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[–]circlingmyownvoid2 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (102 children)

I actually wouldn’t mind that. If being “non-binary” wasn’t considered part man I could accept that. Non- man is a pretty ugly phrase but I’ve said before in a vaccum I wouldn’t need to be called a woman as long as I wasn’t called a man but we live in a binary society. Everything is split by sexes so you have to pick one and I’d rather be dead than a man so …

[–]BiologyIsReal 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (13 children)

No one gets to pick their sex like if it were some clothes that you buy from a store. Sex is determined at conception depending on which sex chromosomes you have. Humans cannot change their sex, not naturally nor with the aid of medical technology.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (12 children)

Never said they could. I don’t deny I’m male. But that isn’t the question .

[–]BiologyIsReal 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (11 children)

Uhh, yes, it's part of the question because you're asking us we completely ignore your sex or the sex of other trans identified people in any context. All because you all don't want to be grouped with other people of your sex. You may not deny you're a male, but that it's meaningless if you expect we don't treat you like one.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (10 children)

if you expect we don’t treat you like one

This has always been my point. If you treat trans women like men, we don’t get protections because men don’t need protections. We never get access to faculties because “the men’s is right there”. We get shoved unprotected into male prisons to be rape dolls because “they’re still men afterall”. The reason trans women have had to struggle with nothing for a century and the reason that we suffer at the hands of men who want us to act like “real men” is exactly because you all want to treat us as just men.

[–]BiologyIsReal 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

Many GC are not against third spaces. It's mostly trans identified people who don't want them or say they will never be built...

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

They’re even harder to Justify if society considers us as “men asking for even more”.

[–]BiologyIsReal 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

Society already knows "transwomen" are actually men asking for more... Many people won't admit it out loud but no one really believes TWAW. If males who identify as trans weren't viewed as men they would have be given nothing by society. They wouldn't be believed when you talk about suicide and murder. They wouldn't be able to get away with saying or doing many outrageous things. That is not like how women are treated. At all.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

Way to prove my Point.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Way to ignore the point lol

[–]BiologyIsReal 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

How am I proving your point when I'm saying that being viewed as men has not affected males who identify as trans's advocacy?

[–]MarkTwainiac 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (87 children)

Good to know. Some pro-trans orgs and people have tried to foist the label "non man" on female people against our wills. But it suits you much more than it does us.

BTW, the sex binary isn't a creation of "society" - it's nature's doing. Moreover, the issue with gender identity is gender - which isn't binary. There are all kinds of ways for an individuals to be.

There have always been guys who've been unconventional for their sex. But only in recent years have such males begun using their lack of affinity for the sex stereotypes associated with their sex as an excuse to make fatuous claims that they are of the opposite sex and to demand that female people accommodate them by giving up our rights to self-definition, safety, privacy, dignity, fairness in sports - and to make it impossible for girls and women to ever be away from males even for a moment.

Also, it's really not true that "everything is split by sexes" at least not in the West any more. Historically, girls & women were excluded from many spheres of life because of our sex, but that's no longer the case. Just a few things are split by sex nowadays, and it's where sex really matters: sports, toilets, locker rooms, change rooms, health care, prisons, etc.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (86 children)

Good to know. Some pro-trans orgs and people have tried to foist the label "non man" on female people against our wills. But it suits you much more than it does us.

I directly said that was an ugly term but whatever.

BTW, the sex binary isn't a creation of "society" - it's nature's doing. Moreover, the issue with gender identity is gender - which isn't binary. There are all kinds of ways for an individuals to be.

Treating everyone differently and separating everyone by sex is a creation of society. Gender isn’t just what you like. It’s identity.

There have always been guys who've been unconventional for their sex.

Good?

But only in recent years have such males begun using their lack of affinity for the sex stereotypes associated with their sex as an excuse to make fatuous claims that they are of the opposite sex and to demand that female people accommodate them by giving up our rights to self-definition, safety, privacy, dignity, fairness in sports - and to make it impossible for girls and women to ever be away from males even for a moment.

Define recently. Bottom surgery itself in 90 years old. And if you include non-binary identities like the Hijra literally thousands of years.

Also, it's really not true that "everything is split by sexes" at least not in the West any more. Historically, girls & women were excluded from many spheres of life because of our sex, but that's no longer the case. Just a few things are split by sex nowadays, and it's where sex really matters: sports, toilets, locker rooms, change rooms, health care, prisons, etc.

Bathrooms and changing rooms determine most of access to society. Health care determines whether we live or die and “trans broken arm syndrome” is very real. And putting trans women in men’s prison is basically guaranteeing they will be raped.

[–]MarkTwainiac 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (85 children)

Bathrooms and changing rooms determine most of access to society.

Male people have never been denied toilets, change rooms, clubs, education, sports, the right to vote or anything else limiting their "access to society" based on their sex. Only female people have been. If some males don't want to share toilets and change rooms with others of your sex, then campaign for additional options for you. Stop invading and trying to take over girls and women's spaces.

Define recently. Bottom surgery itself in 90 years old. And if you include non-binary identities like the Hijra literally thousands of years.

By recently I mean since the mid-1970s - so a bit under 50 years, though the trans assault on women's rights has only gotten ferocious and gone mainstream over the past 20 years.

I don't think any surgeries done on "male to female transsexuals" 90 years ago are analogous to what's called "bottom surgery" today. The modern method of penile inversion to create a pelvic cavity was pioneered by Georges Burou in the late 1950s. However, male castration has been around for thousands of years.

As for the Hijra in India/South Asia - this and other similar categories in other cultures are special sex castes created for gay men to separate them from other men. Hijra have nothing to do with women.

putting trans women in men’s prison is basically guaranteeing they will be raped.

Male-on-male violence is for males to sort out amongst yourselves. Putting males who identify as trans into women's prisons doesn't just guarantee that women will be raped, it guarantees that women will be locked in with males who will menace, intimidate, bully, perv on and otherwise abuse them - and some women will become pregnant as a result.

Most males who identify as trans are sexually attracted to women. The ones who end up in prison have very high rates of sexual offending against women and children. In the UK, statistics released by the Ministry of Justice in 2020 show that more than 58% of the males who identify as trans incarcerated in prison in England and Wales in 2019 had at least one conviction for a criminal sex offense. This compares to 17% of the male prison population overall, and 3% of the female prison population.

https://committees.parliament.uk/writtenevidence/18973/pdf/

Even homosexual males who identify as trans are often misogynistic and full of rage towards women, and since they have male bodies and assets like male grip strength, upper body size and hand size, they can easily overpower females. These same features also give homosexual males a fighting chance to defend themselves if/when physically assaulted by another male. Women don't have that same fighting chance.

Also, trans-identified males are not the only ones who are vulnerable to physical and sexual assault by other males in prison. If this one group of guys should be put in with the women, why not all males who are skinny, frail, weak, good-looking, very young, old, sickly, physically disabled, mentally slow, traumatized, mentally ill and so on? Why not all the males who are child molesters or serving time for collecting images of children being sexually abused by other men? After all, "nonces" are at great risk of assault and rape by other males in prison too.

Finally, not all incarcerated homosexual males who today would fall under the "trans" umbrella are champing at the bit to be placed in women's prisons. Many prefer male facilities because in men's prisons they have a chance to have male-on-male sex and intimacy, to keep the dream of "meeting a guy" and falling in love with him alive, and to hook up IRL with another guy who will care for and protect them. In male prisons, these males often are valued for their ability to give blow jobs, their willingness to playact "in the female role" in penetrative penile anal sex, and their ability to smuggle contraband into and around the premises by stuffing it far up their bums. In women's prisons, these inmates aren't anywhere near as highly valued - and there's zero demand for their blow jobs, for them to be bottoms in anal-penile sex, or for their skills in using their anuses for smuggling.

Health care determines whether we live or die and “trans broken arm syndrome” is very real.

Women's health care needs have been ignored since medicine began. A lot more money and resources have been and are being put into "trans health care" than into areas like endometriosis, pregnancy complications, high maternal mortality, childbirth injuries, menopause and the health problems of elderly women. Now gynecologists are being expected to provide health care and prescribe and monitor the pharmaceutical hormones of trans-identified persons of both sexes. Males who identify as trans are also demanding that gynecologists - most of whom are female - provide them with care following genital surgeries, and prostate exams too - tasks that are in the wheelhouse of urologists and andrologists, and for which those sorts of specialists are specifically trained. This is diverting time, attention, resources and knowledge from female-specific health care and giving it to male and female trans people whose health care is experimental and who have health care problems that are of their own choosing, and which gynecologists are not trained to handle. It's also turning gynecology away from female-specific health care to males with male-specific health care issues. How is this just?

Lots of people have trouble accessing medical care for all sorts of reasons, and have our symptoms and problems ignored or pooh-poohed. Trans people have no idea what it's like to trying to obtain medical care for persons who have a rare or "orphan disease," or several rare and poorly-misunderstood medical conditions at once.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (84 children)

Trans women are denied access to those spaces. You are saying we shouldn’t be in yours and the imminent threat of bodily injury says we can’t be in the other. In what way is that not being restricted?

I don't think any surgeries done on "male to female transsexuals" 90 years ago are analogous to what's called "bottom surgery" today. The modern method of penile inversion to create a pelvic cavity was pioneered by Georges Burou in the late 1950s. However, male castration has been around for thousands of years.

The Hirschfeld (etc) surgeries were at least analogous and were conducted in the early 1930’s. And castration to distance yourself from being seen as a man has existed for thousands of years and was the best available option for dysphoria then. I’m glad you can acknowledge that.

As for the Hijra in India/South Asia - this and other similar categories in other cultures are special sex castes created for gay men to separate them from other men. Hijra have nothing to do with women.

They aren’t treated as men. It’s not a sub class of men. They aren’t seen or treated as men which is precisely my point.

Male-on-male violence is for males to sort out amongst yourselves.

So you admit you are fine with sending trans women to be rape toys for men?

Putting males who identify as trans into women's prisons doesn't just guarantee that women will be raped, it guarantees that women will be locked in with males who will menace, intimidate, bully, perv on and otherwise abuse them - and some women will become pregnant as a result.

Putting a trans woman in women’s prison in no way guarantees any of those things. Leaving aside the utter lack of proof of violent crime rates among trans women that’s a wild swing. Hell most trans women couldn’t even impregnate someone.

You know I’m not even arguing for putting trans women with natal women though. I’ve always said dedicated facilities were the best answer but have fun fighting the straw man.

Most males who identify as trans are sexually attracted to women

And most trans women are attracted to men. Being gay doesn’t predispose you to violence.

The ones who end up in prison have very high rates of sexual offending against women and children.

Unless I’m wrong the statistsics you cite include prostitition which makes that statistic as violence indicator suspect at best.

Even homosexual males who identify as trans are often misogynistic and full of rage towards women, and since they have male bodies and assets like male grip strength, upper body size and hand size, they can easily overpower females.

Trans women don’t have the same bodies as gay men. Hormones preicipitously reduce strength and gay men are less hated than trans women and less likely to be subject to violence. A trans woman on hormones cannot win a fight against a cis man. Ever.

Also, trans-identified males are not the only ones who are vulnerable to physical and sexual assault by other males in prison. If this one group of guys should be put in with the women, why not all males who are skinny, frail, weak, good-looking, very young, old, sickly, physically disabled, mentally slow, traumatized, mentally ill and so on? Why not all the males who are child molesters or serving time for collecting images of children being sexually abused by other men? After all, "nonces" are at great risk of assault and rape by other males in prison too.

Because most of them are physically able and therefore better able to protect themselves and also to hurt natal and trans women. They have “high risk” wards but trans women aren’t any safer than than in male genpop. Also trans women don’t pose the sexual risk cis men do.

Women's health care needs have been ignored since medicine began. A lot more money and resources have been and are being put into "trans health care" than into areas like endometriosis, pregnancy complications, high maternal mortality, childbirth injuries, menopause and the health problems of elderly women. Now gynecologists are being expected to provide health care and prescribe and monitor the pharmaceutical hormones of trans-identified persons of both sexes. Males who identify as trans are also demanding that gynecologists provide them with care following genital surgeries, and prostate exams too. This is diverting time, attention, resources and knowledge from female-specific health care and giving it to males with male-specific health care issues. How is this just?

How is me being denied a flu shot because I am trans? How is that trans women who died a few years back (I believe in Pakistan but I am not positive) after 6 hours in a lobby because they wouldn’t put her in the men’s or women’s wards? How is when you being told by a gp that they won’t prescribe you medicine for an unrelated condition unless you stop hormones “just in case”?

[–]BiologyIsReal[M] 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (71 children)

So you admit you are fine with sending trans women to be rape toys for men?

That is not what she said at all. I suggest you don't throw baseless acussations like this, particularly NOT when talking about rape. You don't have a good track record on this topic.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (70 children)

She literally said. “That’s for you to sort you amongst yourselves”. In what way is that distinct from “I’m fine with this happening”?

[–]BiologyIsReal 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (69 children)

Women cannot solve male on male violence. If you didn't notice, men don't listen when women speak up about male on female violence. I don't know why you think men would act different if women speaked up against male on male violence. We're also not the ones telling men to abuse you.

Also, it's absurd males who identify as trans males expect us to solve all your problems with male violence when you don't do anything about violence against women. In fact many of said males commit violence against women, advocate for policies that will hurt women or pretend this doesn't happen.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (68 children)

Women cannot solve male on male violence. If you didn't notice, men don't listen when women speak up about male on female violence. I don't know why you think men would act different if women speaked up against male on male violence.

You have a better chance than we do.

And you aren’t saying “hurt them” but you are saying to treat us like men and lock us up with men. That’s not much of a distinction.

[–]MarkTwainiac 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (48 children)

Women are not responsible for male-on-male violence. So stop blaming us, and stop telling me that sorting out all the male-on-male violence in the world is women's job. And stop telling us that unless women promise to solve the problem of male-on-male violence for you, girls and women as a class must be punished for it by giving up our own safety, dignity and privacy by opening up all our spaces to predatory males.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

What are you doing to make sure Flint has water? What are you doing to make sure the children of illegal immigrants who have been separated from their parents are being taken care of and returned to their families? Are you sponsoring the people in other countries who need food and shelter? Are you making sure that victims of domestic violence have safe spaces? Are you making sure that homeless people allover find shelter?

Or do you understand that it’s not your job to save the world?

Women understand that it’s not our job to save TW. You need to understand that too.

[–]BiologyIsReal 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (12 children)

I literally told you I'm not against third spaces, but whatever.

[–]MarkTwainiac 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

And most trans women are attracted to men.

That's just a bald-faced lie, which is low even for no-evidence ever you. At least 75% of "trans women" are heterosexual males. This has always been the case and is even more so nowadays compared to the 60s, 70s and 80s because of the successes of the gay rights movement.

Prominent "trans women" who are heterosexual males, all of them previously married to women and fathers, include Jan Morris, Renee Richards, Caitlyn Jenner, Martine Rothblatt, Jennifer Finney Boylan, Jennifer Pritzker, Rachel Levine, Marci Bowers, Zoe Tur, and Dana Rivers, the one who killed two lesbians and their son in Berkeley CA a few years back. Leading lights of Genderland today include such heterosexual males as literary bigwigs Grace Lavery and Andrea Long Chu.

Being gay doesn’t predispose you to violence.

No, of course it doesn't. I never said it did. But at the same time, being gay doesn't remove males from the male sex class which has male patterns of violence, criminality and sex offending. Just as claiming a trans identity doesn't make males any less prone to violence and criminality either.

Leaving aside the utter lack of proof of violent crime rates among trans women that’s a wild swing.

I provided you with evidence from the UK Ministry of Justice that shows 58% of the "trans women" in prison in England and Wales in 2019 had at least one conviction for a criminal sex offense. How is that "utter lack of proof of violent crime rates" amongst this group?

In the US, for example, TW have much higher rates of incarceration compared to other males of their same race, age, place of origin and residence, level of education, employment history, etc. For example, depending on which source you go by, the proportion of black TW in the US who already have served a sentenc in jail or prison due to ranges from a low of 49% to nearly 65%. Those are much higher rates of being sentenced to incarceration than black males across the board. At the time when black males' incarceration rates were the highest in the US (at the turn of the 21st century), 33% of them could expect to be sentenced to time in jail or prison in the course of their lives. Now the lifetime incarceration rate for black males has dropped considerably, to under 20%.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

The only large scale survey I ever saw had trans women as approximately 33 percent straight, 33 percent bi, and 33 percent gay. That means the majority are attracted to men.

[–]BiologyIsReal 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

Is sexual orientation defined by the authors as based on sex or "gender identity"? Because if it is the latter, as it's likely, then that survey is saying most are sexually attracted to women...

Edit: also are the three numbers exactly 33%, really...?

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

And also that most are attracted to men. As I said.

[–]BiologyIsReal 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

It would be 50:50 supposing you're not making those numbers up, which I'm sceptical...

[–]nausicaa 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

This study came out in 2021 and looks at the sexuality of trans people in several countries in Europe.

For trans women:

-21% were attracted to men only

-51% were attracted to both men and women

-20% were attracted to women only

-0.6% were attracted to trans people only

-5% responded "not applicable"

For trans men:

-7% were attracted to men only

-29% were attracted to both men and women

-55% were attracted to women only

-0.9% were attracted to trans people only

-4% responded "not applicable"

[–]MarkTwainiac 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

And castration to distance yourself from being seen as a man has existed for thousands of years and was the best available option for dysphoria then. I’m glad you can acknowledge that.

You really don't know much or anything about history beyond the narrow slice that supports trans ideology.

Most males who were castrated historically were not castrated because it "was the best available option for dysphoria then." It was coz eunuchs and castrati has special roles in places like China and Italy. And because Arab slavers castrated the millions of black African boys and men they took into captivity.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I didn’t say that they were. Political eunuchs and such existed, but so did those who didn’t want to be seen as men.