Challenging gender "education": where do you even begin?

RationalNeutral · 2021-05-05T18:15:49+00:00

One question: If a FTM transgender person tries to help a kid (and within reason does not act like a total creep in the process) will they be made out to be a complete predator?

RationalNeutral · 2021-05-05T15:17:41+00:00

Interesting.

RationalNeutral · 2021-05-05T15:12:42+00:00

Thanks for pointing this out.

If I ever write a book about my transgender experiences (I doubt I will), I'll be sure to use that title then. Unlike some transgender people, I am not a fan of revisionist history writing. The fact I spent as many years presenting masculinely is more something to learn from and/or use to my advantage rather than to discard or outright ignore completely.

RationalNeutral · 2021-05-05T01:29:50+00:00

No doubt, if you had spent as long as I have deprived of the freedom to express femininity you would come across that way too.

RationalNeutral · 2021-05-04T23:27:09+00:00

Most transgender youth I have met have been in the UK and unable to access HRT due to the waitlist being too long that by the time they are able to start HRT they are adults. So from those experiences, it gave me the impression that transgender youth are still an uncommon thing. In addition to the abuse, I faced when I attempted to come out the first time when 14 sort of reinforces the notion that it is uncommon (if it is actually more common this just inspires a great deal of frustration with the lies I was told then).

Additionally, out of an abundance of caution, I typically refer all transgender youth who reach out to me to professional non-profits (like mermaid UK for example). The stigmatization of transgender adults typically means that it is too legally risky for me to offer any assistance to transgender youth anyway. Hence, I don't spend a lot of time understanding / supporting the transgender youth population because my only recourse is to refer them to other resources. It is far easier to resist the temptation to offer assistance when you remain willfully ignorant on their situation.

If I were in a situation where it was allowable for me to offer that support to transgender youth, then absolutely would love to learn the intricacies of their situation and offer that assistance. At the same time though, there was a link on LGBdroptheT where even I am like "What the fuck did you expect?" with regard to a particular transgender person's actions. Depending on the circumstance, I might even expect a bonafide cisgender woman to be met with hostility if they behaved in the same manner as the person playing victimhood was in that thread. So... yeah, I do want to offer more in the way of help for transgender youth, but the current legal climate makes that a solid no.

RationalNeutral · 2021-05-04T22:56:13+00:00

Yes, good job.

If only more people in the sub applied a basic level of critical analysis this community as a whole would earn far more credibility for naming itself "gender critical". Unfortunately though, /u/lefterfield did not do that work and for a community that has named itself after critical analysis of gender theory's claims, it is frankly quite infuriating that it took this long for someone call out that bullshit.

So I mean /u/Marktwainiac you have my respect, you do actually follow through in being critical and I appreciate that about your responses.

If only the entire community did as their name implied.

RationalNeutral · 2021-05-04T22:42:51+00:00

The association with DIY abortions is to give you a more relatable situation where "When the need is great enough, people will take matters into their own hands, doctor or not." It is not meant to have anything to do with the relative knowledge necessary to carry out each DIY task.

Transgender HRT is not a thoroughly researched area of medicine. As such, it does not take a lot to reach a point where someone is on-par with or more advanced in understanding than an endocrinologist. There have been a few endocrinologists & family doctors who offer HRT that either point to or even praise information shared amongst the transgender community as more qualitative than what is available in formal medical circles.

For the sake of understanding where this claim of knowledge greater than health care professionals comes from, suspend your own personal views on gender identity theory for a moment. I'm trying to highlight the pragmatics of the situation in which ideology might make overly complicated to explain.

To be clear that's not a criticism of formal medicine though. The symptoms of dysphoria being as intense as they are, provide the transgender community a sense of urgency and/or willingness to experiment in a way that most medical ethics boards probably would not be willing to approve in a formal setting. As such more formal medicine is lagging behind.

Formal medical circles have nothing to gain from urgency and everything to lose. Transgender people have everything to gain and nothing to lose from urgent and more exploratory experimentation. If we do nothing, we'll eventually succumb to a particularly bad bout of dysphoria and die by our own hands. If we attempt something and fuck up, usually that outcome will be a happier existence than death. If we get it right then, great, we get to have the same baseline of content living as a cis-gendered individual (at least if we ignore potential discrimination).

This is why my original comment on this thread was "We need more research to know anything useful." Currently, the field of knowledge on transgender care is so shallow that it does not take a whole lot to get to a level that is on par with medical professionals.

RationalNeutral · 2021-05-04T21:54:24+00:00

I understood your point, and that you are requesting that I pick some acronym other than HRT, it's just a completely separate issue to the claim that "HRT does affect bone density therefore it may actually cause a broken bone." when the only effect is an increase in bone density that would prevent a broken bone.

RationalNeutral · 2021-05-04T21:51:50+00:00

This is pretty consistent with my current understanding of the development of the human body at various ages. I don't have any issue with what you've presented here, other than I really wanted /u/lefterfield to show they are capable of doing the work or if they'd rather opine away.

RationalNeutral · 2021-05-04T21:41:15+00:00

Indeed you have, others have not.

RationalNeutral · 2021-05-04T19:15:58+00:00

Showing you up isn't actually the point though, this was an opportunity for you to demonstrate that the average person who subscribes to this ideology are calm, rational people, who have thought through their opinions well enough that it is clear this is an ideology worth debating.

What you've demonstrated, instead, is this is just your version of "If we can convince ourselves we're better than this other minority group, then we don't have to admit we're at the bottom of the social hierarchy."

RationalNeutral · 2021-05-04T17:59:40+00:00

I provided sources for you to do your own research, it's up to you to actually do that research though.

RationalNeutral · 2021-05-04T17:46:39+00:00

That would more or less require me to summarize an entire medical school curriculum in a saidit comment, for that level of explanation you would be better off taking formal courses.

RationalNeutral · 2021-05-04T17:43:33+00:00

I provided you evidence with regard to hormones working the same in male and female bodies, if you are not satisfied with that evidence, it would be incumbent upon you to form a counter-argument, to point out the flaws of that evidence, etc.

As for your claim on heart attacks, that is an entirely separate discussion that you still have not supported, at this point you're only making excuses to avoid actually supporting your own claims.

"Nuh ugh, you go first." is not an argument.

RationalNeutral · 2021-05-04T17:37:40+00:00

I didn't bring up suicidal ideation proactively or use that to enter your spaces, that was something you explicitly asked about. The objective fact that gender dysphoria results in suicidal ideation are not some sort of clever manipulation to hang out with women. Most of us are just trying to avoid the negative effects of poorly understood phenomena. I am not asking for your (specifically this subs) sympathy I am asking targeted questions to get a complete understanding of your views, I.E. listening. These targeted questions give me an idea of how well have you thought about your views, do they stand up to the lightest of questioning/contradiction.

The fact you misinterpret that to be "debate" means you have a woefully shallow understanding of what debate actually is supposed to be.

Re: DSM-5 for depression

Suicidal ideation is the most extreme symptom of depression, so obviously at that time I fit those criteria. However, in order to treat depression, you have to figure out what the source of the depression is. We were working through various disorders and no disorders fit. Gender dysphoria on the other hand did have a match, and since starting estrogen have not had any depression.

Your excited statement over growing breasts was frankly extremely fucking disturbing, thanks for that.

Good to know, having my own boobies is awesome.

You would be welcomed with open arms at the debate sub, where you can post pseudoscience and look for validation until your heart's content.

If the kind of poorly thought through discussion that has occurred in this thread / elsewhere in the sub is what the debate sub is for, I don't think that will be terribly productive.

Most of you can't even avoid contradicting yourself in the same comment, let alone hope to achieve anything meaningful debate.

RationalNeutral · 2021-05-04T17:02:47+00:00

I'm attempting to prove your point for you on the suspicion you aren't going to put in the effort.

I literally said that I wasn't attempting to contradict you with this comment, do you even read the comments your respond to?

A male heart is - as far as I'm aware - very similar to a female heart, just larger.

So then, in the absence of larger discrepancies, like the explicit existence or nonexistence of an organ, as a whole the biochemical response (for the administration of medicine) is going to be far more similar to the sex hormone being taken at the time, correct?

RationalNeutral · 2021-05-04T16:58:59+00:00

No, I made no claim relevant to heart attacks. The claim I made was that hormones do work the same in male and female bodies. I was addressing/explaining how both male and female bodies respond the same way to sex hormones and thus, over time, a transgender person will more similarly resemble the sex of the hormone they are taking. Not 100% identical, but similar enough that excluding the existence / nonexistence of explicit organs you'd probably have better success thinking through the lens of the sex hormone being taken as the guiding divider between which path of treatment to offer.

I'm still waiting for you to provide original supporting evidence for your original claim (stop putting words in my mouth to move the goalposts it really speaks poorly of your debate skills) towards heart attacks though. The only reason you'd try to change the subject from heart attacks to ovarian cancer (gasp, TIMs don't have ovaries, no shit sherlock) is you were unable to find supporting evidence for your original claim.

RationalNeutral · 2021-05-04T16:41:49+00:00

It's called DIY HRT, if transgender people are prevented access to doctors to guide their HRT, most will just take matters into their own hands. Find their own source of estrogens or testosterone and transition without medical assistance.

Similar to how, when abortion is made illegal, women will take matters into their own hands to abort children.

RationalNeutral · 2021-05-04T16:37:11+00:00

This is, again, not relevant information. Your response is basically "Oh shit, we're wrong, quick look over there, we take issue on that."

RationalNeutral · 2021-05-04T16:35:17+00:00

I don't see how any of this information is relevant to a transgender person who transitioned post-puberty, which for the time being consists of the majority of that population.

RationalNeutral · 2021-05-04T16:29:44+00:00

I don't understand how that correlation exists in your mind when historically the MtF transgender has been far more stigmatized than the FtM transgender. If not, quite regularly, the FtM transgender population gets almost entirely ignored because it is inconvenient for much of the propaganda that specifically attacks MtF transgender people in order to attack the transgender population as a whole.

RationalNeutral · 2021-05-04T16:28:26+00:00

I do not believe I made a claim, I was trying to explain how to correctly understand basic statistical information.
We are talking about suicide rates which is a number that scales with the size of the population that is why it is expressed as a percentage or a X per Y number of people thing. A suicide rate actually has useful meaning for describing the likelihood someone afflicted with some circumstance may actually attempt suicide. The reason for this is because it paints a picture of the probability of suicidal ideation independent of the population size of the group in question.

Using raw numbers, as you have, has no real use for characterizing the risk of suicide without transitioning explicitly because it is dependent on population size.

The whole point of constructing an argument is to try and remove unrelated information from an argument whereas you are constructing the entirety of your argument from unrelated information.

This would be like trying to argue that a farm treats its chickens well because it has 1000 chickens rather than actually looking at anything of substance to determine whether or not it treats its chickens well.

RationalNeutral · 2021-05-04T16:12:26+00:00

I asked a question for more information and was not really making a claim with this comment, for the record.

What I'm trying to ask really is, "Is suicide as much of a concern for Gay, Lesbian, or Bisexual people?"

There is no claim being made here, I just have no idea about their circumstances and am asking.

Obviously, if it isn't as much of a concern that may explain why it wasn't a statistic of interest to activism at the time.

Re: Generational increase in empathy

This is a general personal observation, I do not know how someone would quantifiably or empirically go about proving or disproving this. Nor do I really have any interest in proving or disproving that notion.

RationalNeutral · 2021-05-04T14:32:22+00:00

In due time, I will make my way over there.

RationalNeutral · 2021-05-04T13:12:36+00:00

If a young person comes in with a broken arm and they are on medication that might affect bone strenght they will do follow ups. I had that happen and i'm not trans.

Great, the fundamental problem is that HRT strengthens bones: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/28370342/

You lot don't even understand basic biology most of the time

Well, since HRT is often made difficult to access for many transgender people. A lot of transgender people have to study the intricacies of how hormones are processed in the body so that they can do the appropriate calculations to dose their estrogen (or testosterone) correctly.

Which, in order to accomplish that, involves a more profound understanding of biology that makes it abundantly clear that on a biochemical level men and women have more in common than they differ.

Again, if men and women were so dramatically different as you claim, they would need a men-only vaccine and a women-only vaccine for the covid virus, now wouldn't they?

If they take care of trans like they would any other patient you lot take issue. If they treat you special you lot take issue. If they don't treat you you lot take issue. Make up your damn minds what you want.

Have you ever considered that the transgender population is full of individuals who all have their own separate opinions? There is no transgender hive mind... for that matter since you are keen to label transgender ideology a cult... wouldn't this be evidence that instead of following a singular doctrine, like a cult, the transgender population is allowed to have their own independent thoughts?

No one needs to deal with that shit, especially not during a bloody pandemic. Seriously.

Well, the irony of the situation is that until trump and his supporters explicitly went out of their way to bring transgender care to the forefront of everyone's minds... nobody was dealing with it. Ironically, it is because of other's visceral hatred of us (including members of this sub) that the rest of society has looked at your ilk's actions in horror and decide to rally in support of us.

Good job, you played yourself.

RationalNeutral · 2021-05-04T12:56:25+00:00

Yes, bone density increases from HRT, so ironically... we're less likely to break our bones.

Source: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/28370342/

RationalNeutral · 2021-05-04T12:43:32+00:00

The main problem with your premise is that with a 100% attempted suicide rate, a population of 1,000 out transgender people would result in 1,000 attempted suicides, using your own assumptions to compare similar population sizes a decade apart would support a claim of decreasing suicide risk.

Alternatively worded to be more clear:

Your assumption of 100% suicide attempts would be a 100 attempts per 100 people rate. The 41% statistic would then be 41 attempts per 100 people rate. As 41 is smaller than 100, this would be a decrease.

This would actually be a ratio of 0.41

If 1,000 is your favorite population size, then 1,000 to 410 attempts, respectively.

More bluntly 100% > 41%.

Should I continue? You've made it clear that anything but an apology would result in being blocked. If you're not going to read past this point, I don't know if it is worth the time typing out the rest of the flaws in your argument. Although, as it stands this reckless incompetence with statistical analysis is pretty jarring on its own merits.

RationalNeutral · 2021-05-04T12:05:43+00:00

Oh, sorry, I hadn't intended to ignore any comments. At the same time, there were a lot of threads I was handling simultaneously, so, at a glance, it appeared I had already responded to your comment the last time I visited that thread. I'll address your comment momentarily.

As for the topic at hand, this particular comment just points out you literally have a sub-rule that bans refutation or more convincing arguments. This is effectively saying "We're not here to be accurate or grounded in reality, we're here to let our imaginations run free from responsibility." It just comes across as incredibly ironic, if not hypocritical, for that to be a concern when you practice the very thing you are criticizing.

This comment says nothing of your original claim, I really don't know enough about the transgender community as a whole to evaluate whether or not it fits the BITE model or not because despite being transgender I do not actually spend a whole lot of time in those circles. Probably, even less time than you spend while critically analyzing those groups.

That being said, the fact that independent of those groups, I generally reach the same conclusions purely on the basis of my own personal experience without any influence from those groups largely suggests that it is not a cult preaching anything and more a collection of people with similar life experiences.

Alternatively, if you are so determined to label me as a cult member, my mere existence on these threads counterargues the following BITE model points:

Restricing access to non-cult sources of information
Forbid you from communicating with ex-members and critics
Deliberately withholding and distorting information
Instilling dependence and obedience
Restricting your leisure time and activities
Requiring you to seek permission for major decisions
Teaching me to internalize group doctrine as "truth" or "sacred science"
Instilling black vs. white, us vs them, etc.
Teaching thought-stopping techniques to prevent critical thoughts and reality-testing
Allow only positive thoughts
Reject rational analysis, critical thinking, and constructive criticism
Instill irrational fears of questioning or leaving the group
Shun if you disobey or disbelieve
Teaching that there is no happiness or fulfillment outside the group

All of the above would mean that in some fashion I should be receiving pushback from the transgender communities for inviting your critical thoughts into my worldview.

RationalNeutral · 2021-05-04T05:15:25+00:00

On the one hand, you seem to be throwing numbers out at random hoping it sticks rather than doing actual math, but if you'd like to more carefully explain how you got a 4x ratio from that information, I'm happy to read your next attempt at statistics and respond to that rather than attempt to connect your dots for you.

One thing you don't seem to be comprehending very well is sampling bias. 10 years ago, if 1/10 as many transgender people were out, then that other 9/10 would not come forward and be known to be transgender or able to be factored in statistics.

On the other hand, our current culture is not very accepting at all, it is increasingly becoming more accepting, but still a long ways off. As acceptance increases the suicide attempt rate will likely decrease. This is because suicide risk for transgender patients falls to national baseline levels after starting to transition.

The 41% statistic is a "Have you attempted suicide at least once in your life if you are transgender?" statistic. For most transgender people, that attempt was prior to transitioning.

RationalNeutral · 2021-05-04T03:49:43+00:00

Deliberately withhold and distort information

Meanwhile in the side bar...

Mods will remove opposing opinions that are high on the pyramid of debate in accordance of rule 4b.

RationalNeutral · 2021-05-04T03:47:27+00:00

I peaked when I learned that most feminists are full of shit.

Are you self-aware enough to notice the huge hypocrisy of wanting to practice misandry while fighting against misogyny?

Then when that failed, instead of working through whatever is inspiring such hate, you went "Hating everyone? I'm not out of touch, it's the people who want to encourage peace and love who are wrong."

Like where do you ask yourself "Are we the baddies?"

Alternatively, who wronged / hurt you to get you to this point?

RationalNeutral · 2021-05-04T03:10:19+00:00

It isn't misapplied though, see the following comment for more information:

https://saidit.net/s/GenderCritical/comments/7tfg/a_question_for_the_community/tb4u

RationalNeutral · 2021-05-04T02:38:36+00:00

Were closeted LGB at such a risk of suicide if they remained in the closet and did not openly express their sexual preference?

Also I have to imagine that the generational increase in empathy over time is proving to result in different activism as well. Although, that appears to be lost upon this sub.

RationalNeutral · 2021-05-04T02:35:08+00:00

The general idea is not that the actual raw number of transgender people has changed, just that the number of people who are feeling comfortable enough to be open / out and accepting treatment is increasing. If you had a group of 50 transgender people, and in hostile society 40 of them stayed in the closet, then this same hostile society became more accepting and suddenly only 10 are staying in the closet. You'd still have 50 transgender people in either circumstance. Just in a hostile society with 40 closeted people, those 40 people are in that high risk of suicide category, with only 10 open people properly receiving treatment. Meanwhile with the accepting society you only have 10 people in that high-risk of suicide category with 40 people openly receiving treatment. Overall in the more accepting society the suicide rate will go down.

RationalNeutral · 2021-05-03T22:03:18+00:00

And as a bonus, you have spent more time trying to disprove transgender theory to me than any transgender person has spent trying to prove transgender theory to me. Generally speaking, it takes a lot more effort to shove a lie down someone's throat than a truth.

RationalNeutral · 2021-05-03T21:26:49+00:00

I read the article you have linked, I don't understand how this article supplements what you've been saying?

I am aware that humans are psychologically wired to pair-bond (to form intimate relationships, to marry, etc.).

I am aware of the statistics of finding a partner while being transgender. That it is unlikely to happen. Although that specific person has worse odds than I do, that is beside the point.

Ever so, I will be happier as a transgender person. You might not be able to understand this, that is fine, I'm not asking you to.

The weird thing is you keep trying to tell yourself that this is something I have been convinced of... Far more effort has been spent on convincing me that I am NOT a trasngender. I have been abused into denying being transgender for a long time, and it has resurfaced multiple times because being in denial causes problems. If anything more effort has been spent on trying to rule out this conclusion than to support it. However, the evidence has been consistently in favor of being transgender.

A cultist doesn't go out of their way to challenge the cult's ideals to vett the ideals of the cult.

RationalNeutral · 2021-05-03T21:09:02+00:00

That is correct, on the one hand my mom believed the entire psychology profession was lacking ethics and that I would be treated like a lab rat.

On the other hand, my parents have a history of absolutely refusing to seek professional help at all costs:

I once had an ingrown toe-nail that they preferred to go at my foot with a knife and no anesthetic (maybe some hydrogen peroxide) and had the audacity to look at me as insane when I screamed in pain and ask "What are you screaming about? The neighbors will hear." Basically, the embarrassment of being heard was of greater concern than my well being as they continued to go at my toe with a knife.

This eventually required surgery from a specialist foot doctor. Partially because their own reluctance to seek help made the problem worse.

Prior to seeking out estrogen:

I first hired a therapist to discuss a bunch of workplace experiences and analyze the psychology of working in a foreign culture. Then worked with that therapist to present my findings to the company as a matter of trying to improve the corporate culture. I was at the point of "You work on improving this about your company or please fire me, which I know will take you months to legally establish so be prepared for the eventuality that I leave." They did not see any merit in improving the corporate culture so the foregone conclusion was I would part ways which we did roughly half a year later due to strict labor laws for that country.

After pitching that to the company, I and the therapist discussed the anhedonia and were exploring possible explanations. Nothing was really sticking or really fitting any of the DSM-5 criteria for various personality disorders or other possible explanations. Then the thought occurred to me to ask about being transgender and how my parents' abuse lead to me repressing it extremely deeply which along with it resulted in repressing my emotions. The experiences described did fit the DSM-5 criteria for gender dysphoria and then we started to explore with what crossdressing I could, changing pronouns, using virtual reality to have a gender-identity confirming body, and so forth. The evidence continues to accumulate in favor of being transgender despite us continually challenging the theory with new information as it manifests in life. After roughly half a year of testing that theory out, I went to a local clinic to get estrogen injections and the effects were profoundly positive. For the first couple of hours after the shot (while the estrogen was still making way into the blood stream) I was profoundly disappointed thinking that, oh, I guess this wasn't the answer after all... then when the estrogen hit the blood-brain barrier a lot of negative mental health symptoms just melted away. Some of which I had gotten so used to that I didn't know they even were an issue and was as happy as can be. Further injections don't result in as profound of a reaction, but the overall average is a lot happier and continues to get happier as time goes on.

RationalNeutral · 2021-05-03T20:39:23+00:00

You should realize I spent 14 years evaluating all other possible explanations, this is a very thoroughly vetted conclusion.

RationalNeutral · 2021-05-03T20:34:43+00:00

Sorry, I deleted and re-replied to make sure you read the edit.

RationalNeutral · 2021-05-03T20:33:39+00:00

Nothing. I first questioned when I was 14, parents abused me until I agreed to repress being transgender. Seeing that abuse, I decided to give the white cis-gendered male privileged experience the best go of it I could. I studied abroad to even see how a different culture would make my idiosyncrasies manifest differently so I could have a more objective understanding of myself. My mental health improved while I was abroad, but only because I was unaware of the fact that the entire time I was indulging in feminine expressions of that culture that just appealed to me naturally. Returning to a culture I knew and having to conform to male presentation steadily eroded away those mental health improvements.

Decided to try working in that foreign country again to see if there was something about that culture, but as I now understood the difference between masculine and feminine aspects of that culture, the absence of feminine expressions did not yield the same dramatic improvement in mental health that my study abroad experience yielded.

Not to mention, I had my dream job.

There literally is no other explanation for these mental health effects other than being transgender as I had gone through the arduous process of eliminating all other possible explanations one by one for 14 years. Then when I started estrogen the negative mental effects just evaporated away almost instantaneously. It still gradually continues to get better from here, but I can't ignore all the data accumulated so far.

RationalNeutral · 2021-05-03T20:01:23+00:00

If I realized that I was a man, I would place an order for a gas regulator, hose, and appropriate face mask for inert gas asphyxiation. I already have the 99.9% pure tank of helium gas from the last suicidal ideation, the idea was to place an order piece-wise once every week if weekly discussion with my therapist had no compelling reason to live. We only had one meeting before the curiosity of transitioning became a compelling reason to live.

The curiosity involved with transitioning is the only reason I am currently alive. So I'm going to be doing that to completion. If that is repulsive to 99% of people (it's not, but for the sake of argument let's say it is) that's fine by me. I'm not doing this for any sort of sexual gratification. I'm doing this for the sake of best possible mental health outcomes. As a matter of fact, I am assuming that I will not date anyone for the rest of my life, and doing this will make me the most happy regardless of what kind of romantic life I do or do not lead.

TL:DR; Gave the white cisgendered male experience the best shot I could, that chapter has ended and the transgender chapter has begun.

RationalNeutral · 2021-05-03T19:24:41+00:00

There is no doubt in my mind that for any minority of any kind that temptation exists and that some people distort the truth in order to fit it into a discrimination narrative that is convenient for them.

RationalNeutral · 2021-05-03T19:21:48+00:00

... So, if I understand this correctly your statement is that "Feminism invented gender until it was inconvenient so then it was like NO, NOT LIKE THAT."

As for comments on extrapolation, most of that extrapolation is based on hard science. I would encourage you to see transwomen as allies to feminist causes, but I'm not here to do that. I'm here to hear out your views to better inform my own.

RationalNeutral · 2021-05-03T19:09:23+00:00

I'm not knit-picking, that is literally what I wrote and meant. It is evidenced by the fact that is exactly what I wrote and people have a history of pointing out just how precise in my word choice I am.

I'm also literally here to fact-check that community by giving the opposing side an opportunity to voice their opinions.

As for your comments on god... I present lil-dicky

Transition can take you a long way, it can give you a lot mentally and physically but you do it at great expense.

Well, considering that I would have killed myself using inert gas asphyxiation in August, 2020 if not for pursuing transition, I feel like I'm in a bonus round of life. So, I mean, whatever risks exist are better than death.

RationalNeutral · 2021-05-03T19:00:09+00:00

Circling back...

Also, most TIMs who take exogenous estrogen also use powerful T blockers. How can you be sure that the changes in cellular function you claim are a result of exogenous (sex) hormones isn't due to powerful steroid hormone blockers like Spironolactone?

Because estradiol monotherapy is a thing, a great number of transgender people do not take a hormone blocker and just use an abundance of estradiol to suppress testosterone production down to acceptable levels. I am one such person.

I know of some doctors who start with hormone blockers and then after achieving an appropriate balance of estradiol in a person, switch to estradiol monotherapy as well.

As for the "Misogynistic, male centrist, male supremacist" part of your comment...

On the one hand, the level of contempt apparent in your comment makes it seem like your hatred of trangender people is really an outlet for a greater overarching hatred of men as a whole. Which, I mean, there are absolutely men who do terrible things that earn that ire, and if you've been subject to traumatic experiences, discrimination, or otherwise... you have my compassion and empathy. Given your views, I won't be able to help you overcome those matters, but I feel for you and wish the best for you.

To that end though, why do you apply that same hatred to TIFs? Lumping all transgender people together?

On the other hand...

My current understanding is that the only major difference between each sex are cumulative changes as a function of time and certain life changes that are influenced by sex hormones.

On a biochemical level, yes, I would view them as the same. If that weren't the case, there would be a need for a male-only covid vaccine and a female-only vaccine.

HRT stands for "hormone replacement therapy."

Exactly, in TIMs, you are replacing testosterone with estrogen.

In post-menopausal women, you are replenishing estrogen.

It's also not called Hormone Replenishment Therapy, but that is never the less what it does for post-menopausal women.

Why on earth would anyone think a good way - or the best way - to find out the impact of long-term HRT in us is to give female hormones to men and to study them?

Longer durations possible than post-menopausal cases.

RationalNeutral · 2021-05-03T18:36:48+00:00

I understand the etymology

mentally ill people who have been brainwashed into thinking it’s possible to change sex

Then why you do keep conflating gender with sex?

RationalNeutral · 2021-05-03T18:31:00+00:00

I chose my words carefully:

most similar to the sex that has that dominant sex hormone

Does not mean

the same as a woman

As to the meth addict comparison...

Doctors do actually have to take into account how much methamphetamine is in a patient's body though? Failure to do so could have some serious interactions between medicines. This includes dosing rates for anesthesia among other things.

Meanwhile, from my personal experiences with HRT, my mental facilities on testosterone had a lot of negative mental health effects most notably a complete lack of emotion. Whereas on estrogen those mental health effects are completely gone, I experience a wide range of emotionality now and I absolutely love it. I can't ignore this experience and the profoundly positive effects it has had on my life so far.

Although I am excited to be growing breasts with estrogen, I did very literally have a thought along the lines of "It's unfortunate this medicine will cause these body changes that will draw a lot of negative discrimination."

My personal thing is the mental health benefits from this outweigh all the negatives, feminization is just a side-effect, although a happy side-effect, a side-effect none-the-less.

RationalNeutral · 2021-05-03T18:19:13+00:00

As long as a doctor has clear logic to explain how they are arriving at the conclusion that a symptom is resulting from HRT, I don't have an issue with them looking at that first. However, if someone has a chronic disease before starting HRT, HRT isn't going to be the sudden cause of that chronic disease years later.

Likewise, if they have a clear explanation of how HRT causes the symptom at hand, I have no issue with that. It's only when HRT is being used as a lazy excuse to avoid doing proper diagnostic work, and it is clear that it completely unrelated that I have an issue with it.

RationalNeutral · 2021-05-03T18:12:18+00:00

I haven't read your comment in completion because I have 7 different threads that I am juggling at the moment.

From skimming you seem to be asking for the same evidence as a different thread... as such, I'm linking this response: https://saidit.net/s/GenderCritical/comments/7tfg/a_question_for_the_community/tb33

RationalNeutral · 2021-05-03T18:10:01+00:00

It is a chemistry prefix, so yes it does exist.

RationalNeutral · 2021-05-03T18:09:15+00:00

It's inherent in the word "Transgender" that they are cognizant of their gender is different from their sex.

Trans - > Across
Cis -> On the same side

Trans gender (Gender which is across from sex)
Cis Gender (Gender which is on the same side as sex)

It is a chemistry term repurposed for these kind of discussions.

RationalNeutral · 2021-05-03T18:05:27+00:00

If the doctors do know something, then it is part of their job to explain it on a level that the patient understands. Then, it is the patient's responsibility to take in that information and decide what they want to do with their body.

If a different dominant sex hormone affects bone density, wouldn't this suggest treating the patient as though they are most similar to the sex that has that dominant sex hormone?

RationalNeutral · 2021-05-03T18:00:54+00:00

On the one hand: If it did, explain the mechanism by which it does play a role. If it weren't a trend, would TIMs have a reason to hide that information in the first place?

RationalNeutral · 2021-05-03T17:38:20+00:00

Something that might be useful for your search would be cross-sex heart transplants: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-heart-transplant-idUKTRE4AB7FK20081112

I would suspect that if your claim holds as much as you propose, that a cross-sex heart transplant would fail 100% of the time, but the above article is showing a 15% failure rate for men-only. Which, suggests there is something more complicated going on.

Transgender medical research MIGHT help shed light on the nuances that can decrease that kind of risk.

The article points out that Male hearts vary in size from Women's hearts, which, could be exactly influenced by sex hormones (and not genetic makeup) during puberty.

So then the question might get posed do we see the same kind of rate of failures for pre-puberty heart transplants?

That's your rabbit hole to go down though, seeing as at the moment I'm attempting to prove your point for you on the suspicion you aren't going to put in the effort.

RationalNeutral · 2021-05-03T17:18:26+00:00

Why do I get the feeling you will fail to produce evidence after I produce mine? I'll be back in a moment.

Here's the first googled result: https://opentextbc.ca/biology/chapter/18-2-how-hormones-work/

And here's relevant sections:

The cell signaling pathways induced by the steroid hormones regulate specific genes on the cell’s DNA. The hormones and receptor complex act as transcription regulators by increasing or decreasing the synthesis of mRNA molecules of specific genes. This, in turn, determines the amount of corresponding protein that is synthesized by altering gene expression. This protein can be used either to change the structure of the cell or to produce enzymes that catalyze chemical reactions.

Hormones cause cellular changes by binding to receptors on target cells.

Lipid-derived (soluble) hormones can enter the cell by diffusing across the plasma membrane and binding to DNA to regulate gene transcription and to change the cell’s activities by inducing production of proteins that affect, in general, the long-term structure and function of the cell.

Then what of these people that are born with XY genetic makeup, some go on completely unaware of their genetic makeup living lives as women?: https://novonordiskfonden.dk/en/news/more-women-than-expected-are-genetically-men/

RationalNeutral · 2021-05-03T16:31:44+00:00

Those idiots don't tell people who they are and shit like this happens

Because of transgender broken arm syndrome... There have been literal reports of people coming in with a broken arm, and their doctor wants to do mental gymnastics to blame HRT.

RationalNeutral · 2021-05-03T16:24:10+00:00

As the name implies, bioidentical hormones are just that... hormones that are biologically identical to the hormones produced by the relevant sex organ. Estrogen bioidenticals, for example, were originally developed for the treatment of post-menopausal symptoms of women. TIMs offer an opportunity to study the longer-term effects of HRT treatment than post-menopause cases can offer.

Meanwhile, what evidence do you have to support the claim of heart attack symptoms being as you describe?

RationalNeutral · 2021-05-03T14:44:09+00:00

Some cells do fundamentally alter their function in response to exogenous hormones. Some don't. The specifics of which are incompletely understood due to insufficient research in this field of medicine. Hence, more information is needed by doing that research.

RationalNeutral · 2021-05-03T14:39:41+00:00

If that were the case, this exact same medical research being funded would prove your claim though, wouldn't it?

RationalNeutral · 2021-05-03T13:58:42+00:00

This would be a good reason for funding medical research on transgender people. Not just to be better able to treat transgender people, but to also improve the precision in the understanding of medicine as it applies to cisgender people.

RationalNeutral · 2021-05-03T13:18:28+00:00

He hasn't tried transitioning yet, but I don't know if that's because he's too lazy to do anything to change or because he realized he was wrong. Either way, he hasn't admitted anything.

Just food for thought, usually many transgender people will spend anywhere from a few months to several years debating with themselves whether or not their suspected identity is actually accurate for their situation. I can imagine that if they have not done anything thus far, they may simply be sorting through their emotions/background to figure out if there is some other explanation for this desire before taking more serious action. They could also be trying out cross-dressing little by little in their own privacy to again verify if this is something they truly need.

white morbidly obese middle aged gay neckbeard ginger gamer. A living stereotype. He [demonstrates a long list of self-neglect that could be a symptom of depression]

I'm curious to hear your thoughts on the following theory:

Self-neglect like what you describe could be a symptom of depression. If dysphoria is causing this depression, maybe transitioning will slowly help alleviate that depression, and then without that influence will better be able to take better care of themselves and become the very kind of hard-working TIM you previously respected.

Overcoming depression, whatever the source, will require understanding the source of that depression and working on oneself. Gender identity-based dysphoria may just be one possible explanation they are exploring.

I completely agree with your disgust, even having been that exact same living stereotype at one point in time.

RationalNeutral · 2021-05-02T22:26:25+00:00

Inert Gas Asphyxiation

RationalNeutral · 2021-05-02T22:24:54+00:00

Yeah... it's not exactly... r/eyebleach or anything like that.

RationalNeutral · 2021-05-02T16:06:25+00:00

If he weren't running for office, this might have been useful, but since he's already come out as not just republican but wanting to represent the party as the governor, he'll just be seen as following the party line.

Given the history /u/MarkTwainiac pointed out in their comment, how could you not?

Alternatively, wouldn't it be cherry-picking to ignore that context and try to claim this is their true opinion uninfluenced by the party line?

RationalNeutral · 2021-05-02T15:24:51+00:00

Are you talking about this part?:

The earlier version of the bill, which passed the Florida House 77-40 on 14 April, contained a dispute resolution clause that would have allowed a school to inspect the genitals of any athlete subject to a complaint. The amended version of the bill passed by the Florida senate allowed scrutiny of a student’s birth certificate to suffice.

“We are told it’s a compromise because we’re no longer inspecting the genitals of children in schools,” the Democratic house representative Carlos Guillermo Smith, who identifies as LGBTQ, said on Wednesday during the house debate. “Members, not inspecting children’s genitals is not a compromise.”

RationalNeutral