Let’s discuss this casual throwing around of terms like ‘nazi’

submitted by HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex from self.GCdebatesQT

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[–]Greensquidsphone 1 insightful - 4 fun1 insightful - 3 fun2 insightful - 4 fun -  (10 children)

https://econtent.hogrefe.com/doi/abs/10.1027/0227-5910/a000264?journalCode=cri#/doi/abs/10.1027/0227-5910/a000264?journalCode=cri

Your anecdotal experience is not evidence, please do not conflate it as such.

[–]MarkTwainiac 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

Suicide is a major cause of death in the country I live in, the USA. I have kept track of the trends in this area since the 1980s. In the 1990s, I was active in the campaign to get the US government's health body the CDC to collect stats on suicide & other forms of violent death nationally in a database available to the public that was separate to the stats & database of the FBI/US Department of Justice.

https://www.cdc.gov/violenceprevention/datasources/nvdrs/index.html

Moreover, because of my work history, I personally know Jews who grew up & managed to survive Naziism and the Holocaust, Native Americans of various tribes/nations who've gone through horrors, Cambodians who experienced the killing fields of the Khmer Rouge, persons who endured the Soviet gulags, survivors of the genocidal war that occurred in the wake of the break up of the former Yugoslavia, Cubans who were imprisoned by Castro, Persians who were jailed & exiled due to the 1979 revolution, Afghans forced to flee their country due to the Russian invasion and the takeover by the Taliban... and other people who've experienced some of the horrific events of recent human history. And one of the topics I've discussed with the people I know who endured such suffering is, why weren't there mass suicides amongst the groups being persecuted? This has long been a topic of intellectual inquiry.

Yes, my knowledge of suicide ideation, urges and attempts is informed by my own personal experience. But it's certainly not based solely on my experience or on anecdotes. Whereas yours seems to be based on spurious claims, dodgy sources and the manipulative tactics of emotional abusers.

Moreover, it's very clear from your posts that whenever you are challenged, you can't articulate any arguments defending and advancing your position. Instead, you just resort to ad hominem attacks.

Speaking of which, as a person of Irish heritage whose grandparents and parents were castigated and discriminated against for being dumb, dirty Paddys, I take umbrage at you calling Sloane "an unwashed sack of potatoes." IMO, this diss that you've chosen to use reflects racist prejudice against a certain ethnicity, and a condescending yet also exploitative attitude towards the main food of an indigenous population that was intentionally given a blight by colonizers trying to create a famine that would wipe said indigenous population off the face of the earth.

See, us unwashed sacks of taters can play this game too.

But back to the issue of suicide, who it affects and why: please start a thread about this. In a debate on the topic I think I'd wipe the floor with you.

[–]VioletRemihomosexual female (aka - lesbian) 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

In my short work in suicide prevention hotline, what I've learned is that if a group is susseptible to suicide - then you should never even mention to them possibility of such and should move discussion to something far away from it. Introducing suicide as an option will give them idea that it is one of courses of actions in the first place, which they may not even considered before at all, and such introducing of suicide was increasing risks of suicide for that groups significantly - by 3-5 times.

So if transgender people are "at risk of suicide" - then trans activist's fearmongering of them and their parents by saying "you will end up in suicide if not transitioned" should be even worse and such trans activist's rhethorics should be increasing amount of suicide attempts by transgender people by at least 5 times. So does not look like they care about transgender people at all and this tactics is basically just terrorism or coercive control with "Do X or Y will die".

[–]ColoredTwiceIntersex female, medical malpractice victim, lesbian 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

It is common propagandistic tactics - was always used in dictatorships and cults.

When USSR was "curing" me from my lesbianism, they were saying to parents that I will end up suiciding like many other lesbians (who mostly suicided BECAUSE of treatment or corrective rapes) if I receive no treatment. They were fearmongering them and saying same to me. I wss just naive teen who just wanted to be normal, so they did different therapies and in the end decided that I am acting too masculine, so must be a man - and put me on testosterone.

So it is very common way to control parents - scare them with suicide and remove kids from parents to propagandists (like we had pioneer camps, where were only few adult propagandists and we were not allowed to connect with parents for months).

And it all happened to me more than 30 years ago. Methods are never changing.

[–]Greensquidsphone 1 insightful - 5 fun1 insightful - 4 fun2 insightful - 5 fun -  (5 children)

These are the hot takes I live for. "Don't talk us about how our making it harder/impossible to access medical care will increase suicide rates because talking about it will increase the suicide rate"

[–]VioletRemihomosexual female (aka - lesbian) 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Fearmongering kids that they will end up suiciding will increase suicide rates, yes. Especially if done on mass media. That's why there is safeguarding on mass media towards other groups who are susceptible to suicide. It is taking care of those people.

Discussing in person or on political level and researching it - should not increase rates, but it is not what happening. What we see is "suicide epidemic" and "kids, you would end up suiciding, so demand parents to transition you!" - which is very-very harmful. I don't understand why you are so unempathetic towards transgender kids.

[–]Greensquidsphone 1 insightful - 5 fun1 insightful - 4 fun2 insightful - 5 fun -  (3 children)

I don't understand why you are so unempathetic towards transgender kids

I'm not, which is why I advocate for proven medical treatment and against legislation which prevents access to said treatment. You sure seem to be though.

[–]VioletRemihomosexual female (aka - lesbian) 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

You are ignoring that it is wrong treatment for transmen, and you are only focusing on transwomen but saying it is for everyone.

Plus you are fine with promoting suicide ideas among them and raising suicide figures, most likely due to the lack of knowledge of how it works and what help and support people with such tendencies need.

[–]Greensquidsphone 1 insightful - 4 fun1 insightful - 3 fun2 insightful - 4 fun -  (1 child)

You are ignoring that it is wrong treatment for transmen, and you are only focusing on transwomen but saying it is for everyone

Literally not doing that, literature shows transition is just as effective for transmen as it is for TW, but sure

Plus you are fine with promoting suicide ideas among them and raising suicide figures

And again, literally no. Stop making shit up about a fake monster you've made up inside your head, I'm right fucking here. The only people I talk about suicide with are the people actively trying to raise the rates (that's you guys, objectively, SINCE AGAIN LITERALLY NO ONE CAN PROVE THE CURRENT TREATMENT FOR GD IS INNEFECTIVE)

[–]reluctant_commenter 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Hey! Just wanted to add, this report completed under the Obama Administration in 2016 found that there was insufficient clinical evidence to back up transitioning medical services: https://www.cms.gov/medicare-coverage-database/details/nca-proposed-decision-memo.aspx?NCAId=282

[–]a_green_squidtransmed i guess? 3 insightful - 3 fun3 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

Yes, yes, you are very smart.

why weren't there mass suicides amongst the groups being persecuted

But there were. We know there were. Survivorship bias and the fact that data current to those events was tampered with heavily by the perpetrators of said events both make it hard to get an accurate read on suicide data during, for example, the holocaust, but even still:

Some estimates are as high as 1 in 4 committing suicide inside of concentration camps (https://www.researchgate.net/publication/7738915_The_Suicide_Rate_in_the_Concentration_Camps_Was_Extraordinarily_High_A_Comment_on_Bronisch_and_Lester). We also know that pre-war, Jewish peoples in Germany/Austria had a higher suicide rate (https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0165178117311290?via%3Dihub). And even DESPITE survivorship bias, the rate of suicide still seems to be higher in aging holocaust survivors (https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/16085786/ , https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/17402339/) when compared to the general population by a significant margin.

Moreover, it's very clear from your posts that whenever you are challenged, you can't articulate any arguments defending and advancing your position.

Right, was it you who linked me a study you didn't even read earlier? I'm not sure I trust what's 'clear' to you.

Instead, you just resort to ad hominem attacks.

No, I just include them. If I can't beat em, join em, right?

See, us unwashed sacks of taters can play this game too.

Sure. You sure showed me. I'm glad we've already hit the slur-reclaimation stage.

But back to the issue of suicide, who it affects and why: please start a thread about this.

Start a thread about WHAT. There's nothing to debate. Suicide affects people. There are a large number of determining factors behind it. Sometimes a subset of those factors is an entity we can point to and blame.

In a debate on the topic I think I'd wipe the floor with you.

I kind of want to let this stand on its own. Being here has been this surreal experience where I can't tell if I'm interacting with boomers who think having lived longer means they're smarter or 14 year old kids who just found the skeptic community on Youtube and want to prove their worth in the comments of some random feminism video.