Intersectionalism is the worst thing to happen to feminism.

submitted by medium_tomato from self.GenderCritical

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[–]MenAreFragileBabies 16 insightful - 2 fun16 insightful - 1 fun17 insightful - 2 fun -  (19 children)

Things like crying when criticized for being racist, for example. It can be done in a calculated manner to shut black people up, including black women. The K*ren slur originally comes from white women doing things like that, or calling the police on black people for being black. Of course now it's just used to oppress white women generally or to ridicule any older white woman who has a complaint, which shows how fuzzy these lines can get. The tools we use to attack black people, as white women, are usually the same things that are our oppression.

[–]lefterfield 39 insightful - 1 fun39 insightful - 0 fun40 insightful - 1 fun -  (18 children)

Skeptical about the crying thing. This has been a misogynist attack against women generally, that we manipulate men with our tears. Being called racist would be upsetting if you're a generally nice person, and could cause some to be so distressed they start crying. Most people don't have that much control over their emotional reactions. The "Karen" slur originally came from a misogynist male on reddit who wanted to bash his ex-wife.

[–][deleted] 25 insightful - 3 fun25 insightful - 2 fun26 insightful - 3 fun -  (1 child)

The Karen slur actually started with a Dane Cook comedy skit in 2005, before being started up in 2017 by the reddit user fuck_you_karen. I keep hearing it originated in black women circles, but I've yet to see the evidence of that, while there's plenty of evidence it started with and is mostly used by white men.

[–]MenAreFragileBabies 10 insightful - 2 fun10 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Fair enough, I keep hearing that too and just assumed it was true. All the more reason to oppose it-- I absolutely hate it, it's sexist as hell to throw that term around and giggle.

[–]MenAreFragileBabies 6 insightful - 2 fun6 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 2 fun -  (13 children)

Sure, it's a natural reaction to cry. It's also something that shuts down criticism. It can be both. I personally think that our being socialized to cry easily is very handicapping, as is men's socialization to not cry ever. Crying should be a rare but powerfully meaningful social cue that anyone should respect when it happens. As it is, white women cry so much that it is just a commonplace defense mechanism. No one really takes us any more seriously when white women cry; quite the opposite.

Fair on the origins of the K*ren slur, I've been beat over the head with that story so many times I assumed it was true. But I don't really know if it is.

[–]Shesstealthy 19 insightful - 1 fun19 insightful - 0 fun20 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Survey of one, but I cried very easily as a girl and was vilified for it. It's not applauded or encouraged.

[–]lefterfield 15 insightful - 1 fun15 insightful - 0 fun16 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

That suggests it's not an effective weapon, though, nor a racist one. I don't think women should be criticized for bad socialization lessons - acknowledge that it's the product of socialization and work to undo the harmful effects, sure. But accusing them of weaponizing a behavior they were taught to do, and in some cases punished for NOT doing... not really fair.

[–]MenAreFragileBabies 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Should we accuse men of weaponizing their behaviors, even if they were raised with them and it's hard for them to undo that socialization? Of course, we do it all the time here. Why should we treat ourselves any differently? Radical change starts with us, and it's not supposed to be easy.

It really is not fair, but it IS our responsibility to change the things about ourselves that are holding us back. I think crying too easily is one of those things. It's a really hard thing to curb in yourself, no doubt. But it is performing femininity, and it is manipulative, even if we don't mean for it to be that way.

[–]Anna_Nym 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Crying is an emotional reaction. It's rarely something people do on purpose and I don't know of a single "Karen" story or video that actually includes tears. The idea of tears as manipulative is something that I've always seen on MRA sites, and I think it's weird and troubling that it was imported into contemporary feminism with so little data or pushback.

[–]lefterfield 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

No, I don't agree that we accuse men of "weaponizing masculinity." We accuse them of being violent, of being entitled to our spaces and our bodies by their actions and their words. But accusing women crying of being manipulative is saying that crying itself is harmful - you're assuming that when certain groups do it, they intend harm. In that case, raise the question: Who is allowed to cry, under what circumstances, in order to prove that they're not being manipulative?

Now, I agree that people should change socialized behaviors that cause harm to them or to those around them. But accusing women of being manipulative by showing emotion is a misogynistic tactic, and it's not an argument for why women shouldn't cry in public. Sometimes, women should cry in public. Sometimes, men should cry in public. This bullshit about women being manipulative is just that - men are every bit as manipulative, emotionally or otherwise, just their behavior is rarely called such.

[–]immersang 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Thank you for putting this so very well.

[–]jet199 15 insightful - 1 fun15 insightful - 0 fun16 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

Any evidence that women are socialised to cry more rather than it being a biology based reaction? Seeing as that difference between men and women crying exists in every culture in the world while gender roles differ.

You seem to have fallen for the misogynistic lie that woman only show emotion to manipulate and don't actually have human feelings you need to worry about.

[–]Realwoman 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

No evidence. Women cry more than men, that's why crying is considered inferior. It's pure misogyny

[–][deleted] 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

In my culture, there was no punishment for men crying. Women on the other hand had to take abuse with a smile. Kind of like Ju Li from the Earth Kingdom. Women don’t cry more than men. That’s an American manifestation of gender.

[–]MenAreFragileBabies 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

You've gone too far the other way. Of course everyone should be allowed to cry. Everyone has feelings, and some people feel more strongly and are more sensitive than others. But why is it always that women seem to cry more and are more sensitive? It's just gender performance. There's nothing innate about whether boys or girls cry more before the age of about 5-7. Yet boys stop crying as much from the time they enter school (at least openly), while girls cry comparatively more.

I don't have any statistics to back this up, just a lifetime of living around men and other women in the United States. It seems to be the consensus on this thread that women do cry more, with the exception of one commenter who says it's the opposite in her country. Some are looking for a biological basis for this behavior. I don't know why on a gender critical forum folks are so defensive about their female right to crying, but that goes against everything we stand for here to say it's just "female brain".

I get that it's hard to be critical of a comforting behavior we all are raised to do (with the exception of one person), but crying a lot is gender performance. And it holds us back.

[–]Maeven 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

If children stop crying it's because they're being punished for crying. That's not performative it's abusive. They don't have conscious control over it.

I'm female and yet I stopped crying publicly as a child, too. I know EXACTLY why boys stop crying.

Men suffer from patriarchy? Yes, in some ways they DO.

[–]chrysthefeminist 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I don't understand this women cry easily and more than men business. I am a woman and I didn't cry for years. I still mostly don't cry at all.

[–]Realwoman 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I wasn't socialized to cry. I was socialized to not let other people see me cry and I would hold back my tears as well as I can. I still cry easily. I try not to let others see me and I cry in private unless I can't help it. I've been accused of crying manipulatively. Don't spread this myth

[–]PenseePansy 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Most people don't have that much control over their emotional reactions.

THIS! Esp. since professional actors, no less-- including the most highly-skilled ones-- often can't cry on command! (It's apparently not a common ability, even for them.) So I've always had my doubts about the average woman being able to pull this off.

Which doesn't mean that they (or, for that matter, men/boys/girls) don't TRY; I've witnessed numerous public examples of fake-crying over the years. But there's something I've noticed about these: the tip-off that they ARE fake. Remember Susan Smith? Young, white, claimed that some black guy came outta nowhere and murdered her kids, turned out that she did it? Memorable playing-the-sympathy-card-via-ostensible-bawling there (at least till she 'fessed up): whole lotta sad facial expressions & sobbing voice... but never any actual tears. 'Cause THAT'S what "crying" really is, apparently: overwhelming tearful emotion. If you remain suspiciously dry-eyed throughout? Odds are that you're just pretending.

Also, though? "Genuine crying" is NOT proof that you're the victim! Could just mean that, as the victimizer, you're sad about, and/or scared of, being held accountable for your shitty actions.

[–]lefterfield 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

"Genuine crying" is NOT proof that you're the victim! Could just mean that, as the victimizer, you're sad about, and/or scared of, being held accountable for your shitty actions.

Yeah, it could be. Just because someone's upset, doesn't mean they're right or that they're owed sympathy from others. But on average, in the absence of other evidence, I'd lean toward saying that if someone looks genuinely upset, they probably are.