QT: Doesn't gender-identity only make sense for trans people? Why use it for non-trans people?

submitted by FlanJam from self.GCdebatesQT

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[–]loveSloaneDebate King 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

But don’t men like Jeffrey Star, James Charles, The Rock, Eminem, Brad Pitt, Sean Hayes, and Richard Simmons all identify as men? Didn’t even Marsha P say that he was not a woman?

Don’t women like Scarlett Johansson, Pink, Beyoncé, Mary Louise Parker, Lea DeLaria, KD Lang, Ellen Dégeneres, Portia DeRossi, and Missy Elliot all identify as women?

So what traits do people whose “particular feelings” make them have a sense of identity incompatible with their bodies have in common? What are they identifying with?

if there’s no right or wrong or specific way to be a man or a woman, if not all women or men behave a specific way, and more men and women who don’t fit into the stereotypes or guidelines of their gender but are comfortable in their bodies as they formed naturally, how does that not call into question the validity of the concept of gender identity?

If males ranging in all sexualities, occupations, presentations etc can all be themselves ans be comfortable as men even if they don’t fit any stereotypes (same with women), what is there left to identify with?

[–]MarkTwainiac 4 insightful - 3 fun4 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

loveSloane, when Brad Pitt was in the 1992 movie Legends of The Fall he was clearly a woman - this should be clear from his long hair in that flick. When he was in Johnny Suede in 1991 he was "gender questioning" and probably non-binary - coz of the bouffant quiff. When he was in Troy in 1994, Brad again was clearly a woman - coz not only had he reverted to wearing his hair shoulder-length again like in Legends, but in that film he wore mini-skirts! Though perhaps not the kind that "go spinny." LOL

Brad's hair - and presumably his "gender identities" - have changed so often and so dramatically over the years that it's hard to keep track. https://www.esquire.com/style/grooming/g32827973/brad-pitt-haircut-hairstyles/

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

We’ve been round about this. It’s about the body dysphoria. You know that I wholly support the removal of gendered behavioral expectations.

No matter how effeminate a man is or masculine a woman is, unless they have substantial body dysphoria they aren’t trans.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

So there’s no such thing as gender identity? Because we aren’t talking about dysphoria and that’s not what I was asking about.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

It’s not some phantom ideal of what clothes suit, it’s just whether you match up with your body or not. If there’s a mismatch - disphoria - trans. If not - no dysphoria- not trans

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

There are dysphoric people, even on this very sub, who aren’t trans. So dysphoria doesn’t always equal trans. But my point is the body discomfort a dysphoric person experiences is not any type of identity, so to claim a gender identity because of having dysphoria is a huge leap that has never been proven or explained well. I get that people have dysphoria, I’m saying it doesn’t make sense to claim to have a gender identity because of it. As Houseplant asked, what makes discomfort in a male body translate into a female identity? Feeling out of place in your body doesn’t mean you somehow magically understand what it is to be the opposite sex/gender, wouldn’t it mean, and only mean, that you feel discomfort in your body? Even if it means you wish you were the opposite sex and intend to hormonally and surgically alter your body to appear as the opposite sex, there’s nothing that validates the idea that you can know what it is to be that sex/gender and identify with it. At best, trans people can only provably claim that transition helps alleviate dysphoria, nothing backs up the idea that a trans person can identify as something they just aren’t and (at least pre transition, assuming they pass after) haven’t been socialized or seen as.