GC: Do you genuinely desire to have more trans men in public positions (i.e. acting, politics)?

submitted by GenderbenderShe/her/hers from self.GCdebatesQT

sorted by:
top
newinsightfulfun
you are viewing a single comment's thread.

view the rest of the comments →

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers[S] 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (38 children)

That's never going to happen. There will always be trans men. They will accept themselves as men, not women.

[–]SnowAssMan 15 insightful - 1 fun15 insightful - 0 fun16 insightful - 1 fun -  (35 children)

You're describing a recent phenomenon which is mainly only occurring in the West, among the middle-classes. Why would you assume that trans-men will always think of themselves as men?

There is a movie from 1999 called Boys Don't Cry about a girl who wants to pass as a man (based on a real person). At the time she was a girl, nowadays we revise history to make her a he. 1999 wasn't that long ago. In just as little time the pendulum could swing right back again. Maybe once the economy is better & people are less into conformity, then we could see a return to gender abolition instead of gender appropriation.

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (11 children)

But Brandon Teena identified as a man. Their story hasn’t changed. I remember when the film came out and nothing has been revised about the story.

[–]SnowAssMan 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (10 children)

Then how come the film reviews at the time all refer to the character/person as a girl, using female pronouns throughout?

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

Because the character is female.? I’m sure what is considered correct or respectful in journalism has changed since it came out, but the story hasn’t. Brandon Teena was a transman and that is clear in the film.

[–]SnowAssMan 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

But it's clearly not clear from the reviewers' perspective (I checked multiple ones). They all watched the movie, didn't they? "Trans-men are men" is a very recent claim. Maybe this individual was more like Gemma Barker.

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

I just read some reviews. I certainly haven’t read them all, but the fact Brandon identifies as a boy or man is present in all the ones I’ve seen. Brandon literally insists he is the entire movie. Have you seen it? I do think they weren’t necessarily as artful in referring to trans people back then, so maybe that’s what you picking up on. It was seen a lot more like extreme homosexuality by many so those words would be used. There are many situations where someone is historical is revised to be trans. This isn’t one of those though. Brandon Teena was a transman. He didn’t even die that long ago so many people who knew him are still around. The director of the film has said she intended to portray him as a transman.

[–]SnowAssMan 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

I only watched the documentary. It reminded me very strongly of the more recent UK-based Gemma Barker story.

The only interview I saw of the director was just the same as the reviews, describing the character as a girl & using feminine pronouns. The interview only seems to confirm what I'm saying. The director said she herself was a tomboy & was looking for a story about a woman who subverted gender roles, by taking on the role of a man, she referenced female pirates.

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

I’m not really going to continue because I don’t feel like you are discussing this in good faith. That said, I am super disappointed, based on responses, that many here seem willing to rewrite the story of someone who literally died because they were trans. If it’s wrong to do that to lesbians and GNC women and it should be wrong to do that to transmen. Brandon deserves better.

[–]SnowAssMan 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

The revision of history is in the other direction, mate. Just check the comments on that interview with the director. They are all "correcting" her pronoun usage. Join the crowd.

[–]questioningtw 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

They need to read the book. Reading it sort of made me realize why I get deeply annoyed with QT philosophy where gender is just some sort of game or personality type. This person literally couldn't live as a woman. And it wasn't because of gender stereotypes or anything(most of his friends where actually women even), he just really saw himself as a man and didn't understand why. It was a good book, but really depressing.

[–]questioningtw 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I actually read the book "All He Wanted" by Aphrodite Jones; and there is no way he was was woman. He wasn't even like Buck Angel who lived as a lesbian for a while, he seemed to have extreme gender dysphoria. What was so depressing was in the book, he was actually diagnosed with GID and was supposed to have more therapy so he could get HRT, but for whatever reason decided to take off.

[–]questioningtw 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I am fairly GC and even I think Brendan Teena identified as a man and wanted to live as one. Unlike someone like James Barry who had every reason to disguise their sex because women weren't supposed to be doctors; there was literally no reason for him to live as a man like that. If you read the book the movie was based on, he was in complete denial that he was even female and would lie to everyone and tell them he had an intesexed condition when they got suspicious.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (21 children)

You're describing a recent phenomenon

Trans men have existed since the beginning of time. Just for many years we haven't publically acknowledged trans people.

which is mainly only occurring in the West,

Trans men exist in 3rd world countries.

among the middle-classes.

Trans men come from all walks of life.

Why would you assume that trans-men will always think of themselves as men?

There is a movie from 1999 called Boys Don't Cry about a girl who wants to pass as a man (based on a real person). At the time she was a girl, nowadays we revise history to make her a he.

Even in the documentary, Brandon Teena openly identified as a man. It's just that back then, the media referred to trans people as "cross dressers". Nowadays the media acknowledges trans people but that only started fairly recently.

[–]SnowAssMan 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun -  (15 children)

Revisionism. If you had your way you would categorise the Balkan Sworn Virgins as trans-men. Not every woman who lives as a "man" is a trans-man. Our understanding of transgenderism includes categorising trans-men as men & pathologising the identity – this approach is unique to the here & now.

I said mainly only occurring in the West, among the middle-classes, not 100% of them, the existence of exceptions doesn't dispute this point.

You're saying they were wrong back then, I'm saying they're wrong now. Nowadays even lesbians as feminine as Ellen Page question their gender. Our modern understanding of gender is clearly skewed. When we see any deviation from the norm the assumption is transgenderism.

In Brandon Teena's own words it's a 'sexual identity crisis' that we are dealing with – if you look that up you'll find a lot of results on homosexuality. Lesbians wanting to be boys is far too common to use it as a reference point for "trans-men are men". Lesbianism/gynaephilia is overrepresented in trans-men – what does that tell you? To the critical mind it's all too clear what that evidence points to.

Take the person's sexual orientation into account first before reaching your default conclusion.

[–]questioningtw 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I agree that saying the Balkan Sworn Virgins are trans ids beyond offensive. And I also agree that there are way, way too many girls coming out as trans; actual transdgenderism is very rare. But, they do exist.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (13 children)

I said mainly only occurring in the West, among the middle-classes, not 100% of them, the existence of exceptions doesn't dispute this point.

It’s not mainly only occurring in the west. It’s occurring everywhere. That’s my point.

You're saying they were wrong back then, I'm saying they're wrong now. Nowadays even lesbians as feminine as Ellen Page question their gender.

So you have to be masculine to question your gender identity? So you have to espouse stereotypes of the other gender to question your gender?

When we see any deviation from the norm the assumption is transgenderism.

Not true. I know quite a few gender non-conforming women, including one who wears suits and ties and has short hair. She still identifies as a woman and goes by she/her.

In Brandon Teena's own words it's a 'sexual identity crisis' that we are dealing with – if you look that up you'll find a lot of results on homosexuality.

I’d assume that meant he was questioning whether he was a lesbian woman or a straight man. He ultimately decided he was a man.

Lesbians wanting to be boys is far too common to use it as a reference point for "trans-men are men".

If they have dysphoria of course they’re going to want to be boys. What? Only straight women have dysphoria?

[–]SnowAssMan 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (12 children)

It’s not mainly only occurring in the west. It’s occurring everywhere.

mainly occurring somewhere & occurring everywhere is the same fucking thing, peabrain

So you have to be masculine to question your gender identity? So you have to espouse stereotypes of the other gender to question your gender?

that's what gender is, ignoramus, so yeah – duh

Not true. I know quite a few gender non-conforming women, including one who wears suits and ties and has short hair. She still identifies as a woman and goes by she/her.

You forgot to mention that she constantly gets misgendered, because what I said is true. Remember, I said 'we', not 'she'.

I’d assume that meant he was questioning whether he was a lesbian woman or a straight man. He ultimately decided he was a man.

What a convenient assumption. Too bad the evidence is to the contrary.

If they have dysphoria of course they’re going to want to be boys. What? Only straight women have dysphoria?

What? Only trans people have dysphoria? Seeing as 80% of kids with dysphoria desist, "cis" people with dysphoria outnumber trans people with dysphoria.

Your only setting seems to be: ignore trends & blow outliers out of proportion.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (11 children)

mainly occurring somewhere & occurring everywhere is the same fucking thing, peabrain

I'm saying it's mainly occuring everywhere. There are roughly as many trans people in Kenya as there are in the US.

https://qz.com/africa/1184861/a-writers-account-of-transitioning-and-transcending-gender-shows-being-trans-is-not-un-african/

that's what gender is, ignoramus, so yeah – duh

That's not what gender is. Gender identity is a sense of your own gender. I am a woman who was born female. If I was born male, I would transition. The idea of being male recoils me. Even if I don't like stereotypically femininine things, I still want to be female.

Trans men can still wear dresses, cry, wear makeup, etc. Being transgender doesn't necessarily mean espousing stereotypes of the other sex.

You forgot to mention that she constantly gets misgendered, because what I said is true. Remember, I said 'we', not 'she'.

I've never in my life heard her get misgendered.

What a convenient assumption. Too bad the evidence is to the contrary.

He clearly identified as a trans man and wanted to live as a man.

What? Only trans people have dysphoria? Seeing as 80% of kids with dysphoria desist, "cis" people with dysphoria outnumber trans people with dysphoria.

Some people have dysphoria so severe it can only be alleviated by transition. These people are trans. Yes studies confirm in 80% of children, dysphoria does not persist past puberty. However, for 20% of children it does. There are children who are genuinely trans. I do oppose medically transitioning minors. I don't think kids should be allowed to start hormones until 16 and I think SRS should not be available to minors. However, I am fine with kids identifying as a different gender and going by different pronouns.

[–]SnowAssMan 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (10 children)

try reading your own linked page next time. What part said that there are roughly as many trans people in Kenya as in the US? From the article:

"The possibility that I was an ogbanje occurred to me around the same time I realized I was trans, but it took me a while to collide the two worlds. I suppressed the former for a few years because most of my education had been in the sciences and all of it was Westernized — it was difficult for me to consider an Igbo spiritual world equally, if not more valid. The legacy of colonialism had always taught us that such a world wasn’t real, that it was nothing but juju and superstition. When I finally accepted its validity, I revisited what that could mean for my gender. Did ogbanje even have a gender to begin with?"

"I’ve never heard of anyone like this,” the surgeon told me. He was an old white man who had performed many surgeries on trans patients, from breast augmentations to double mastectomies. “Male to female, female to male, fine. But this in-between thing?"

"she may be an ogbanje, a spirit child that lives between cycles of reincarnation. Found in the Yoruba, Igbo and Urhobo cultures"

"Emezi’s essay is important, because it forces the reader to think beyond the western notions of gender. To Africans, it’s a reminder that our understanding of gender was never binary"

You can pretend that that's the same thing as "trans-men are men" & "trans-womxyn are women", but you'd be wrong.

So you're experiencing gender euphoria lol? I've got to be honest, I don't believe you when you say the thought of being male makes you physically recoil, or that you would transition if you were male. I've asked "cis" people if they would transition or just live with it, if they woke up one day as the opposite sex. They all said they'd make the best of it.

Gender: masculinity, femininity

Sex: male, female

Woman: adult, human female (+ feminine in the 'normative woman')

If a woman can be masculine &/or male, then wtf is a woman? – This is why calling 'woman' gender makes no sense. Even in linguistics gender is masculine & feminine (& neuter). Even if you examine identity theory: 'woman' is a social identity, not a personal identity. It's defined by society. As a person's personal identity salience increases, their social identity salience decreases. Women who are more salient with their personal identity identify less with being women, than those who are more salient with their social identity. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5645049/

I've never in my life heard her get misgendered.

And?

Look up 'sexual identity crisis' again – those are Brandon's own words. "Trans-man" are your words. Ever wondered if there are gay people who are actually trans? Ever wondered the reverse? As long as the fact remains that Brandon's sexual orientation was lesbian/gynophile there will always be a strong possibility that it was just another case of GNC lesbianism. A substantial number of desisters are homosexuals.

[–]VioletRemihomosexual female (aka - lesbian) 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

If for girls it was possible in Kenya to become trans and receive men's privilege, or at least part of it - most women would do that. Same about India and many muslim countries. Women there almost rightless, so being "in between woman and man" would give so much for women. Between 200 to 300 million girls YEARLY are aborted or killed right after birth in those countries, because parents want only 1 kid and they don't want to have rightless and useless successor, so they are trying and trying until get a boy instead. Those girls does not even have a chance to "identify out of womanhood", they are just killed for being female human. And saying that woman/girls are the ones who identify as such erases this and many other problems completely. Women did not chosing to be oppressed, girls are not chosing to be killed before they can even see the light of day for the first time.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

Women don't choose to be oppressed. But being oppressed has nothing to do with identifying as trans. Yes, there are certain careers I'm not allowed into since I'm female, like garbage collection. I'd also like it to be socially acceptable for women to go topless in public. However never in a million years would I identify as trans. I've also been discriminated far more due to a learning disability. I don't want to cure my disability. I want people to stop discriminating against us, like not segregate children in separate classrooms.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

try reading your own linked page next time.

I did. I said trans people are equally everywhere and span all socioeconomic backgrounds.

I've got to be honest, I don't believe you when you say the thought of being male makes you physically recoil, or that you would transition if you were male.

Than don't

I've asked "cis" people if they would transition or just live with it, if they woke up one day as the opposite sex. They all said they'd make the best of it.

That's them, not me.

Look up 'sexual identity crisis' again – those are Brandon's own words.

But Brandon Teena ultimately decided he was a trans man. These are his words, not mine. His friends said he planned to have SRS.

As long as the fact remains that Brandon's sexual orientation was lesbian/gynophile there will always be a strong possibility that it was just another case of GNC lesbianism.

GNC lesbians don't plan to have SRS. Trans men do. What if he was straight and transitioning to a gay man? Would there still be a possibility he wasn't trans?

[–]SnowAssMan 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

The Western approach is unique to the West, as illustrated by your article. Ours is binary-centric & pathological, theirs clearly isn't.

Your anecdotal evidence about yourself or your friend isn't relevant anyway. I wouldn't transition if I woke up as the opposite sex tomorrow, though I would probably hate it, I'd just deal – this isn't relevant either, because none of us can be sure of it anyway.

I'd have to chuck everything I know about gender & gender identity out the window if I accepted that it's somehow innate. Culture isn't innate, which is what gender is. 'Gender' is axiomatic in a number of scientific disciplines & philosophies, & the meaning is fairly consistent. The trans activist meaning is practically the opposite.

There are homophobic homosexuals, & homosexuality is overrepresented in the desisted population, the detrans population & the trans population – put two & two together.

[–]MezozoicGaygay male 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

When the laws were "you do house work and have no rights for education or a job" and for doing "men's" job or getting education while being poor punishment was prison or death, the only way for woman to do anything at all was to present themselves as a man and hope that lies will not be detected, to avoid prison/death. When the only way for lesbians to be together, is for one of them to present as a man. All of them were not transmen, all of them were still women, who tried to achieve at least something, or to be together with their beloved. Similar laws were almost through whole history, and even nowadays at least third of women population in the world as still living under similar laws. Just wanting to live as they want is not making them trans, it makes the society they are in - misogynic and unfair to women. Such society must be challenged with feminism. If will to live normal life and not as a slave makes them men, then what - wanting to live bad life and be subordinated is women's destiny? I don't believe in this, and I know women are as capable as men. And if the only way for young women and girls to escape hate and live normally is to "stop being a women", then it is something really wrong with society around them. Like - really, really wrong.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

My high school had a pants protest in the 1940s. A girl was suspended for wearing pants to school where girls could only wear skirts, so a bunch of girls showed up to school wearing pants in protest.

None of those girls ever became men. They just wanted girls to be able to wear pants in school like boys can. People should only identify as trans if they have dysphoria, not because they don’t like gender norms. There are trans guys who wear dresses, like cis guys and that’s OK. Transgenderism shouldn’t be about gender roles.

[–]CatbugMods allow rape victim blaming in this sub :) 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

But it is and that’s half the problem people have with it.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

To an extent I agree. Some people feel they are non-binary because they wear certain clothes or like certain things. I don't agree with this. You identifying as another sex shouldn't have anything to do with stereotypes or roles.

[–]CatbugMods allow rape victim blaming in this sub :) 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Why is it ok to enforce those stereotypes if you say “I’m non binary :)”?

Why do the stereotypes become good if someone likes them?

[–]VioletRemihomosexual female (aka - lesbian) 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

If society will not change, social pressure and hate towards gnc women will not go away, then yes, there will be transmen and there will be more and more, until only women left are transwomen.

[–]censorshipment 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Unfortunately.