Does GC feminism include trans men?

submitted by GenderbenderShe/her/hers from self.GCdebatesQT

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[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers[S] 1 insightful - 3 fun1 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 3 fun -  (26 children)

Feminism is about human females. Transmen are human females who want to be perceived as "man gender stereotype" by society.

Lesbian is female homosexual, or female who is only attracted to other females. If transmen is attracted to women, then that transmen is lesbian, because transmen is still female human, and women are adult female humans.

My branch of feminism is about anyone who is perceived as female or has been perceived in their lifetime.

Lesbian is female homosexual, or female who is only attracted to other females. If transmen is attracted to women, then that transmen is lesbian, because transmen is still female human, and women are adult female humans.

If you are a lesbian, would you be attracted a trans man fully into their transition? If you are straight, would you be attracted to a passing trans woman?

It is not GC slang, it is gay men slang, because transmen are demanding sex from them, but homosexuality does not work like that. And their demands are plain homophobia, that is why gay men are namecalling them.

Most trans gay men are not demanding sex from cis gay men. There are some that are, like men do in hetero relationships. But I will be clear that is wrong. No one has the right to demand sex from anyone and people are free to refuse sex for any reason. However, this does not mean trans men can't be in gay spaces like gay saunas. However, whether it's appropriate for a trans men to be there depends on the activities and at what stages of transition the trans man is in.

[–]CatbugMods allow rape victim blaming in this sub :) 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

Then your branch is not feminism, it’s feminineism.

It’s not for females, it’s for people who appear feminine. That’s a group of people with wildly different rights, needs, goals, and experiences.

Can whale conservation be considered feminism if I say I want it to or if I say I think it is feminist? How about a group who advocates for men to have the right to sabotage condoms. Can I call that feminist since feminism is not for female people?

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers[S] 1 insightful - 3 fun1 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 3 fun -  (4 children)

Then your branch is not feminism, it’s feminineism.

At least I don't provide lip service to trans men.

It’s not for females, it’s for people who appear feminine. That’s a group of people with wildly different rights, needs, goals, and experiences.

Most branches of feminism reject transphobia. For instance, when r/gendercritical was still up, a user from that sub answered a question on r/askfeminists. The mod of that sub deleted the comment "TERFs are not allowed to pretend to represent feminism". In fact, the term TERF was coined by a radical feminist to separate GC feminists from other feminists.

Can whale conservation be considered feminism if I say I want it to or if I say I think it is feminist?

Sure, if you're a social justice feminist like I am.

[–]CatbugMods allow rape victim blaming in this sub :) 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Feminism isn’t for women it’s for whales.

Cute how you consistently ignore the parts that can’t be warped into whatever everydayfeminism.com says is right.

Dedicated troll or truly the daftest thing ever typed by anyone older than seven?

[–]VioletRemihomosexual female (aka - lesbian) 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

You know, that in many industries, people who will get in rush and compulsively spend a lot of money on something or someone are called "whales"? If talking about those "whales" - then it can make sense, actually. "Our feminism is about people who spend the most money on us".

[–]CatbugMods allow rape victim blaming in this sub :) 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Sounds about as feminist as what gb spouts off.

[–]VioletRemihomosexual female (aka - lesbian) 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (19 children)

If you are a lesbian, would you be attracted a transman fully into their transition?

If without genital cosmetic surgery - I could be. Depends on woman and her personality. It is pretty easy to spot transmen and transwomen - their gait is different (because of bone structure is different, it is physically impossible to have different skeletal structure) and their scent (I have synesthesia and am very good at recognizing odors). One of my far relatives have heavy PCOS and she is very suffering from it, however she is still considering herself a woman, even thought she is looking "more man" than most transmen. I still easily spot a woman in her.

My branch of feminism is about anyone who is perceived as female

It is not feminism then. Words have their meaning, lol. Feminism is about females, not about feminine people.

or has been perceived in their lifetime.

There gay men and drag queens, or metallists who are seen as females from behind sometimes. This "branch of feminism" is pretty metal then ;)

And do not forget, that transmen were perceived as females at one point in their lifetime too, so they are included as well.

trans gay men

And this means trans gay who are men. So males who are became gay somehow, they were not gay but became gay, as trans here is connected to gay, not to men. This mean they were straight and become gay. And same as with female can't become male, straight can't become gay. Biology does not work like that. Conversion therapy does not work, your sexuality will not change no matter what.

Most trans gay men are not demanding sex from cis gay men.

None of transmen gay are demanding sex from gay males, because transmen gay means lesbian, they are straight females who want gay males and not straight males to date them for some reason. While homosexuality does not work like that. And such tries are just plain and clear homophobia. You can not just "chose" what to like as homosexual. If we could - so many problems would gone. I would have few dozen scars and health issues less.

Saying that homosexuality is about gender and not about sex is homophobia, same as words that sexuality is fluid and "we should try opposite sex", and it is same rhetorics that was beaten with legs and fists into me 20 years ago by conservatives. I am not sure why nowadays it is progressives who are repeating word to word this conservative homophobia.

However, if you are speaking about transmen that are into gay males - it depends. Most transmen I know - do bother them. And it is majority of transmen I am aware or have seen in the internet or real life.

this does not mean trans men can't be in gay spaces like gay saunas

Unlike transwomen, who can "kinda" look like similarly-ish to female after all the cosmetic surgeries, transmen - can't. Genital cosmetic surgery for transmen is not making it even remotely close looking to a male, so they are instantly stopping to pass if they getting naked.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (18 children)

If without genital cosmetic surgery - I could be. Depends on woman and her personality. It is pretty easy to spot transmen and transwomen - their gait is different (because of bone structure is different, it is physically impossible to have different skeletal structure) and their scent (I have synesthesia and am very good at recognizing odors). One of my far relatives have heavy PCOS and she is very suffering from it, however she is still considering herself a woman, even thought she is looking "more man" than most transmen. I still easily spot a woman in her.

My dad has the same gait as my sister. I knew a transman and I didn't know he was trans until he told me.

It is not feminism then. Words have their meaning, lol. Feminism is about females, not about feminine people.

Most branches of feminism include transwomen. IMO people get discriminated on their gender presentation instead of sex.

And this means trans gay who are men. So males who are became gay somehow, they were not gay but became gay, as trans here is connected to gay, not to men. This mean they were straight and become gay. And same as with female can't become male, straight can't become gay. Biology does not work like that. Conversion therapy does not work, your sexuality will not change no matter what.

Yes, FTMs become gay.

None of transmen gay are demanding sex from gay males, because transmen gay means lesbian, they are straight females who want gay males and not straight males to date them for some reason. While homosexuality does not work like that. And such tries are just plain and clear homophobia. You can not just "chose" what to like as homosexual. If we could - so many problems would gone. I would have few dozen scars and health issues less.

No one chooses who they are attracted to.

Saying that homosexuality is about gender and not about sex is homophobia, same as words that sexuality is fluid and "we should try opposite sex", and it is same rhetorics that was beaten with legs and fists into me 20 years ago by conservatives. I am not sure why nowadays it is progressives who are repeating word to word this conservative homophobia.

It's not homophobia. Some homosexual people are attracted to people who are trans of their gender, and that's OK.

However, if you are speaking about transmen that are into gay males - it depends. Most transmen I know - do bother them. And it is majority of transmen I am aware or have seen in the internet or real life.

What do you mean by "bother"? Pressure them to have sex? That is wrong of course. There are also cis men who pressure others to have sex.

Unlike transwomen, who can "kinda" look like similarly-ish to female after all the cosmetic surgeries, transmen - can't. Genital cosmetic surgery for transmen is not making it even remotely close looking to a male, so they are instantly stopping to pass if they getting naked.

Depends on the job of the surgeon.

[–]VioletRemihomosexual female (aka - lesbian) 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (17 children)

Most branches of feminism include transwomen.

Most I've seen are not including them actually. However, that depends on what you are calling as feminism.

IMO people get discriminated on their gender presentation instead of sex.

Last year there was a case when one transwoman pre-srugery raped transman with intent to "make queer kids". So no, discrimination is based on sex.

Gender presentation and gender stereotypes are consequences of that discrimination. If you will present as woman and pass as woman, you will be discriminated like woman, but that will be based on assumption that you are female with all the sex differences and ability to make birth. And you will still be missing a lot of discrimination, like tampon tax, low amount of researches on female-only diseases, missing laws about pregnancy, anti-abortion laws, lack of good women's toilets good enough to change menstrual cup or tampons, rape risks are different as well, and so on (and if speaking about 2nd or 3rd world countries, then there much more sexism based on biological sex, like menstruation huts, for example). So you will feel only direct sexism, aimed directly by people, but not the sexism aimed at females as a class and as a biological sex by whole society, not by individuals. Here by "you" I am speaking about some abstract person, not about you personally. Sorry offended somehow by that.

My dad has the same gait as my sister

It is impossible because of the bone structure, females can't move legs straight, our joints are just connected differently to bones, especially around pelvis. Most likely you just don't know on what to look, or maybe it is me, who is too focused on women and too thirsty ;)

Yes, FTMs become gay.

They are staying straight, as they were before. Your own sexuality is not changing. If I can have some agreement that looks can deceive homosexual if transgender person is passing well, but your own sexuality is not changing. The only thing that will change is how you together is perceived by society. However, sexuality is not "how someone else sees you". If it was like that majority of women would be bisexuals.

It's not homophobia

It is. And it is same that I've heard million times. Especially part that some lesbians are attracted to handsome or feminine men and their penises I've heard this hundreds of times aimed to me or other lesbians. This time it is not different.

Some homosexual people are attracted to people who are trans of their gender

Sexuality does not work like that. Even if someone is passing well, lesbian can't be aroused by transwoman when everything is seen, even after surgery it is pretty hard to achieve. However, for some reason majority of transwomen who are having genital cosmetic surgeries are into men, while transwomen who are into lesbians - almost all leaving penises intact and not using heavy blockers, so they are staying functional. And no lesbian can be aroused by penis ever, if women does - she is bisexual, as simple as that.

And lets not forget, that transwomen does not actually have clit and that male body have different erogenic zones, that they do not have periods and so they do not have hormonal changes and big arousements during menstruation.

And that transmen does not have prostate, "balls" and functional penis that can retract and increase/decrease in sizes like a real penis.

Depends on the job of the surgeon.

For transmen, no surgeon can replicate looks and functionality of penis. For transwomen at least looks can be replicated (but not the feel, and not all the important spots, and not the inner part - even good ones are nothing like a real pussy, their scent is very different as well) - and that is if surgeon is supergood. I'd say most straight men would not see the difference, lol. Not the lesbian, tho.

I have personal experience with majority of things I am talking about.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (16 children)

Most I've seen are not including them actually. However, that depends on what you are calling as feminism.

r/feminism, r/askfeminists, the feminists on BabyCenter and all my feminist former professors included trans women in their feminism.

Most I've seen are not including them actually. However, that depends on what you are calling as feminism.

One case. Can you link to it please?

Gender presentation and gender stereotypes are consequences of that discrimination. If you will present as woman and pass as woman, you will be discriminated like woman, but that will be based on assumption that you are female with all the sex differences and ability to make birth. And you will still be missing a lot of discrimination, like tampon tax, low amount of researches on female-only diseases, missing laws about pregnancy, anti-abortion laws, lack of good women's toilets good enough to change menstrual cup or tampons, rape risks are different as well, and so on (and if speaking about 2nd or 3rd world countries, then there much more sexism based on biological sex, like menstruation huts, for example). So you will feel only direct sexism, aimed directly by people, but not the sexism aimed at females as a class and as a biological sex by whole society, not by individuals. Here by "you" I am speaking about some abstract person, not about you personally. Sorry offended somehow by that.

That’s why I include trans women in my feminism. I include trans men

It is impossible because of the bone structure, females can't move legs straight, our joints are just connected differently to bones, especially around pelvis. Most likely you just don't know on what to look, or maybe it is me, who is too focused on women and too thirsty ;

Maybe.

They are staying straight, as they were before. Your own sexuality is not changing. If I can have some agreement that looks can deceive homosexual if transgender person is passing well, but your own sexuality is not changing. The only thing that will change is how you together is perceived by society.

Nope they become gay men, and lesbians become straight.

However, sexuality is not "how someone else sees you". If it was like that majority of women would be bisexuals.

29% of lesbians include trans women in their dating pool, and they’re still lesbian.

It is. And it is same that I've heard million times. Especially part that some lesbians are attracted to handsome or feminine men and their penises I've heard this hundreds of times aimed to me or other lesbians. This time it is not different.

Some lesbians are attracted to trans women, even if they have a penis. Is this a problem?

Sexuality does not work like that. Even if someone is passing well, lesbian can't be aroused by transwoman when everything is seen, even after surgery it is pretty hard to achieve. However, for some reason majority of transwomen who are having genital cosmetic surgeries are into men, while transwomen who are into lesbians - almost all leaving penises intact and not using heavy blockers, so they are staying functional. And no lesbian can be aroused by penis ever, if women does - she is bisexual, as simple as that.

I have personally been attracted to passing trans men.

[–]florasis 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (12 children)

If someone includes males in dating pool, they're bisexuals, not lesbians. A lesbians is an homosexual women, lack of attraction to opposite sex. A lot of bisexuals call themselves lesbians. And anyway, I saw a survey saying that the majority of lesbians willing to date trans, were talking about transmen, ergo females like them

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers[S] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (11 children)

29% of lesbians include transwomen in their dating pool.

[–]florasis 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (10 children)

Where is the data from? And I repeat, they're not real lesbians, they're bisexuals. Whoever inclused males in dating pool isn't a lesbian.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

This study.

[–]florasis 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

Also said " 38% of trans-inclusive lesbians said they wouldn’t date a trans woman"

Anyway, the one who seriously are fine with dating males, and not just saying it to appear political correct aren't homosexual, but bisexuals, ergo not lesbians. We real lesbians, aka homosexual females, are physically incapable of being attracted to opposite sexual characteristics.

[–]VioletRemihomosexual female (aka - lesbian) 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Some lesbians are attracted to trans women, even if they have a penis. Is this a problem?

29% of lesbians include trans women in their dating pool, and they’re still lesbian.

Nope they become gay men, and lesbians become straight.

The level of conversion therapy is insane. Even conservatives weren't as homophobic, lol. Maybe only in Iran.

And "your sexuality depends on someone else" is just golden. From where is 29% number btw?

I don't think I want to continue discussion on this topic, as it hurts (if only anyone was actually thinking about lesbian women feelings, eh).

I have personally been attracted to passing trans men.

In bed, sexually? And you was all wet when seeing pussy? (Edit: Oh, sorry, I actually assumed you are female/woman, maybe you aren't, now I am confused)

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

The level of conversion therapy is insane. Even conservatives weren't as homophobic, lol. Maybe only in Iran.

Lol who is converting you? No one is forcing you to become bi or straight.

And "your sexuality depends on someone else" is just golden. From where is 29% number btw?

This study.

In bed, sexually? And you was all wet when seeing pussy? (Edit: Oh, sorry, I actually assumed you are female/woman, maybe you aren't, now I am confused)

I am a woman who was born female. I am straight. I am attracted to cis men and passing trans men. For me to do something sexually with their genitals they have to be post-op otherwise I'm still willing to do sexual things that don't involve their genitals. I'm not attracted to cis women and passing trans women.

[–]VioletRemihomosexual female (aka - lesbian) 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

That is just asking around, asked 1000 people, half of which were men and half women, part of which were bisexual, part gay men, part lesbian women, part queer (whatever that means). So it isn't that many people. And questions "who would you rather date" is not "are you attracted to X?". I thought there was some serious research, or at least proper questions.

For example, 50% of the trans-inclusive straight women and 28% of the trans-inclusive gay men were willing to date a trans woman, even though one wouldn’t expect either straight women or gay men to be attracted to women. Similarly, 50% of trans-inclusive straight men and 69% of trans-inclusive lesbians said they’d date a trans man, even though both groups are presumably only attracted to women.

Not surprising at all :D

I am straight. I am attracted to cis men and passing trans men. For me to do something sexually with their genitals they have to be post-op otherwise I'm still willing to do sexual things that don't involve their genitals.

And that is expected as well. I know cases when men were aroused by looking at someone with long hair from behind - and when that person turning around and revealing it is just masculine guy, just with good hair, then those men were instantly stopping being aroused. It is normal behaviour. And when judging just by the looks I can like the looks of a man too, and recognize if man is attractive to other women or not, but I will never be aroused by one.