QT: Doesn't gender-identity only make sense for trans people? Why use it for non-trans people?

submitted by FlanJam from self.GCdebatesQT

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[–][deleted] 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (27 children)

Compare it to physical pain. You don’t notice your shoulder until it hurts. If you don’t have any particular feelings on your gender identity, it’s because you are in a body that isn’t incompatible with it.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

But don’t men like Jeffrey Star, James Charles, The Rock, Eminem, Brad Pitt, Sean Hayes, and Richard Simmons all identify as men? Didn’t even Marsha P say that he was not a woman?

Don’t women like Scarlett Johansson, Pink, Beyoncé, Mary Louise Parker, Lea DeLaria, KD Lang, Ellen Dégeneres, Portia DeRossi, and Missy Elliot all identify as women?

So what traits do people whose “particular feelings” make them have a sense of identity incompatible with their bodies have in common? What are they identifying with?

if there’s no right or wrong or specific way to be a man or a woman, if not all women or men behave a specific way, and more men and women who don’t fit into the stereotypes or guidelines of their gender but are comfortable in their bodies as they formed naturally, how does that not call into question the validity of the concept of gender identity?

If males ranging in all sexualities, occupations, presentations etc can all be themselves ans be comfortable as men even if they don’t fit any stereotypes (same with women), what is there left to identify with?

[–]MarkTwainiac 4 insightful - 3 fun4 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

loveSloane, when Brad Pitt was in the 1992 movie Legends of The Fall he was clearly a woman - this should be clear from his long hair in that flick. When he was in Johnny Suede in 1991 he was "gender questioning" and probably non-binary - coz of the bouffant quiff. When he was in Troy in 1994, Brad again was clearly a woman - coz not only had he reverted to wearing his hair shoulder-length again like in Legends, but in that film he wore mini-skirts! Though perhaps not the kind that "go spinny." LOL

Brad's hair - and presumably his "gender identities" - have changed so often and so dramatically over the years that it's hard to keep track. https://www.esquire.com/style/grooming/g32827973/brad-pitt-haircut-hairstyles/

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

We’ve been round about this. It’s about the body dysphoria. You know that I wholly support the removal of gendered behavioral expectations.

No matter how effeminate a man is or masculine a woman is, unless they have substantial body dysphoria they aren’t trans.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

So there’s no such thing as gender identity? Because we aren’t talking about dysphoria and that’s not what I was asking about.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

It’s not some phantom ideal of what clothes suit, it’s just whether you match up with your body or not. If there’s a mismatch - disphoria - trans. If not - no dysphoria- not trans

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

There are dysphoric people, even on this very sub, who aren’t trans. So dysphoria doesn’t always equal trans. But my point is the body discomfort a dysphoric person experiences is not any type of identity, so to claim a gender identity because of having dysphoria is a huge leap that has never been proven or explained well. I get that people have dysphoria, I’m saying it doesn’t make sense to claim to have a gender identity because of it. As Houseplant asked, what makes discomfort in a male body translate into a female identity? Feeling out of place in your body doesn’t mean you somehow magically understand what it is to be the opposite sex/gender, wouldn’t it mean, and only mean, that you feel discomfort in your body? Even if it means you wish you were the opposite sex and intend to hormonally and surgically alter your body to appear as the opposite sex, there’s nothing that validates the idea that you can know what it is to be that sex/gender and identify with it. At best, trans people can only provably claim that transition helps alleviate dysphoria, nothing backs up the idea that a trans person can identify as something they just aren’t and (at least pre transition, assuming they pass after) haven’t been socialized or seen as.

[–]yousaythosethings 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (12 children)

Compare it to schizophrenia. You don't notice the lack of voices in your head when you're not schizophrenic. Should we also come up with a word for people who are not schizophrenic and have this be asked of us on intake forms?

What about age? What if a man who has been on this planet for 480 months does not feel like he's 40 and feels more internally like he's 12. Should we be asking everyone about their age identity to determine whether they should be eligible for capital punishment or placement in an adult prison or juvenile detention center? Should this guy be able to enroll in middle school, get child discounts on tickets for things, go to a pediatrician, and be in a relationship with a cis-12-year-old?

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 3 fun2 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 3 fun -  (11 children)

Neither of those things are comparable to gender Identity as you are well aware. I won’t be engaging with you further because you are obviously acting in bad faith.

[–]yousaythosethings 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (10 children)

This is a debate sub. How about you explain how gender dysphoria/schizophrenia and gender identity/age identity are not comparable.

I don’t think you realize how much you specifically influenced me in the GC direction when I was on Reddit and just a gay person trying to hear directly from both sides about their positions after initially trying to learn more about trans issues for the purpose of being a better ally and then seeing a bunch of red flags. It’s your fundamental inability to recognize any interest other than your own as legitimate and to conveniently jump to accusing everyone else of bad faith.

[–]Porcelain_QuetzalTabby without Ears 2 insightful - 4 fun2 insightful - 3 fun3 insightful - 4 fun -  (0 children)

You're right this is a debate sub. But most trans people don't take kindly to the comparisons you use, because they're often used to label trans people as mentally ill and in need of treatment, not rights. In addition of that they take a lot of effort to debunk, since they are so similar on a surface level. For schizophrenia you can look at the fact that there is a single case study of antpsychotics beeing used to "cure" a paitent of GID [Poland 1996] while there are multiple cases of schizophrenic trans people. interestingly these are mostly trans men, which is surprising given the spread of it in cis people.

The second is a pretty blatant false analogy. It ignores that trans age or whatever you want to call it is a new development without any precedent, I could find, before the 2010s. It's also not in any way medically documented in the same way gender dysphoria is.

Giving the benefit of the doubt I don't think you're arguing in bad faith, but you're using arguments that are often used to do so. Also the burden of proof is usually on the person claiming that something is. If you you say that these are comparable and are asked why you think so or are asked to proof it then you have to provide proof or, at the very least, your reasoning.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (8 children)

I still absolutely think you are acting in bad faith, but for the reader:

Gender is a social construct age isn't. Also age changes over time and is specifically measurable. Sex and gender identity are both fixed. Also “age identity” isn’t accepted by the medical community, unlike gender dysphoria.

Schizophrenia is entirely unrelated. It’s a different condition than gender dysphoria, and treated separately. In addition to the genetic component observed in schizophrenia and the fact that it operates entirely differently, it represents actually false perception as opposed to simple subjective feelings since I believe delusion is the idea that you are pushing. We accurately perceive our bodies, just found them patently disgusting and uncomfortable. That’s not delusion.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

I have two questions that I’m asking genuinely, not to debate:

  1. Can you claim that something that can’t be clearly defined (gender identity) is fixed? Like can you prove this or explain how it’s certain that it’s as fixed as sex is?

I just mean I don’t think you can make that statement “for the reader” as if it’s fact that’s been accepted and proven when it’s unproven nature is a large part of this very post.

  1. How is seeing a healthy, typically functioning body as wrong or as something that causes distress, or the internal sense that you were born the wrong sex and have a gender identity of the opposite sex not comparable to a false perception to some extent? There’s nothing wrong with a dysphoric person's body, they just don’t feel comfortable in it.

I’m not saying that I think dysphoria and schizophrenia are the same, but to me, the original comment was comparing mental illnesses and how they are addressed and acknowledged by people who don’t have them, not specifically comparing dysphoria and schizophrenia.

Like- you can say finding your body disgusting and uncomfortable is not a delusion, but as I said, we aren’t discussing dysphoria on the post, we’re discussing gender identity. Which seems to be explained as the internal sense that you are the opposite gender as your sex (or the same gender is you’re not trans). How is the idea of gender identity not delusional?

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

If you could change gender identity, there’d be no trans people. They’ve tried to change is. The whole conversion therapy thing.

As you said, it’s not false perception but discomfort. Therefore not delusional. We perceive reality accurately, that’s why we are uncomfortable. If we saw our bodies as we would prefer them we wouldn’t have dysphoria.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

I’m asking about gender identity, someone born in a female body who thinks they are mentally a male- that sounds delusional to me. I’m not saying dysphoria delusional, I’m saying I don’t get how the idea that you’re mentally the opposite sex/gender of your body isn’t delusional.

Basically I’m saying I don’t think dysphoria is delusional, but I do think that gender identity is.

Also- “gender identity” can’t be fixed if it’s different for everyone and open to interpretation. The sense of feeling discomfort in your body can be considered fixed, but if one person says “I identify as a woman because of dysphoria” and another says “I identify as a woman because pink, barbies, and skirt go twirl” and they both call it “gender identity”, they mean two different things. Even when we’ve asked in the past for qt to explain their gender identity, we always got varied answers, some of which contradicted each other. So is it “gender identity”, or is it individual personality and interests etc of people who happen to be trans?

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

You are conflating indentifying with believing you are physically identical to. There’s nothing inaccurate about our perceptions.

You are also conflating interests with identity and, as I just said, I don’t think behavioral expectations should be gendered. It’s about the body. The rest is set dressing.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

I can’t tell if you don’t get what I’m saying or you’re just pretending not to.

What does it mean to identify as a woman/man? What is the answer to that question? How can someone in a female body know for sure, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that they identify as a man (or a male as a woman)?

that is what I’m saying seems like a delusion or at least extremely close to one. The idea that you can identify into something you literally just are not and are not seen as (pre transition, and post for many), that you can identify as something you lack any experience with, seems delusional.

If it’s about body, there’s no room for identity. It would be all physical. I’m not asking you what you think about behavior, “set dressing”, or even the physical aspect, I’m asking how thinking you are something you aren’t is not a delusion.

[–]MarkTwainiac 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Compare it to physical pain. You don’t notice your shoulder until it hurts. If you don’t have any particular feelings on your gender identity, it’s because you are in a body that isn’t incompatible with it.

But most physical pain has biological causes that can be objectively determined and diagnosed. Moreover, there are lots of observable, measurable markers for physical pain, so even when the exact source of a person's physical pain cannot be ascertained, the fact that pain is occurring as a biological phenomenon often can be.

The larger point is, why cannot "gender identity" be explained on its own without those who believe in it constantly resorting to saying it's like this, that or the other completely unrelated things?

I'm not suggesting that those who have psychological distress over their sex and/or claim to have an opposite-sex "gender identity" - or one of the multitude of newer, cooler "gender identities" now in vogue - are not suffering very real emotional pain. I think they/you do suffer, and I am sorry for that. But I don't think anyone has adequately explained "gender identity" or made a convincing case that it's universal and has physical causes.

This is also not to say that a lot of people with very real physical pain haven't had their pain pooh-poohed. This has indeed happened to many people, particularly female ones. I'm just saying that what has been learnt about physical pain in recent decades shows or at least suggests that it usually does have a physical source that with enough looking for it can be found and identified. Whereas there's no evidence that people's claims of being something they are demonstrably, clearly not is caused by conditions rooted in physical, biological reality.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I disagree. At the minimum the brain studies have demonstrated a trend in brain development separating cis men from trans women. (Trans men/natal women go unstudied as far as I know, which would sadly be expected give medical sciences tendency to center the hite and the male).

That’s not to say that it is specifically the same as a natal women, but still distinct from a cis man. I think there is a structural root for dysphoria.

[–]FlanJam[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Aren't you just talking about dysphoria? I get there are people with dysphoria and people without dysphoria, that makes sense to me. Where I'm lost is when people add the extra level of gender-identity on top of that. I don't know why people have dysphoria, but claiming its due to incompatibility between one's body and gender-identity seems like conjecture to me.

From my perspective, people telling me they feel gender-identity sounds like christians telling me they feel the holy spirit inside of them. I understand that's how they feel, but I have no way of telling whether its real or not. Unless someone can show me its real, it just seems like a concept people invented to describe their experiences. And like, that concept can have value as a rough way to describe something, but I have a hard time accepting it as a reified thing.

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

To me dysphoria and being trans are the same. That’s the thing that makes someone trans.

[–]FlanJam[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Yeah ok, I agree with that much. Its only the extra bits about gender id I disagree with.

[–]worried19 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Some of us have strong feelings about the social stuff, but no physical distress.

I'm okay living as a gender nonconforming woman because society allows it. If society didn't allow it, I'd transition. If I couldn't do that, my distress would be severe enough that I would choose to end things.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I don’t consider the social element relevant generally. I think people ought to be free of gendered expectations but hen in talking about dysphoria, it’s purely the physical I am referring to. A trans woman is distinct from an effeminate man no matter how effeminate the man acts.

[–]worried19 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Makes sense. I agree that physical dysphoria is the only kind that should be relevant.

If you don’t have any particular feelings on your gender identity, it’s because you are in a body that isn’t incompatible with it.

Maybe "sex identity" would be a better phrase. Gender identity makes it seem like the social stuff is being talked about.