend to get much sicker much sooner than boys, and they die younger.

[–]lefterfield 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Please let the other poster know.

load more comments (1 reply)

    [–]RationalNeutral 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

    I'm attempting to prove your point for you on the suspicion you aren't going to put in the effort.

    I literally said that I wasn't attempting to contradict you with this comment, do you even read the comments your respond to?

    A male heart is - as far as I'm aware - very similar to a female heart, just larger.

    So then, in the absence of larger discrepancies, like the explicit existence or nonexistence of an organ, as a whole the biochemical response (for the administration of medicine) is going to be far more similar to the sex hormone being taken at the time, correct?

    [–]lefterfield 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

    is going to be far more similar to the sex hormone being taken at the time, correct?

    Nooooo. This is the thing you need to find evidence for. Our bodies are not just organs held together by hormones.

    [–]MarkTwainiac 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

    What evidence do you have for your claim that

    Some cells do fundamentally alter their function in response to exogenous hormones

    ????

    By which I mean not exogenous hormones generally like insulin, thyroid hormone, hepcidin or adrenalin. And not sex hormones taken by the sex in which they are most prevalent and who have the appropriate receptors for them in the right amount, as in the case of the estrogen & progesterone in hormonal BC meant for females, the hormones in HRT taken by women for menopause, or the hormone oxytocin (in synthetic form pitocin) sometimes given to women in labor.

    Please provide the evidence that "cells fundamentally alter their function in response to exogenous hormones" that pertains specifically to the particular sex hormones predominant in one sex taken by the opposite sex in amounts meant to mimic the levels that occur naturally in the opposite sex in their prime reproductive years - namely exogenous T taken by females in high doses, and exogenous estrogen taken in high dose by males.

    Also, most TIMs who take exogenous estrogen also use powerful T blockers. How can you be sure that the changes in cellular function you claim are a result of exogenous (sex) hormones isn't due to powerful steroid hormone blockers like Spironolactone?

    Waiting with bated breath to find out all the ways that cells "fundamentally alter their functions" due to exogenous sex hormones. Remember, you didn't say cells cease, reduce, increase, speed up their normal functions, or that they might proliferate, grow or shrink - you said cells "fundamentally alter their functions."

    As for your claim that

    TIMs offer an opportunity to study the longer-term effects of HRT treatment than post-menopause cases can offer.

    No they don't! HRT stands for "hormone replacement therapy." The HRT you are talking about was designed to replace the hormones that women's bodies naturally make, have the correct kind & amount of receptors for, and which female bodies have evolved to utilize in female-specific ways. When males take these hormones it's not "HRT"! Moreover, you seem to be suggesting that post-menopausal women are physically the same as men. That's misogynistic, male-centrist, male-supremacist tosh.

    Studying TIMs who take cross-sex hormones late in life will provide absolutely ZERO information - useful or not - about "the longer-term effects of HRT treatment." To get a picture "the longer-term effects of HRT treatment" requires studying women on long-term HRT. Not effing men.

    As a matter of fact, quite a lot of research on "the longer-term effects on HRT" in women has been done, and more is ongoing. Why on earth would anyone think a good way - or the best way - to find out the impact of long-term HRT in us is to give female hormones to men and to study them?

    [–]RationalNeutral 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

    I haven't read your comment in completion because I have 7 different threads that I am juggling at the moment.

    From skimming you seem to be asking for the same evidence as a different thread... as such, I'm linking this response: https://saidit.net/s/GenderCritical/comments/7tfg/a_question_for_the_community/tb33

    [–]RationalNeutral 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

    Circling back...

    Also, most TIMs who take exogenous estrogen also use powerful T blockers. How can you be sure that the changes in cellular function you claim are a result of exogenous (sex) hormones isn't due to powerful steroid hormone blockers like Spironolactone?

    Because estradiol monotherapy is a thing, a great number of transgender people do not take a hormone blocker and just use an abundance of estradiol to suppress testosterone production down to acceptable levels. I am one such person.

    I know of some doctors who start with hormone blockers and then after achieving an appropriate balance of estradiol in a person, switch to estradiol monotherapy as well.

    As for the "Misogynistic, male centrist, male supremacist" part of your comment...

    On the one hand, the level of contempt apparent in your comment makes it seem like your hatred of trangender people is really an outlet for a greater overarching hatred of men as a whole. Which, I mean, there are absolutely men who do terrible things that earn that ire, and if you've been subject to traumatic experiences, discrimination, or otherwise... you have my compassion and empathy. Given your views, I won't be able to help you overcome those matters, but I feel for you and wish the best for you.

    To that end though, why do you apply that same hatred to TIFs? Lumping all transgender people together?

    On the other hand...

    My current understanding is that the only major difference between each sex are cumulative changes as a function of time and certain life changes that are influenced by sex hormones.

    On a biochemical level, yes, I would view them as the same. If that weren't the case, there would be a need for a male-only covid vaccine and a female-only vaccine.

    HRT stands for "hormone replacement therapy."

    Exactly, in TIMs, you are replacing testosterone with estrogen.

    In post-menopausal women, you are replenishing estrogen.

    It's also not called Hormone Replenishment Therapy, but that is never the less what it does for post-menopausal women.

    Why on earth would anyone think a good way - or the best way - to find out the impact of long-term HRT in us is to give female hormones to men and to study them?

    Longer durations possible than post-menopausal cases.

    [–]MarkTwainiac 2 insightful - 3 fun2 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 3 fun -  (1 child)

    I stand by my earlier comments. You have provided ZERO evidence or substantiation for your preposterous claim that

    Some cells do fundamentally alter their function in response to exogenous hormones

    Or for your other claims, such as that studying old men who take exogenous estrogen will provide valuable insight into female health and medical care. Coz there is no evidence or substantiation for the pie-in-the-sky malarkey you've made up out of whole cloth.

    I did not say that transgender people are "misogynistic, male-centrist, male-supremacist." Nor would I, coz I know a number who aren't. I didn't say you are that way either. I said simply that the views you are espousing are "misogynistic, male-centrist, male-supremacist tosh." Look, see here:

    you seem to be suggesting that post-menopausal women are physically the same as men. That's misogynistic, male-centrist, male-supremacist tosh.

    You're the only one on this thread that has come out with ad hominems to cast aspersions on me as a person. And tellingly, you've used sexist ad hominems specifically meant to deride me and dismiss everything I say simply because I am a woman:

    the level of contempt apparent in your comment makes it seem like your hatred of trangender people is really an outlet for a greater overarching hatred of men as a whole.

    LOL, why don't you call me a frigid man hater & ball buster while you're all it!

    BTW, whilst I was typing this one of my adult sons phoned. He had a good laugh at the idea that because I disagree with you and called you out on the misogynistic tosh you're spouting, it means I am full of "contempt" and "hatred" for everyone in an entire population group, and he wants you to know that you are absolutely brilliant in sussing out that my supposed contempt and hatred of all "transgender people"

    is really an outlet for a greater overarching hatred of men as a whole.

    As for your query,

    To that end though, why do you apply that same hatred to TIFs? Lumping all transgender people together?

    I don't understand. My comment didn't mention TIFs at all. The idea that I "apply that same hatred to TIFs" seems to come from the same place that you got your belief that when males take estrogen in hopes it will make them resemble women it causes their cells to "fundamentally alter their function." Which in polite circles is sometimes referred to as where the sun don't shine.

    Finally, I don't get why in response to my statement that

    HRT stands for "hormone replacement therapy." The HRT you are talking about was designed to replace the hormones that women's bodies naturally make, have the correct kind & amount of receptors for, and which female bodies have evolved to utilize in female-specific ways. When males take these hormones it's not "HRT"!

    You would respond by saying

    It's also not called Hormone Replenishment Therapy, but that is never the less what it does for post-menopausal women.

    As if this is some gotcha. Comes across as mansplaining to me. Or maybe it's TIM transplaining; after all, replenish and replace have slightly different meanings.

    But the real issue here is that, as you yourself say,

    My current understanding is that the only major difference between each sex are cumulative changes as a function of time and certain life changes that are influenced by sex hormones.

    Which is an admission that you are very poorly informed and have not kept up with the scientific literature on sex differences and development in human zygotes, embryos, fetuses, children and adults that's come out since the 1990s - and all that's been learned in the era of stem cell research.

    [–]MarkTwainiac 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

    I forgot to respond to this:

    On a biochemical level, yes, I would view them [the two sexes] as the same. If that weren't the case, there would be a need for a male-only covid vaccine and a female-only vaccine.

    The fact that you would say this shows not only that you are unaware of the myriad fundamental differences between human male & female immune function, but you've also never looked into the history of women's exclusion from most drug trials including vaccine trials, you're clueless about the different ways females from infancy on respond to vaccines - and you don't even pay attention to the news about COVID and its vaccines.

    https://www.wavy.com/covid-19-vaccine/covid-19-vaccine-may-impact-women-differently/

    https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/health/2021/04/10/covid-vaccine-women-report-more-side-effects-than-men-heres-why/7139366002/

    https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33916167/#&gid=article-figures&pid=figure-1-uid-0

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8037587/table/jcm-10-01441-t001/?report=objectonly

    What's happening with the COVID vaccines is not at all unusual. Journal article from 2014:

    Biological (ie, sex) differences as well as cultural (ie, gender) norms influence the acceptance and efficacy of vaccines for males and females. These differences are often overlooked in the design and implementation of vaccination strategies. Using seasonal and pandemic influenza vaccines, we document profound differences between the sexes in the acceptance, correlates of protection, and adverse reactions following vaccination in both young and older adults.

    Females develop higher antibody responses, experience more adverse reactions to influenza vaccines, and show greater vaccine efficacy than males. Despite greater vaccine efficacy in females, both young and older females are often less likely to accept influenza vaccines than their male counterparts. Identification of the biological mechanisms, including the hormones and genes, that underlie differential responses to vaccination is necessary.

    We propose that vaccines should be matched to an individual's biological sex, which could involve systematically tailoring diverse types of FDA-approved influenza vaccines separately for males and females. One goal for vaccines designed to protect against influenza and even other infectious diseases should be to increase the correlates of protection in males and reduce adverse reactions in females in an effort to increase acceptance and vaccine-induced protection in both sexes.

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4157517/

    [–]whateverneverpine 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

    Insanity. Study men to get better insight into women? No. Bad science.

    [–]EveSerpent 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

    At least he’s funny.

    [–]whateverneverpine 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

    There's no such thing as "cis."

    [–]RationalNeutral 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

    It is a chemistry prefix, so yes it does exist.

    [–]Tarlatan 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

    Photosynthesis exists but it does not apply to the human body. A word misapplied is meaning destroyed.

    [–]RationalNeutral 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

    It isn't misapplied though, see the following comment for more information:

    https://saidit.net/s/GenderCritical/comments/7tfg/a_question_for_the_community/tb4u

    [–]whateverneverpine 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

    Yeah, we're not talking about "chemistry prefixes," we're talking about referring to people in a manner they don't want to be referred to as, and reject the entire premise of the trans/cis binary. Smash the binary - don't reconstitute it.

    [–]absoluteblasphemy 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

    We can better “treat” “transgender” people by letting them know it’s impossible to change sex.

    Cisgender is a made up word for a normal human being, used to other and distance gender confused people from the rest of the populace. Seriously don’t recommend using it in a place like this cause we will laugh you out of here.

    [–][deleted] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

    They'll blame medical staff for somehow being transphobic because they didn't do special research on trans people. Oh look it's already happening in the comments.

    But underneath the posturing it's doublethink.

    ‘But the whole universe is outside us. Look at the stars! Some of them are a million light-years away. They are out of our reach for ever.’

    ‘What are the stars?’ said O’Brien indifferently. ‘They are bits of fire a few kilometres away. We could reach them if we wanted to. Or we could blot them out. The earth is the centre of the universe. The sun and the stars go round it.’

    Winston made another convulsive movement. This time he did not say anything. O’Brien continued as though answering a spoken objection:

    ‘For certain purposes, of course, that is not true. When we navigate the ocean, or when we predict an eclipse, we often find it convenient to assume that the earth goes round the sun and that the stars are millions upon millions of kilometres away. But what of it? Do you suppose it is beyond us to produce a dual system of astronomy? The stars can be near or distant, according as we need them. Do you suppose our mathematicians are unequal to that? Have you forgotten doublethink?'

    I think of this 1984 passage a lot. Mostly the last part. "For certain purposes, when we want to make children, it is convenient to assume that sex impacts the body and that only females have a body that can carry a baby, produce eggs, have a period, and breastfeed. What of it? Biological sex can be only in the mind or impact the body according to how we want it."