QT: Doesn't gender-identity only make sense for trans people? Why use it for non-trans people?

submitted by FlanJam from self.GCdebatesQT

(Question for QT but anyone can reply)

To preface, I agree with GC that I don't believe in gender-identity in the sense of this internal gender feeling. I have never felt my gender, I don't feel affirmed by doing "womanly" things. As far as I can tell, gender is a social construct.

However, I understand that the concept of gender-identity can be useful for trans people to explain how they feel. Its like saying "born in the wrong body", it gets the general idea across but its not quite right when you really read into it.

The issue I have is, people (modern lgbt especially) have taken this concept and pushed it too far. They believe EVERYONE has a gender identity built into them and this does not make sense to me. Like I said, I don't feel gender, and most people I know would say the same. So what about us? Are we all agender? Should I stop calling myself a woman?

So I guess my question is, why push this concept of gender identity on everyone, when it clearly doesn't work for everyone? If trans people feel its useful for verbalizing their experiences then that's fine, I have no issue with that. Its when you take it a step further and apply it to me is when I start taking issue with it.

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[–]loveSloaneDebate King 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Not qt- if they didn’t have the term “gender identity”, people would have to call it what it really is. Calling it what it really is delegitimizes the whole ideology.

In other words, people who can’t handle the truth coined a phrase that obscures the truth, imo.

All you have to do is look at the fact that all women and all men don’t share the same personality, tastes, and interests etc, to see the holes in the concept of gender identity. To be frank, for me, giving it even 5 minutes of critical thinking exposes how flawed and nonsensical the whole concept is.

[–]FlanJam[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Yeah, I guess the more extreme QT need gender-identity to legitimize their ideology. But I think the more moderate, reasonable trans community don't really need it to justify themselves. I mean, trans people can still exist even if gender-identity doesn't (and as far as i can tell, it doesn't).

And yeah, honestly I don't get it. The concept makes no sense to me, which is why it bothers me when people state it as fact.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I agree trans people still exist even without gender identity. I think the trans people who use the term use it to try to legitimize themselves- not as trans, which they just are by virtue of transitioning, but as actually being the sex (though they say gender, men and women are not gendered terms) they wish to transition to, if that makes sense.

Eta- it also allows the people who call themselves trans but take no steps to transition to call themselves the opposite sex/gender.

I also think they think it destigmatizes them. Like, instead of carrying the stigma of mental illness, they can claim it’s not mental illness, it’s a sense of identity that we just don’t understand because we aren’t trans. It’s why they push “cis” on people who aren’t trans. It’s all to further the narrative that transwomen are women and transmen are men and the only difference (which we should see as insignificant) is “birth sex” or “assigned gender at birth”. Gender identity and murky arguments about phenotypes and secondary sex characteristics are all, imo, desperate attempts to convince themselves and us that they are the sex they wish they were born.

The concept of gender identity only works if 1) you’re not paying attention and just accept what tras tell you for the sake of being able to call yourself woke or 2) the people they call “cis” all more or less behave, think, and feel the same way, according to their sex. But if women and men as varied as the ones I listed in my question to masks can all exist and understand themselves to be the sex/gender they were born, it makes the idea of gender identity a bit ridiculous to me.

[–]FlanJam[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Yeah that makes sense. I'm pretty much in agreement with GC when it comes to sex. I don't think trans people are LITERALLY the sex they are trying to transition to. And like, they can still live their lives how they want, I have no issue using their preferred pronouns or whatever.

1) you’re not paying attention and just accept what tras tell you for the sake of being able to call yourself woke

This used to be me a few years ago lol. But QT kept pushing weirder and weirder ideas until I just couldn't accept it anymore. And its not just QT or trans people tbh, woke lgbt people in general push weirdo nonsense ideas. They should learn the phrase "don't be so open minded that your brain falls out"

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I’d like to add a question to the op. What makes a discomfort/distress/hatred of male physical features the identity of a woman?

What does woman have to do with not wanting a penis or beard or to play on the football team?
What makes distress about male bodies a female identity instead of a distressed male one?

[–]SnowAssMan 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (20 children)

Gender identity is determined by socialisation. People's gender identity matches their sex, unless their parents go out of their way to socialise their baby as the opposite sex.

Trans people have a cross-gender identification, or a self-identification. They never use these terms, instead opting for the misnomers: gender, gender identity, woman/man.

[–]MarkTwainiac 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

But we're all socialized in various ways that are heavily influenced by our sex. Yet most people now and through the whole course of human history have not had a "gender identity." In historical terms, the phrase "gender identity" and the concept(s) behind it arrived like five minutes ago.

In the 1970s, 80s and early 90s, I researched and wrote extensively on how humans develop as sense of self, or self-concept, and self-esteem, with a particular emphasis on how girls/women do this, especially but not exclusively in Western countries. The term "gender identity" was not a factor in the professional literature on the construction of the human sense of self, and no girls and women interviewed at the time used this term either. "Gender identity" was a niche term that only appeared in the work of a few sexologists who were describing small number of people, mostly male.

[–]SnowAssMan 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Even if the term wasn't being used, the concept was known, even in the 70s, but most probably earlier, otherwise Simone de Beauvoir couldn't refer to it. That's what her famous quote is alluding to.

[–]worried19 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (14 children)

But some of us have a cross-gender identification and don't call ourselves trans. Really, without physical dysphoria, what is the point of labeling yourself transgender? At that point, it's based solely on stereotypes.

I prefer a male social role and masculine presentation. That doesn't make me male. It just means I reject female stereotypes.

[–]SnowAssMan 7 insightful - 2 fun7 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

A cross-gender identification is not the same as a masculine gender role preference, which is also not necessarily the same as simply rejecting a feminine gender role.

If you had a cross-gender identification you'd dislike the sex you are, &/or desire to be the opposite sex, be same-sex attracted & then end up desisting. I could be mistaken, but GNC is what I'm getting from your replies.

[–]worried19 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

I guess I mean "cross-gender identification" in the sense that I would prefer to be male.

I do dislike being female, but not because I think my body is wrong or inferior. It's because of society.

[–]MarkTwainiac 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

To add to your perspective, many women over the course of many generations have rejected what you call "female stereotypes."

I suspect what you characterize as

a male social role and masculine presentation

That you prefer for yourself and you seem to think sets you apart from the bulk of female humanity across cultures and millennia is what a lot of women of older (than your) generations have considered pretty "normal" or no big deal.

Rejecting female stereotypes does not necessarily mean adopting

a male social role and masculine presentation

More often, it means not giving a shit at all about "masculine presentation" or "feminine" presentation. It also means not living one's life in accordance with either the undefined "male social role" that you say you prefer or the equally undefined "female social role" you intimate you have rejected.

The looks, costumes and "presentation" of many or most people vary greatly over the course of our lives. I am all for you being you. But I will argue to the end that rejecting female stereotypes should and usually does NOT mean adopting male stereotypes in turn.

[–]worried19 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Not many people go whole-hog in the other direction, though.

I do not participate in any level of cultural femininity. But that doesn't mean I adopt everything associated with cultural masculinity. For example, I am not a violent or dominating type of person.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

Doesn’t defining your preferences as male or masculine just reify gender norms further though?

[–]MarkTwainiac 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Yes.

[–]worried19 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

I mean according to society's current norms. I think gender should be abolished, but as of right now there is still cultural masculinity associated with males and cultural femininity associated with females.

I want society to get to the point where there is no correlation between appearance and roles and biological sex.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

But still define yourself by them?

To each their own.

[–]worried19 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (5 children)

I try not to define myself by them. I acknowledge that I'm a female person who rejects female stereotypes. I'm not trying to disavow womanhood at all. I've been down that road of stress and confusion, and it's not worth it. I accept what I am, and what I am is female.

At the same time, I have to live in this society, and part of the way I handle living in this society is to adopt the presentation and behaviors more typical of the male sex. I could not tolerate the social role society wants to put me in as a woman.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Ok. So you don’t define yourself it but still call yourself a masculine woman and adopt a presentation considered by you to be male? Looks to me like Reinforcing gender but hoping it will go away. Imo it’s more productive to drop the masculine descriptors and the idea of a male social role but again, to each their own.

[–]worried19 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (3 children)

Only in terms of online discussion. But I am masculine relative to cultural norms. Are you suggesting I pretend that I'm not? GNC people have unique struggles in society.

adopt a presentation considered by you to be male

Not by me, by society. Surely you do agree there is one standard of presentation for males and another for females.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I’m suggesting everyone should reject society’s notions of gender.

I’m aware there are different standards and am very, very obviously not saying they don’t exist lol.

I’m just saying that I personally feel that using those terms or giving them any sort of credence enforces them. The ideas don’t go away if we keep using them.

You do you. It just seemed a bit odd to me.

[–]worried19 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I completely agree with the goals of gender abolition.

I just think terms like GNC may still be relevant in our current society because there are certain issues that affect us more than others. GNC women and girls are the ones being wiped out by skyrocketing transition rates, for example.

[–]FlanJam[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

If you just mean it as the gender roles you are socialized into, then sure. I don't disagree with that version of it.

[–]SnowAssMan 8 insightful - 2 fun8 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

Identity is more than a role. Socialisation shapes you into what you are. How you are treated & what you learn in your formative years will remain with you for a life time. Why do working-class people behave differently to the middle-classes? Socialisation. There is a culture that comes with gender, just like class. It's a conditioning process. It's the nurture half of the nature vs. nurture debate. Class is an identity, gender is an identity. Neither are something you can self-identify out of without reversing your original socialisation & replacing it somehow.

[–]FlanJam[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Maybe role wasn't the right word, but I got what you're saying. I agree its a socialized thing that comes about thru culture. I disagree with the people who say its some kind of innate nebulous thing built into your "soul", for lack of a better word.

[–]censorshipment 2 insightful - 7 fun2 insightful - 6 fun3 insightful - 7 fun -  (1 child)

They don't want feel "othered", so everyone has to have a prefix/adjective.

I understand this because I hate that the default race and sexuality are white and straight. Online, I see a lot of women this and women that but what's being said typically applies to white/straight women... not black/gay women... so I'd prefer if people used white/straight instead of just women.

Also, I'm sure non-American women feel similar... American-centric topics about women need to say "American women" not just women.

[–]FlanJam[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I can sympathize with that, I just wish they'd find a way to cope without imposing on others.

[–]a_green_squidtransmed i guess? 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

As a trans person, I don't think it makes sense for non-trans people. You may have a gender identity, but if you do, then you have it in the same way you have a human identity, as in it's a non-feeling, something you don't interact with, acknowledge, or even think about on a day-to-day basis. IF (big if) you do have it, it's completely irrelevant to you.

If I'm being generous, it's being pushed so that non-trans people can understand that the feeling of normality and 'non-feeling' isn't a normal experience for trans people and maybe feel some level of sympathy. If I'm being realistic? Yeah, probably what the other person said, it's being pushed because they don't want to feel othered, and applying the concept of gender identity to everyone might help with them with that.

[–]FlanJam[S] 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I guess it just feels awfully convenient that only trans people can feel gender-identity and no one else can. At that point wouldn't it be simpler to say trans people feel discomfort due to dysphoria? And people without dysphoria obviously don't feel that discomfort. Thinking about it in those terms seems more cogent to me.

It wouldn't bother me that much if they were just using gender-identity as an abstract concept to explain their experiences. But telling me I really do have this gender-identity thing deep inside of me is weird.

[–]a_green_squidtransmed i guess? 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

At that point wouldn't it be simpler to say trans people feel discomfort due to dysphoria?

For me at least, this is the case. Idk, I relate pretty heavily to not understanding gender identity as a concept, as most of my personal drive is alleviating BDD/dysphoria rather than chasing gender feelings. Mostly I was just trying to explain how I've been told gender identity feels might apply to someone who isn't trans.

[–]FlanJam[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Yeah I gotcha, I was just kinda airing out my thoughts lol.

[–]worried19 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Hey, welcome! We are definitely in need of more trans posters. Please stay and invite your friends.

I agree with your take on it. Although I would also say that there are many of us who have complicated feelings about gender, enough so that it does cause us distress, but we don't adopt the trans label as a result. I think it's common to not be able to rest easy with your sex, even if only a small percentage of people are so distressed by it that they feel the need to pursue medical transition.

[–]a_green_squidtransmed i guess? 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Thanks. I posted on the reddit a while back, but some of the posters there were a little too toxic and the rules seemed a little too unfollowed. This seems better from what I've seen, so round two I guess?

[–]worried19 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Things actually do seem a lot calmer here. We also lost a few of our more aggressive posters.

[–][deleted] 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (27 children)

Compare it to physical pain. You don’t notice your shoulder until it hurts. If you don’t have any particular feelings on your gender identity, it’s because you are in a body that isn’t incompatible with it.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

But don’t men like Jeffrey Star, James Charles, The Rock, Eminem, Brad Pitt, Sean Hayes, and Richard Simmons all identify as men? Didn’t even Marsha P say that he was not a woman?

Don’t women like Scarlett Johansson, Pink, Beyoncé, Mary Louise Parker, Lea DeLaria, KD Lang, Ellen Dégeneres, Portia DeRossi, and Missy Elliot all identify as women?

So what traits do people whose “particular feelings” make them have a sense of identity incompatible with their bodies have in common? What are they identifying with?

if there’s no right or wrong or specific way to be a man or a woman, if not all women or men behave a specific way, and more men and women who don’t fit into the stereotypes or guidelines of their gender but are comfortable in their bodies as they formed naturally, how does that not call into question the validity of the concept of gender identity?

If males ranging in all sexualities, occupations, presentations etc can all be themselves ans be comfortable as men even if they don’t fit any stereotypes (same with women), what is there left to identify with?

[–]MarkTwainiac 4 insightful - 3 fun4 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

loveSloane, when Brad Pitt was in the 1992 movie Legends of The Fall he was clearly a woman - this should be clear from his long hair in that flick. When he was in Johnny Suede in 1991 he was "gender questioning" and probably non-binary - coz of the bouffant quiff. When he was in Troy in 1994, Brad again was clearly a woman - coz not only had he reverted to wearing his hair shoulder-length again like in Legends, but in that film he wore mini-skirts! Though perhaps not the kind that "go spinny." LOL

Brad's hair - and presumably his "gender identities" - have changed so often and so dramatically over the years that it's hard to keep track. https://www.esquire.com/style/grooming/g32827973/brad-pitt-haircut-hairstyles/

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

We’ve been round about this. It’s about the body dysphoria. You know that I wholly support the removal of gendered behavioral expectations.

No matter how effeminate a man is or masculine a woman is, unless they have substantial body dysphoria they aren’t trans.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

So there’s no such thing as gender identity? Because we aren’t talking about dysphoria and that’s not what I was asking about.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

It’s not some phantom ideal of what clothes suit, it’s just whether you match up with your body or not. If there’s a mismatch - disphoria - trans. If not - no dysphoria- not trans

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

There are dysphoric people, even on this very sub, who aren’t trans. So dysphoria doesn’t always equal trans. But my point is the body discomfort a dysphoric person experiences is not any type of identity, so to claim a gender identity because of having dysphoria is a huge leap that has never been proven or explained well. I get that people have dysphoria, I’m saying it doesn’t make sense to claim to have a gender identity because of it. As Houseplant asked, what makes discomfort in a male body translate into a female identity? Feeling out of place in your body doesn’t mean you somehow magically understand what it is to be the opposite sex/gender, wouldn’t it mean, and only mean, that you feel discomfort in your body? Even if it means you wish you were the opposite sex and intend to hormonally and surgically alter your body to appear as the opposite sex, there’s nothing that validates the idea that you can know what it is to be that sex/gender and identify with it. At best, trans people can only provably claim that transition helps alleviate dysphoria, nothing backs up the idea that a trans person can identify as something they just aren’t and (at least pre transition, assuming they pass after) haven’t been socialized or seen as.

[–]yousaythosethings 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (12 children)

Compare it to schizophrenia. You don't notice the lack of voices in your head when you're not schizophrenic. Should we also come up with a word for people who are not schizophrenic and have this be asked of us on intake forms?

What about age? What if a man who has been on this planet for 480 months does not feel like he's 40 and feels more internally like he's 12. Should we be asking everyone about their age identity to determine whether they should be eligible for capital punishment or placement in an adult prison or juvenile detention center? Should this guy be able to enroll in middle school, get child discounts on tickets for things, go to a pediatrician, and be in a relationship with a cis-12-year-old?

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 3 fun2 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 3 fun -  (11 children)

Neither of those things are comparable to gender Identity as you are well aware. I won’t be engaging with you further because you are obviously acting in bad faith.

[–]yousaythosethings 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (10 children)

This is a debate sub. How about you explain how gender dysphoria/schizophrenia and gender identity/age identity are not comparable.

I don’t think you realize how much you specifically influenced me in the GC direction when I was on Reddit and just a gay person trying to hear directly from both sides about their positions after initially trying to learn more about trans issues for the purpose of being a better ally and then seeing a bunch of red flags. It’s your fundamental inability to recognize any interest other than your own as legitimate and to conveniently jump to accusing everyone else of bad faith.

[–]Porcelain_QuetzalTabby without Ears 2 insightful - 4 fun2 insightful - 3 fun3 insightful - 4 fun -  (0 children)

You're right this is a debate sub. But most trans people don't take kindly to the comparisons you use, because they're often used to label trans people as mentally ill and in need of treatment, not rights. In addition of that they take a lot of effort to debunk, since they are so similar on a surface level. For schizophrenia you can look at the fact that there is a single case study of antpsychotics beeing used to "cure" a paitent of GID [Poland 1996] while there are multiple cases of schizophrenic trans people. interestingly these are mostly trans men, which is surprising given the spread of it in cis people.

The second is a pretty blatant false analogy. It ignores that trans age or whatever you want to call it is a new development without any precedent, I could find, before the 2010s. It's also not in any way medically documented in the same way gender dysphoria is.

Giving the benefit of the doubt I don't think you're arguing in bad faith, but you're using arguments that are often used to do so. Also the burden of proof is usually on the person claiming that something is. If you you say that these are comparable and are asked why you think so or are asked to proof it then you have to provide proof or, at the very least, your reasoning.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (8 children)

I still absolutely think you are acting in bad faith, but for the reader:

Gender is a social construct age isn't. Also age changes over time and is specifically measurable. Sex and gender identity are both fixed. Also “age identity” isn’t accepted by the medical community, unlike gender dysphoria.

Schizophrenia is entirely unrelated. It’s a different condition than gender dysphoria, and treated separately. In addition to the genetic component observed in schizophrenia and the fact that it operates entirely differently, it represents actually false perception as opposed to simple subjective feelings since I believe delusion is the idea that you are pushing. We accurately perceive our bodies, just found them patently disgusting and uncomfortable. That’s not delusion.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

I have two questions that I’m asking genuinely, not to debate:

  1. Can you claim that something that can’t be clearly defined (gender identity) is fixed? Like can you prove this or explain how it’s certain that it’s as fixed as sex is?

I just mean I don’t think you can make that statement “for the reader” as if it’s fact that’s been accepted and proven when it’s unproven nature is a large part of this very post.

  1. How is seeing a healthy, typically functioning body as wrong or as something that causes distress, or the internal sense that you were born the wrong sex and have a gender identity of the opposite sex not comparable to a false perception to some extent? There’s nothing wrong with a dysphoric person's body, they just don’t feel comfortable in it.

I’m not saying that I think dysphoria and schizophrenia are the same, but to me, the original comment was comparing mental illnesses and how they are addressed and acknowledged by people who don’t have them, not specifically comparing dysphoria and schizophrenia.

Like- you can say finding your body disgusting and uncomfortable is not a delusion, but as I said, we aren’t discussing dysphoria on the post, we’re discussing gender identity. Which seems to be explained as the internal sense that you are the opposite gender as your sex (or the same gender is you’re not trans). How is the idea of gender identity not delusional?

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

If you could change gender identity, there’d be no trans people. They’ve tried to change is. The whole conversion therapy thing.

As you said, it’s not false perception but discomfort. Therefore not delusional. We perceive reality accurately, that’s why we are uncomfortable. If we saw our bodies as we would prefer them we wouldn’t have dysphoria.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

I’m asking about gender identity, someone born in a female body who thinks they are mentally a male- that sounds delusional to me. I’m not saying dysphoria delusional, I’m saying I don’t get how the idea that you’re mentally the opposite sex/gender of your body isn’t delusional.

Basically I’m saying I don’t think dysphoria is delusional, but I do think that gender identity is.

Also- “gender identity” can’t be fixed if it’s different for everyone and open to interpretation. The sense of feeling discomfort in your body can be considered fixed, but if one person says “I identify as a woman because of dysphoria” and another says “I identify as a woman because pink, barbies, and skirt go twirl” and they both call it “gender identity”, they mean two different things. Even when we’ve asked in the past for qt to explain their gender identity, we always got varied answers, some of which contradicted each other. So is it “gender identity”, or is it individual personality and interests etc of people who happen to be trans?

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

You are conflating indentifying with believing you are physically identical to. There’s nothing inaccurate about our perceptions.

You are also conflating interests with identity and, as I just said, I don’t think behavioral expectations should be gendered. It’s about the body. The rest is set dressing.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

I can’t tell if you don’t get what I’m saying or you’re just pretending not to.

What does it mean to identify as a woman/man? What is the answer to that question? How can someone in a female body know for sure, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that they identify as a man (or a male as a woman)?

that is what I’m saying seems like a delusion or at least extremely close to one. The idea that you can identify into something you literally just are not and are not seen as (pre transition, and post for many), that you can identify as something you lack any experience with, seems delusional.

If it’s about body, there’s no room for identity. It would be all physical. I’m not asking you what you think about behavior, “set dressing”, or even the physical aspect, I’m asking how thinking you are something you aren’t is not a delusion.

[–]MarkTwainiac 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Compare it to physical pain. You don’t notice your shoulder until it hurts. If you don’t have any particular feelings on your gender identity, it’s because you are in a body that isn’t incompatible with it.

But most physical pain has biological causes that can be objectively determined and diagnosed. Moreover, there are lots of observable, measurable markers for physical pain, so even when the exact source of a person's physical pain cannot be ascertained, the fact that pain is occurring as a biological phenomenon often can be.

The larger point is, why cannot "gender identity" be explained on its own without those who believe in it constantly resorting to saying it's like this, that or the other completely unrelated things?

I'm not suggesting that those who have psychological distress over their sex and/or claim to have an opposite-sex "gender identity" - or one of the multitude of newer, cooler "gender identities" now in vogue - are not suffering very real emotional pain. I think they/you do suffer, and I am sorry for that. But I don't think anyone has adequately explained "gender identity" or made a convincing case that it's universal and has physical causes.

This is also not to say that a lot of people with very real physical pain haven't had their pain pooh-poohed. This has indeed happened to many people, particularly female ones. I'm just saying that what has been learnt about physical pain in recent decades shows or at least suggests that it usually does have a physical source that with enough looking for it can be found and identified. Whereas there's no evidence that people's claims of being something they are demonstrably, clearly not is caused by conditions rooted in physical, biological reality.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I disagree. At the minimum the brain studies have demonstrated a trend in brain development separating cis men from trans women. (Trans men/natal women go unstudied as far as I know, which would sadly be expected give medical sciences tendency to center the hite and the male).

That’s not to say that it is specifically the same as a natal women, but still distinct from a cis man. I think there is a structural root for dysphoria.

[–]FlanJam[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Aren't you just talking about dysphoria? I get there are people with dysphoria and people without dysphoria, that makes sense to me. Where I'm lost is when people add the extra level of gender-identity on top of that. I don't know why people have dysphoria, but claiming its due to incompatibility between one's body and gender-identity seems like conjecture to me.

From my perspective, people telling me they feel gender-identity sounds like christians telling me they feel the holy spirit inside of them. I understand that's how they feel, but I have no way of telling whether its real or not. Unless someone can show me its real, it just seems like a concept people invented to describe their experiences. And like, that concept can have value as a rough way to describe something, but I have a hard time accepting it as a reified thing.

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

To me dysphoria and being trans are the same. That’s the thing that makes someone trans.

[–]FlanJam[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Yeah ok, I agree with that much. Its only the extra bits about gender id I disagree with.

[–]worried19 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Some of us have strong feelings about the social stuff, but no physical distress.

I'm okay living as a gender nonconforming woman because society allows it. If society didn't allow it, I'd transition. If I couldn't do that, my distress would be severe enough that I would choose to end things.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I don’t consider the social element relevant generally. I think people ought to be free of gendered expectations but hen in talking about dysphoria, it’s purely the physical I am referring to. A trans woman is distinct from an effeminate man no matter how effeminate the man acts.

[–]worried19 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Makes sense. I agree that physical dysphoria is the only kind that should be relevant.

If you don’t have any particular feelings on your gender identity, it’s because you are in a body that isn’t incompatible with it.

Maybe "sex identity" would be a better phrase. Gender identity makes it seem like the social stuff is being talked about.

[–]Porcelain_QuetzalTabby without Ears 2 insightful - 4 fun2 insightful - 3 fun3 insightful - 4 fun -  (1 child)

Even as a trans person I have to say I agree with you in the sense, that gender identity as in relation to the socially constructed gender roles doesn't make a lot of sense. Not just for cis but also for trans people. I personally use the term as the relationships to one's own sex. A mismatch or rejection triggers dysphoria - > urge to transition - > trans. A match does not do the same thing and you're cis. In that context a universally applied gender identity, sex identity would be more accurate, makes a lot sense. But I don't see similar definitions outside of trans medical and truscum places.

[–]FlanJam[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Yeah I see what you're saying. Talking about sex makes more sense. I've said this in other comments: I think it'd be easier if we just said trans people have dysphoria, and leave it at that. The extra layer of gender stuff on top of that seems unnecessary to me.