Qt/tra, how does identity form?

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[–]circlingmyownvoid2 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (84 children)

Trans women are denied access to those spaces. You are saying we shouldn’t be in yours and the imminent threat of bodily injury says we can’t be in the other. In what way is that not being restricted?

I don't think any surgeries done on "male to female transsexuals" 90 years ago are analogous to what's called "bottom surgery" today. The modern method of penile inversion to create a pelvic cavity was pioneered by Georges Burou in the late 1950s. However, male castration has been around for thousands of years.

The Hirschfeld (etc) surgeries were at least analogous and were conducted in the early 1930’s. And castration to distance yourself from being seen as a man has existed for thousands of years and was the best available option for dysphoria then. I’m glad you can acknowledge that.

As for the Hijra in India/South Asia - this and other similar categories in other cultures are special sex castes created for gay men to separate them from other men. Hijra have nothing to do with women.

They aren’t treated as men. It’s not a sub class of men. They aren’t seen or treated as men which is precisely my point.

Male-on-male violence is for males to sort out amongst yourselves.

So you admit you are fine with sending trans women to be rape toys for men?

Putting males who identify as trans into women's prisons doesn't just guarantee that women will be raped, it guarantees that women will be locked in with males who will menace, intimidate, bully, perv on and otherwise abuse them - and some women will become pregnant as a result.

Putting a trans woman in women’s prison in no way guarantees any of those things. Leaving aside the utter lack of proof of violent crime rates among trans women that’s a wild swing. Hell most trans women couldn’t even impregnate someone.

You know I’m not even arguing for putting trans women with natal women though. I’ve always said dedicated facilities were the best answer but have fun fighting the straw man.

Most males who identify as trans are sexually attracted to women

And most trans women are attracted to men. Being gay doesn’t predispose you to violence.

The ones who end up in prison have very high rates of sexual offending against women and children.

Unless I’m wrong the statistsics you cite include prostitition which makes that statistic as violence indicator suspect at best.

Even homosexual males who identify as trans are often misogynistic and full of rage towards women, and since they have male bodies and assets like male grip strength, upper body size and hand size, they can easily overpower females.

Trans women don’t have the same bodies as gay men. Hormones preicipitously reduce strength and gay men are less hated than trans women and less likely to be subject to violence. A trans woman on hormones cannot win a fight against a cis man. Ever.

Also, trans-identified males are not the only ones who are vulnerable to physical and sexual assault by other males in prison. If this one group of guys should be put in with the women, why not all males who are skinny, frail, weak, good-looking, very young, old, sickly, physically disabled, mentally slow, traumatized, mentally ill and so on? Why not all the males who are child molesters or serving time for collecting images of children being sexually abused by other men? After all, "nonces" are at great risk of assault and rape by other males in prison too.

Because most of them are physically able and therefore better able to protect themselves and also to hurt natal and trans women. They have “high risk” wards but trans women aren’t any safer than than in male genpop. Also trans women don’t pose the sexual risk cis men do.

Women's health care needs have been ignored since medicine began. A lot more money and resources have been and are being put into "trans health care" than into areas like endometriosis, pregnancy complications, high maternal mortality, childbirth injuries, menopause and the health problems of elderly women. Now gynecologists are being expected to provide health care and prescribe and monitor the pharmaceutical hormones of trans-identified persons of both sexes. Males who identify as trans are also demanding that gynecologists provide them with care following genital surgeries, and prostate exams too. This is diverting time, attention, resources and knowledge from female-specific health care and giving it to males with male-specific health care issues. How is this just?

How is me being denied a flu shot because I am trans? How is that trans women who died a few years back (I believe in Pakistan but I am not positive) after 6 hours in a lobby because they wouldn’t put her in the men’s or women’s wards? How is when you being told by a gp that they won’t prescribe you medicine for an unrelated condition unless you stop hormones “just in case”?

[–]BiologyIsReal[M] 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (71 children)

So you admit you are fine with sending trans women to be rape toys for men?

That is not what she said at all. I suggest you don't throw baseless acussations like this, particularly NOT when talking about rape. You don't have a good track record on this topic.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (70 children)

She literally said. “That’s for you to sort you amongst yourselves”. In what way is that distinct from “I’m fine with this happening”?

[–]BiologyIsReal 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (69 children)

Women cannot solve male on male violence. If you didn't notice, men don't listen when women speak up about male on female violence. I don't know why you think men would act different if women speaked up against male on male violence. We're also not the ones telling men to abuse you.

Also, it's absurd males who identify as trans males expect us to solve all your problems with male violence when you don't do anything about violence against women. In fact many of said males commit violence against women, advocate for policies that will hurt women or pretend this doesn't happen.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (68 children)

Women cannot solve male on male violence. If you didn't notice, men don't listen when women speak up about male on female violence. I don't know why you think men would act different if women speaked up against male on male violence.

You have a better chance than we do.

And you aren’t saying “hurt them” but you are saying to treat us like men and lock us up with men. That’s not much of a distinction.

[–]MarkTwainiac 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (48 children)

Women are not responsible for male-on-male violence. So stop blaming us, and stop telling me that sorting out all the male-on-male violence in the world is women's job. And stop telling us that unless women promise to solve the problem of male-on-male violence for you, girls and women as a class must be punished for it by giving up our own safety, dignity and privacy by opening up all our spaces to predatory males.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (47 children)

Then stop pushing for policies that get violence done to us?

[–]MarkTwainiac 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (46 children)

Show me where I have ever pushed "for policies that get violence done to" anyone.

Again, stop blaming women for male violence. Males who are violent are not reading and listening to feminists like me. Your constant blaming of women for what men do is pure misogyny.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (45 children)

You are actively pushing for us to be treated like men in all respect. The direct result of that is us being stuck with men and subjected to their violence. It’s a direct causal link. Just because it isn’t your fist doesn’t mean you aren’t cheering on the cause of it landing.

[–]BiologyIsReal[M] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (44 children)

The irony is completely lost on you...

And stop with the baseless acussations. This is my last warning.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

What are you doing to make sure Flint has water? What are you doing to make sure the children of illegal immigrants who have been separated from their parents are being taken care of and returned to their families? Are you sponsoring the people in other countries who need food and shelter? Are you making sure that victims of domestic violence have safe spaces? Are you making sure that homeless people allover find shelter?

Or do you understand that it’s not your job to save the world?

Women understand that it’s not our job to save TW. You need to understand that too.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

What are you doing to make sure Flint has water? What are you doing to make sure the children of illegal immigrants who have been separated from their parents are being taken care of and returned to their families? Are you sponsoring the people in other countries who need food and shelter?

No but I’m Also not advocating for their situation to be worse.

As to the shelters, I donate when I can and Work with the local food bank but not more than that.

If you aren’t willing to help them stop arguing for policies that hurt us.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Women are advocating for themselves. If advocating for what women need has a negative effect on people who aren’t women who invaded their safe spaces and disrupted their rights that’s not our fault. It’s the fault of the people who invaded our spaces and disrupted our rights.

We aren’t arguing for or about You AT ALL. We are advocating for ourselves.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

You are arguing for policies that hurt us. The acting like any harm is our responsibility.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Im arguing for women and girls to have their spaces, langauge and rights not disrupted by people who are not women and girls. You don’t even come into my argument lmao

The consequences for you from women having the spaces and rights you stole from them given back to them would absolutely be your responsibility. You invaded spaces and forced yourself where you were meant not to be. That’s on you, not us.

[–]BiologyIsReal 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (12 children)

I literally told you I'm not against third spaces, but whatever.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (11 children)

But you also are actively against doing anything in furtherance of them while trying to push us out of women’s spaces. Realistically there’s no functional distance.

[–]BiologyIsReal 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (10 children)

I'm not against anyone advocating for third spaces...

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

But also aren’t going to do anything in furtherance of them.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

Did you make sure women and girls had alternative safe spaces when you nullified their safe spaces?

[–]BiologyIsReal 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Why should I do so?

[–]MarkTwainiac 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

And most trans women are attracted to men.

That's just a bald-faced lie, which is low even for no-evidence ever you. At least 75% of "trans women" are heterosexual males. This has always been the case and is even more so nowadays compared to the 60s, 70s and 80s because of the successes of the gay rights movement.

Prominent "trans women" who are heterosexual males, all of them previously married to women and fathers, include Jan Morris, Renee Richards, Caitlyn Jenner, Martine Rothblatt, Jennifer Finney Boylan, Jennifer Pritzker, Rachel Levine, Marci Bowers, Zoe Tur, and Dana Rivers, the one who killed two lesbians and their son in Berkeley CA a few years back. Leading lights of Genderland today include such heterosexual males as literary bigwigs Grace Lavery and Andrea Long Chu.

Being gay doesn’t predispose you to violence.

No, of course it doesn't. I never said it did. But at the same time, being gay doesn't remove males from the male sex class which has male patterns of violence, criminality and sex offending. Just as claiming a trans identity doesn't make males any less prone to violence and criminality either.

Leaving aside the utter lack of proof of violent crime rates among trans women that’s a wild swing.

I provided you with evidence from the UK Ministry of Justice that shows 58% of the "trans women" in prison in England and Wales in 2019 had at least one conviction for a criminal sex offense. How is that "utter lack of proof of violent crime rates" amongst this group?

In the US, for example, TW have much higher rates of incarceration compared to other males of their same race, age, place of origin and residence, level of education, employment history, etc. For example, depending on which source you go by, the proportion of black TW in the US who already have served a sentenc in jail or prison due to ranges from a low of 49% to nearly 65%. Those are much higher rates of being sentenced to incarceration than black males across the board. At the time when black males' incarceration rates were the highest in the US (at the turn of the 21st century), 33% of them could expect to be sentenced to time in jail or prison in the course of their lives. Now the lifetime incarceration rate for black males has dropped considerably, to under 20%.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

The only large scale survey I ever saw had trans women as approximately 33 percent straight, 33 percent bi, and 33 percent gay. That means the majority are attracted to men.

[–]BiologyIsReal 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

Is sexual orientation defined by the authors as based on sex or "gender identity"? Because if it is the latter, as it's likely, then that survey is saying most are sexually attracted to women...

Edit: also are the three numbers exactly 33%, really...?

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

And also that most are attracted to men. As I said.

[–]BiologyIsReal 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

It would be 50:50 supposing you're not making those numbers up, which I'm sceptical...

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

No it wouldn’t. It would be 66 percent attracted to men and 66 percent attracted to women. Bi people would apply to both.

[–]MarkTwainiac 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Right, so even going by your dodgy numbers, the majority of TW are sexually attracted to women. Which means they pose a sexual risk to women, whom they can still easily overpower due to their relatively greater strength, speed and size.

BTW, where are your figures from? And where do they apply? To which countries, I mean.

I trust the stats that US and Canadian sexologists like J Michael Bailey and Ray Blanchard have provided, which are that in countries like the US, UK and Canada, 75% of TW are heterosexual males, and 25% are gay males. Those figures are from the 1990s, though, so more nowadays might be bi.

Until the trans movement revived homophobia in a big way in the last few years, the percentage of gay males adopting a trans identity, particularly in adolescence or adulthood, was on the decline in countries like the US, UK and Canada because life had gotten much easier for out gay males in those places - and because same-sex marriage and adoption are now legal, and increasing numbers of same-sex male couples feel they have the option to become fathers and raise children.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

It’s been a few years but it was a us centric interest survey.

I wouldn’t trust anything from Blanchard. His most famous research is so wildly specious and ignorant it’s impossible to even address. He doesn’t believe bisexual trans people can exist. He just says we are heterosexual and confused. “Pseudo bisexual”

[–]MarkTwainiac 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

It’s been a few years but it was a us centric interest survey.

Oh one of those infamous "surveys" filled out anonymously online with no verification of who the respondents really are and no way to tell how many, if any, are being truthful. Gotcha.

He doesn’t believe bisexual trans people can exist. He just says we are heterosexual and confused. “Pseudo bisexual”

I don't think that Blanchard says that bisexual trans people can't exist. He said that the male patients who presented at the clinic he worked at for help with "gender identity" issues and transition tended to fit two distinct patterns: HSTS or het AGP. That's very different to saying "bi trans people can not exist." Also, why would a sexologist say bi people of any kind don't exist? Sexologists twigged to bisexuality a long time ago. Plus, sexologists have devised all sorts of nifty phyisical tests to ascertain and measure sexual arousal, so to them determining whether a person is gay, het or bi - and if bi, just how bi - is not a big deal.

Also, my understanding is that the label "pseudo bisexual" applies only to persons, mostly males, who were monosexual all their lives but claim to have switched sexual orientation after they had "transition" related treatment, usually just hormones but sometimes genital surgeries too.

Moreover, I don't think the "pseudo bisexual" label is one that Blanchard coined, nor am I aware of it through any of his work. I've learned about it from other people's research in the field.

I'm not clear on what your sexual orientation is, nor is it any of my business, nor do I know where you live, but I think that as a mostly heterosexual woman who's lived most of my life in NYC and artsy environs, I might have a better sense of how prevalent heterosexuality is amongst males who ID as TW. I'm a member of their target sex, after all, and you're not. I also know a number of women who've been married to or involved with guys who now say they are TW, and I know a lot of lesbians whose lives and social circles have been invaded by TW claiming to be lesbians going back to the 1970s.

Plus, several het guys in my own social circle now claim to be TW. The first one was the dad of a schoolmate of mine who "became a woman" in 1974. But several straight males in my own peer group I've known over the decades now say they are TW too. One is a guy I went to college with who viciously attacked and attempted to rape me my "freshman" year. He sent me a letter circa 2010 telling me that he'd finally "come out as a woman," and in so doing had realized that the reason he beat me up and tried to rape me was his "dysphoria" that caused him to be consumed by jealous rage towards me because I got to "experience and enjoy the girlhood" that he never had and I benefitted from "cis girl privilege and pretty girl privilege" whereas he was "forced to live in the body of a boy." Previously, he'd blamed his behavior on the fact that he'd gone to an all-boys prep school... Whatever... it's all a bunch of hooey. Self-justifying malarkey. But the point is: there are tons of heterosexual guys out there who are TW nowadays.

[–]nausicaa 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

This study came out in 2021 and looks at the sexuality of trans people in several countries in Europe.

For trans women:

-21% were attracted to men only

-51% were attracted to both men and women

-20% were attracted to women only

-0.6% were attracted to trans people only

-5% responded "not applicable"

For trans men:

-7% were attracted to men only

-29% were attracted to both men and women

-55% were attracted to women only

-0.9% were attracted to trans people only

-4% responded "not applicable"

[–]MarkTwainiac 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

And castration to distance yourself from being seen as a man has existed for thousands of years and was the best available option for dysphoria then. I’m glad you can acknowledge that.

You really don't know much or anything about history beyond the narrow slice that supports trans ideology.

Most males who were castrated historically were not castrated because it "was the best available option for dysphoria then." It was coz eunuchs and castrati has special roles in places like China and Italy. And because Arab slavers castrated the millions of black African boys and men they took into captivity.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I didn’t say that they were. Political eunuchs and such existed, but so did those who didn’t want to be seen as men.