QT: Doesn't gender-identity only make sense for trans people? Why use it for non-trans people?

submitted by FlanJam from self.GCdebatesQT

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[–]yousaythosethings 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (10 children)

This is a debate sub. How about you explain how gender dysphoria/schizophrenia and gender identity/age identity are not comparable.

I don’t think you realize how much you specifically influenced me in the GC direction when I was on Reddit and just a gay person trying to hear directly from both sides about their positions after initially trying to learn more about trans issues for the purpose of being a better ally and then seeing a bunch of red flags. It’s your fundamental inability to recognize any interest other than your own as legitimate and to conveniently jump to accusing everyone else of bad faith.

[–]Porcelain_QuetzalTabby without Ears 2 insightful - 4 fun2 insightful - 3 fun3 insightful - 4 fun -  (0 children)

You're right this is a debate sub. But most trans people don't take kindly to the comparisons you use, because they're often used to label trans people as mentally ill and in need of treatment, not rights. In addition of that they take a lot of effort to debunk, since they are so similar on a surface level. For schizophrenia you can look at the fact that there is a single case study of antpsychotics beeing used to "cure" a paitent of GID [Poland 1996] while there are multiple cases of schizophrenic trans people. interestingly these are mostly trans men, which is surprising given the spread of it in cis people.

The second is a pretty blatant false analogy. It ignores that trans age or whatever you want to call it is a new development without any precedent, I could find, before the 2010s. It's also not in any way medically documented in the same way gender dysphoria is.

Giving the benefit of the doubt I don't think you're arguing in bad faith, but you're using arguments that are often used to do so. Also the burden of proof is usually on the person claiming that something is. If you you say that these are comparable and are asked why you think so or are asked to proof it then you have to provide proof or, at the very least, your reasoning.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (8 children)

I still absolutely think you are acting in bad faith, but for the reader:

Gender is a social construct age isn't. Also age changes over time and is specifically measurable. Sex and gender identity are both fixed. Also “age identity” isn’t accepted by the medical community, unlike gender dysphoria.

Schizophrenia is entirely unrelated. It’s a different condition than gender dysphoria, and treated separately. In addition to the genetic component observed in schizophrenia and the fact that it operates entirely differently, it represents actually false perception as opposed to simple subjective feelings since I believe delusion is the idea that you are pushing. We accurately perceive our bodies, just found them patently disgusting and uncomfortable. That’s not delusion.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

I have two questions that I’m asking genuinely, not to debate:

  1. Can you claim that something that can’t be clearly defined (gender identity) is fixed? Like can you prove this or explain how it’s certain that it’s as fixed as sex is?

I just mean I don’t think you can make that statement “for the reader” as if it’s fact that’s been accepted and proven when it’s unproven nature is a large part of this very post.

  1. How is seeing a healthy, typically functioning body as wrong or as something that causes distress, or the internal sense that you were born the wrong sex and have a gender identity of the opposite sex not comparable to a false perception to some extent? There’s nothing wrong with a dysphoric person's body, they just don’t feel comfortable in it.

I’m not saying that I think dysphoria and schizophrenia are the same, but to me, the original comment was comparing mental illnesses and how they are addressed and acknowledged by people who don’t have them, not specifically comparing dysphoria and schizophrenia.

Like- you can say finding your body disgusting and uncomfortable is not a delusion, but as I said, we aren’t discussing dysphoria on the post, we’re discussing gender identity. Which seems to be explained as the internal sense that you are the opposite gender as your sex (or the same gender is you’re not trans). How is the idea of gender identity not delusional?

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

If you could change gender identity, there’d be no trans people. They’ve tried to change is. The whole conversion therapy thing.

As you said, it’s not false perception but discomfort. Therefore not delusional. We perceive reality accurately, that’s why we are uncomfortable. If we saw our bodies as we would prefer them we wouldn’t have dysphoria.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

I’m asking about gender identity, someone born in a female body who thinks they are mentally a male- that sounds delusional to me. I’m not saying dysphoria delusional, I’m saying I don’t get how the idea that you’re mentally the opposite sex/gender of your body isn’t delusional.

Basically I’m saying I don’t think dysphoria is delusional, but I do think that gender identity is.

Also- “gender identity” can’t be fixed if it’s different for everyone and open to interpretation. The sense of feeling discomfort in your body can be considered fixed, but if one person says “I identify as a woman because of dysphoria” and another says “I identify as a woman because pink, barbies, and skirt go twirl” and they both call it “gender identity”, they mean two different things. Even when we’ve asked in the past for qt to explain their gender identity, we always got varied answers, some of which contradicted each other. So is it “gender identity”, or is it individual personality and interests etc of people who happen to be trans?

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

You are conflating indentifying with believing you are physically identical to. There’s nothing inaccurate about our perceptions.

You are also conflating interests with identity and, as I just said, I don’t think behavioral expectations should be gendered. It’s about the body. The rest is set dressing.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

I can’t tell if you don’t get what I’m saying or you’re just pretending not to.

What does it mean to identify as a woman/man? What is the answer to that question? How can someone in a female body know for sure, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that they identify as a man (or a male as a woman)?

that is what I’m saying seems like a delusion or at least extremely close to one. The idea that you can identify into something you literally just are not and are not seen as (pre transition, and post for many), that you can identify as something you lack any experience with, seems delusional.

If it’s about body, there’s no room for identity. It would be all physical. I’m not asking you what you think about behavior, “set dressing”, or even the physical aspect, I’m asking how thinking you are something you aren’t is not a delusion.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

How can someone in a female body know for sure, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that they identify as a man (or a male as a woman)?

Because identity is inherently subjective. Just as one might consider being a geek or a fitness afficianado part of who they are. They know that’s how they identify because that’s how they identify. There is supportive evidence certainly like being disgusted by your birth body, but ultimately the nature of identity itself is inherently subjective.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Being a geek or a fitness aficionado is not comparable to identifying as a sex.

But even if it were- Somebody who works out rigorously and eats healthily could understandably consider themselves a fitness aficionado. Someone who doesn’t do those things but considers themselves one would be identifying as something they aren’t. Someone who thinks they’re a fitness aficionado just because they are slim but they don’t work out and put in that effort would be wrong as well. So just because someone slaps a label on themselves doesn’t mean that label is accurate. But most important, “woman” and “man” are not labels or identities. That’s why you and so many other trans people can’t ever explain what gender identity really means in a relatable way, and it’s why it means something different to different trans people.

I can identify as many things. But if I identify as something I’m just not, it doesn’t make sense to act as if me identifying as it or with it means anything significant or that it’s true. I’m an American. If I told people I identified as Russian it wouldn’t be true. Some things are just not things you can identify into, because they are facts. Sometimes you either are or aren’t something and it is that simple, and sex is one of those things.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Isnt it telling that in an effort to describe gender identity, a comparison to common reductive stereotypes in americanised culture like jock is used.

Jock kicks ball far, nerd love math, women cry and shop. Gender identity is an internal sense of which stock character archetype you fit.