Does GC feminism include trans men?

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[–]Omina_SentenziosaSarcastic Ovalord 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (62 children)

Misgendering. GC probably see this as no big deal, but transmen do.

The importance of biology over gender identity. Transmen probably see this as no big deal, but GC do.

Explain to me why a GC movement should give up on its own main belief to make people who oppose that belief more welcome.

What exactly do you think we should do, start respecting gender identity when our entire movement is based on the fact that gender identity is complete and utter bullshit?

Not listening to trans men. Many GC feminists insist trans men transition to escape misogyny. Indeed, this is true for a small percentage of trans men, but not the majority. However, most trans men don't like this narrative. Another one is insisting trans men are lesbians in denial.

It doesn' t really matter the reason why they do this as far as I am concerned. They still do it and we still think it' s bullshit to call a woman a man and that she is legally recognized as such.

Lack of applicability to trans men. Some things are specific to people assigned female at birth, like pregnancy and menstruation. No doubt these things can affect trans men. However, trans men are better able to pass than trans women, and many trans men say once they pass, they are seen as men. Trans men do have a unique perspective on sexism because they see it from both sides. Many report when transitioning, they are taking more seriously at work, however people start to perceive them as a threat. But GC insists trans men will never pass and will always be seen as female.

I have actually never seen anyone of us saying that trans natal females never pass. We usually agree that they pass better than trans natal males. I have seen some of us saying that trans natal males never pass, which is something I disagree with.

That said, so what? They have a unique experience of sexism, great: and? What exactly should we do on the matter? If they are victims of sexism, they should be protected, if they are perpetuator of sexism (as women or as women pretending to be men) they are part of the problem.

Name calling. One moment GC says trans men are traumatized women escaping misogyny or lesbians in denial, many also say trans men are fetishizing gay men and fujoshis/YAOI and call them creepy. Which one is it?

Both? You lot like to say that you are not a monolith, why is it that it' s only true when it' s beneficial for you?

Counterquestion: if trans men are men, why do they want to be included in a group that centers women?

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

if trans men are men, why do they want to be included in a group that centers women?

Do they? I hear many GC wanting to include transmen to be ideologically consistent because transmen are female, but I’ve rarely heard transmen wanting to be included that way (although many are happy to be allies).

[–]Omina_SentenziosaSarcastic Ovalord 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

It was actually a rethorical question: I suspect that people who ask to include trans men in GC and radical feminism are actually TRAs, be them trans men or not.

At least that is my experience: the only times I have seen it was from "cis" women who stan trans men for one reason or another.

The point is still that OP, however they identify, is telling us what to do to be more inclusive of trans men: so the question is why should they want to be included in a women-centered movement if they are men.

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Ah, thanks for explaining! That makes sense.

[–]VioletRemihomosexual female (aka - lesbian) 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

We usually agree that they pass better than trans natal males.

Not in bed, thought. Transwomen genital cosmetic surgery can make their "neo-vagina" look somewhat similar to vagina from a distance, but transmen genital cosmetic surgery is way too different from actual penises, so straight women and gay men would not accept them as sex partners.

[–]Omina_SentenziosaSarcastic Ovalord 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I was talking about superficial presentation, not when they are naked, that' s a completely different thing. I was simply saying that if a trans person walks behind you on the street, you have more chances to not clock them if they are trans men.

[–]VioletRemihomosexual female (aka - lesbian) 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I was simply saying that if a trans person walks behind you on the street, you have more chances to not clock them if they are trans men.

Oh, I will see. I am a very thirsty lesbian woman, he he.

Male and female body have very different skeletal and muscular structure. In 100 of 100 cases it is easy to determine is it male or female is walking by their gait. Just because bone joints are different and working differently. This means gait will always be different, hands will move differently, etc.

Here short recap: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UEZrNLagwls (especially part about angle on bone connections, angles and joints)

But there much more differences, in the way that muscles are places and how skeletal structure is built. It is one of reasons why males are much faster runners than women (boys in school have similar normatives as women olympic records).

Second thing is scent. I have olfaction synesthesia and I am very sensitive to odors. I can feel "male" odors even in my transsexual friends who are 20+ eyars after transition, with face and genital cosmetic surgeries, who are very passing visually (even down there), however, their sweat still has different odor to any female I've smelled (sometimes it looks creepy, when I am smelling people, lol, I still have problems with this).

And last one - their sensitive zones are very different too. So yeah~

transmen better passing

It is because androgyne hormones are making irreversible changes to body, and "default body" will stay female in womb, if SRY-gene and testosterone would not activate from Y-chromosome. It is a bit rude comparsion, but lets say that female is a tree, and male is a log, while testosterone is carpenter/woodchopper instruments. You can go from a tree to log, but can not go backwards. Obviously it is not how it works even close, but the idea is similar.

Sadly transmen are still females and most "transgender studies" are about transwomen, who are males. If there were more studies about transmen - maybe finally we could get good studies abot PCOS.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers[S] 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (55 children)

The importance of biology over gender identity. Transmen probably see this as no big deal, but GC do. Explain to me why a GC movement should give up on its own main belief to make people who oppose that belief more welcome.

So GC feminism does not include trans men?

It doesn' t really matter the reason why they do this as far as I am concerned. They still do it and we still think it' s bullshit to call a woman a man and that she is legally recognized as such.

OK but if you claim your feminism includes trans men, please don't speak over trans men as to why they transitioned.

I have actually never seen anyone of us saying that trans natal females never pass.

I linked to a post on ovarit where GC feminists wrote in the image

Transwomen don't even consider you male and degrade your female bodies. These males claim you have male privilege, and you stupidly believe them, ignoring their misogyny and sexism towards you. You women hate yourselves so much that you will happily abolish the rights of your own sex just to be "one of the guys", but you never will be. You can identify as a male, but everyone will still treat you like a female.

I linked to an article on Time magazine where trans men reported they were treated better work once they transitioned. In fact, some trans men didn't know how bad women had it at work until they transitioned. Male colleagues called female colleagues the c-word in front of them, not knowing they were trans.

Both? You lot like to say that you are not a monolith, why is it that it' s only true when it' s beneficial for you?

So you can be a lesbian in denial and fetishizing gay men at the same time?

Both? You lot like to say that you are not a monolith, why is it that it' s only true when it' s beneficial for you?

They don't have to be included, but it's often GC who say they include trans men even when trans men say the opposite.

[–]Omina_SentenziosaSarcastic Ovalord 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (52 children)

So GC feminism does not include trans men?

Yes it does: as women, though.

OK but if you claim your feminism includes trans men, please don't speak over trans men as to why they transitioned.

We don' t speak over them, they are free to say whatever they want about their reasons. We do, however, have the right to have and voice an opinion.

I linked to a post on ovarit where GC feminists wrote in the image

None of the sentences you have boldened claim that trans natal females never pass. They say that, as a category, they are treated as women even if they identify as men. Which is true, given that the image you have linked is a quote from a trans natal male who wants to use "men" to be their uterus stations.

That said, I am sure some of us do believe that no trans person ever passes: I disagree. But I agree with them that, in general, they are treated like women as a category.

I linked to an article on Time magazine where trans men reported they were treated better work once they transitioned. In fact, some trans men didn't know how bad women had it at work until they transitioned. Male colleagues called female colleagues the c-word in front of them, not knowing they were trans.

As I said, I disagree that they never pass. I still don' t understand what this has to do with anything: even if they passed, they are just women presenting as men.

So you can be a lesbian in denial and fetishizing gay men at the same time?

First of all, I was talking for the category, not single persons. Lots of trans men can be described as lesbians in denial. Others can be described as fetishizing gay men. THat said, I don' t really see what is s weird in being a lesbian in denial and fetishizing gay men at the same time. We have people who fetishize anything, but this is too much of a stretch? Please.

They don't have to be included, but it's often GC who say they include trans men even when trans men say the opposite.

We include them as women in our fight for sex based rights. End of. We don' t give a damn about their identity, they are women for us and as such they are included. If they don' t like that we don' t kiss their ass, of course they probably don' t feel included. Still, we are not going to make space for an ideology that we consider nonsensical at best and incredibly dangerous at worst just because of them. Pro-life women are also included in our sex based rights fight and we don' t keep an open mind and a "boths sides are right" mentality when it comes to abortion. I am pretty sure they too would feel excluded under these premises. It doesn' t change the fact that when we succeed in something, we don' t make sure that pro-life women are excluded. Same goes for trans natal females.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers[S] 1 insightful - 3 fun1 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 3 fun -  (28 children)

Yes it does: as women, though.

They technically aren't women, but OK.

We don' t speak over them, they are free to say whatever they want about their reasons. We do, however, have the right to have and voice an opinion.

I agree GC is entitled to opinions just as much as trans men are.

None of the sentences you have boldened claim that trans natal females never pass. They say that, as a category, they are treated as women even if they identify as men. Which is true, given that the image you have linked is a quote from a trans natal male who wants to use "men" to be their uterus stations. That said, I am sure some of us do believe that no trans person ever passes: I disagree. But I agree with them that, in general, they are treated like women as a category.

Pre-transition trans men are still treated as women as a category. However, once they are well into their transition, they are treated like men. It's not like catcallers or potential employers have x-ray vision to see if someone has a uterus or XX chromosomes. Though trans men experience transphobia and sexism if someone finds out their trans. I spend a lot of time reading r/FTM and r/gendercynical, so I know this is what actual trans men say.

First of all, I was talking for the category, not single persons. Lots of trans men can be described as lesbians in denial. Others can be described as fetishizing gay men. THat said, I don' t really see what is s weird in being a lesbian in denial and fetishizing gay men at the same time. We have people who fetishize anything, but this is too much of a stretch? Please.

But they aren't either. When you transition. your sexuality changes. If you were previously a straight woman, you are a gay man. If you were previously a lesbian, you are a straight man. I am straight. I am attracted to cis men and trans men only if they transitioned and had surgery. I am not attracted to cis women or trans women who transitioned or no longer have a penis.

We include them as women in our fight for sex based rights. End of. We don' t give a damn about their identity, they are women for us and as such they are included. If they don' t like that we don' t kiss their ass, of course they probably don' t feel included.

Nearly all branches of feminism fight for abortions, access to birth control, anti-street harassment, even for trans women. All of these branches of feminism listen to trans men and their lived experiences (even trans women as well) and none of them insult trans men.

[–]Omina_SentenziosaSarcastic Ovalord 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (27 children)

They technically aren't women, but OK.

You' re right, some of them are girls.

I agree GC is entitled to opinions just as much as trans men are.

They are, when did I, or other Gcers, have said they shouldn' t have their opinions? Most of us don' t really care what they do to themselves, we just don' t want to be forced to pretend with them.

Pre-transition trans men are still treated as women as a category. However, once they are well into their transition, they are treated like men. It's not like catcallers or potential employers have x-ray vision to see if someone has a uterus or XX chromosomes. Though trans men experience transphobia and sexism if someone finds out their trans. I spend a lot of time reading r/FTM and r/gendercynical, so I know this is what actual trans men say.

As I already said, the issue is category vs individual. Trans natal males keep talking over trans natal females like men do with women. Trans natal females are mostly in the press when they get pregnant, while trans natal males are in the press for political, sport. artistic or economic successes.

So yes, a random trans natal female who passes as a man doesn' t get catcalled: she does, however, belong to a category that gets suspiciously treated as the category of women.

But they aren't either. When you transition. your sexuality changes. If you were previously a straight woman, you are a gay man. If you were previously a lesbian, you are a straight man.

LOL, no. Their sexuality stays the same: they are still attracted to men. They just change the label to validate themselves, but a straight woman doesn' t become a gay man, she becomes a straight woman who calls herself a gay man.

I am straight. I am attracted to cis men and trans men only if they transitioned and had surgery. I am not attracted to cis women or trans women who transitioned or no longer have a penis.

Congratulations for your bisexuality!!!!!!

Nearly all branches of feminism fight for abortions, access to birth control, anti-street harassment, even for trans women. All of these branches of feminism listen to trans men and their lived experiences (even trans women as well) and none of them insult trans men.

Good for them, and? You should spend your time praising them instead of whining that we are not welcoming enough if that is what you think.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers[S] 1 insightful - 3 fun1 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 3 fun -  (26 children)

You're right, some of them are girls.

I mean they aren't female, no matter what GC thinks.

As I already said, the issue is category vs individual. Trans natal males keep talking over trans natal females like men do with women. Trans natal females are mostly in the press when they get pregnant, while trans natal males are in the press for political, sport. artistic or economic successes.

GC also talks over trans men. Though I suggest listrbubg to trans men as a class before making determinations.

LOL, , no. Their sexuality stays the same: they are still attracted to men. They just change the label to validate themselves, but a straight woman doesn' t become a gay man, she becomes a straight woman who calls herself a gay man.

It does change, because straight men and lesbians are not attracted to men.

Congratulations for your bisexuality!!!!!!

I'm not bisexual. I'm attracted to MEN, like Brad Pitt, Lebron James, Buck Angel, Zac Efron. I am not attracted to women like Oprah, Megan Fox, Laverne Cox, or Jessica Alba. Take Lauren Jackson for example, the trans woman who was assaulted for using the women's bathroom. She wasn't completely transitioned, and even though age identified as a female, I can still be attracted to her. However, once she transitioned and lost her masculine features, I am no longer attracted to her. If a trans men passes and has bottom surgery I am attracted to them. If they hadn't had bottom surgery, I am still willing to do sexual things with them that don't involve their genitals. This doesn't make me bisexual, this makes me straight. If I were bisexual I would be attracted to women.

Good for them, and? You should spend your time praising them instead of whining that we are not welcoming enough if that is what you think.

I praise them, and I praise the trans movement, even if it has its issues (which it does).

[–]yishengqingwa666 9 insightful - 5 fun9 insightful - 4 fun10 insightful - 5 fun -  (0 children)

LOL, bye.

[–]Omina_SentenziosaSarcastic Ovalord 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (24 children)

I mean they aren't female, no matter what GC thinks.

Oh, you' re one of those people who think that transitioning and/or identification changes your sex.

I don' t have the energy to waste my time trying to change your mind given that I can see you are too far gone to accept reality. I will, however, use your comments the next time someone tells me that there is no chance in hell that a trans person/TRA is dumb enough to actually think that trans people are the sex they claim to be.

GC also talks over trans men. Though I suggest listrbubg to trans men as a class before making determinations.

I have been listening to them: lots of them complain that trans natal males talk over them exactly like men talk over women.

It does change, because straight men and lesbians are not attracted to men.

No shit? But the fact that you are still attracted to the same people you were attracted to before transitioning, means that your sexual orientation didn' t change. The only thing you changed is the name you call yourself because of your sexuality, because you think you have changed sex. You haven' t, and you haven' t changed sexuality either.

I'm not bisexual. I'm attracted to MEN, like Brad Pitt, Lebron James, Buck Angel, Zac Efron.

So you are attracted to males and females who present as males.

That' s called bisexuality.

[–]VioletRemihomosexual female (aka - lesbian) 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I have been listening to them: lots of them complain that trans natal males talk over them exactly like men talk over women.

Reminded me that rugby situation, when transman was included in men's team and that transman was talking about transgenders in sports, but still was silenced because "transman was included, but that does not matter, because transwoman was denied for too high levels of testosterone".

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers[S] 1 insightful - 3 fun1 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 3 fun -  (22 children)

Oh, you' re one of those people who think that transitioning and/or identification changes your sex.

I mean socially passing trans men are not treated as female, so it doesn't make sense for GC to include trans men in most of their activism. But we do acknowledge not all sex characteristics can be changed.

I have been listening to them: lots of them complain that trans natal males talk over them exactly like men talk over women.

Yes, trans women get move visibility than trans men. But trans men on r/FTM have posted anti-GC threads. Here are a few.

Gender critical finally got banned today!!!

Can we talk about how to deal with TERFs?

Why did I decide that arguing with a terf was a good idea

feeling ashamed because of things terfs accuse trans men of

Had a very unpleasant encounter with a TERF classmate who tried to “convert” me

They even use the term TERF in their title, which GC considers a slur.

No shit? But the fact that you are still attracted to the same people you were attracted to before transitioning, means that your sexual orientation didn' t change. The only thing you changed is the name you call yourself because of your sexuality, because you think you have changed sex. You haven' t, and you haven' t changed sexuality either.

Yes it's the label for your sexual orientation that changes. As a straight woman I will tell you I'm attracted to pre-transition trans women but not post-transition trans women. This will depend on how far into transition they are.

So you are attracted to males and females who present as males.

That' s called bisexuality.

That's called heterosexuality. Aren't most people attracted to gender presentation?

[–]Omina_SentenziosaSarcastic Ovalord 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (17 children)

I mean socially passing trans men are not treated as female

That' s not what you said. You said that trans men are not female.

so it doesn't make sense for GC to include trans men in most of their activism. But we do acknowledge not all sex characteristics can be changed.

If you acknowledge that not all sex characteristics can be changed, then you should understand that those characteristics that can' t be changed and come from female biology are what we focus on when we say we include trans natal females in our activism and why they are female.

Yes, trans women get move visibility than trans men. But trans men on r/FTM have posted anti-GC threads.

Great, then they can stay as far away as they want. We are not forcing them to join us, and we are not forcing them to use whatever right radical feminism fights for.

Yes it's the label for your sexual orientation that changes. As a straight woman I will tell you I'm attracted to pre-transition trans women but not post-transition trans women. This will depend on how far into transition they are.

It' s called "I like men who present as men and don' t like men who present as women".

That's called heterosexuality.

Heterosexuality means being attracted to the opposite sex. Being attracted to both sexes is bisexuality.

Aren't most people attracted to gender presentation?

No. Liking someone' s gender presentation is not sexual orientation, it' s a preference. And most people care more about the body of the person who "presents" as one gender or the other than the presentation. That means that a straight man might mistake another man for a woman if he passes well enough and could find him attractive, but the second he learns that the guy in question still has a penis, he' s going to stop being attracted and interested. Unless he' s bisexual.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers[S] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (16 children)

That' s not what you said. You said that trans men are not female.

Socially they are not. They are men.

If you acknowledge that not all sex characteristics can be changed, then you should understand that those characteristics that can' t be changed and come from female biology are what we focus on when we say we include trans natal females in our activism and why they are female.

That's like a feminist using albeist slurs and then claiming to include disabled people. I am learning disabled.

Great, then they can stay as far away as they want. We are not forcing them to join us, and we are not forcing them to use whatever right radical feminism fights for.

They do with GC feeling sorry for them and calling them handmaidens.

It' s called "I like men who present as men and don' t like men who present as women".

Which is heterosexuality.

Heterosexuality means being attracted to the opposite sex. Being attracted to both sexes is bisexuality.

So people are actually attracted to uterus and prostates and chromosomes and not bodies?

No. Liking someone' s gender presentation is not sexual orientation, it' s a preference. And most people care more about the body of the person who "presents" as one gender or the other than the presentation. That means that a straight man might mistake another man for a woman if he passes well enough and could find him attractive, but the second he learns that the guy in question still has a penis, he' s going to stop being attracted and interested. Unless he' s bisexual.

It is a sexual orientation. By the way I said I am not attracted to vaginas so if he has a vagina I will not date him but am willing to do sexual things with him that don't involve his vagina.

[–]worried19 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

That's called heterosexuality. Aren't most people attracted to gender presentation?

I don't get this viewpoint. Is my male partner gay or bisexual because I have a masculine gender presentation? Or do you think there need to be hormones involved?

[–]VioletRemihomosexual female (aka - lesbian) 5 insightful - 3 fun5 insightful - 2 fun6 insightful - 3 fun -  (2 children)

Yeah, this will mean that other people sexual orientation depends on you. And not on them. And this means that sexual orientation can be changed, which is false.

[–]Porcelain_QuetzalTabby without Ears 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (22 children)

We don' t speak over them, they are free to say whatever they want about their reasons. We do, however, have the right to have and voice an opinion

Technically you can say anything. You have the right to say that. But once you try to replace someone's actual experience with your opinion you're indeed speaking over them. You're also invalidating them by cramming their experience to fit your world view. It's not that different from saying "she's just hysterical".

P. S.: that's the broadest possible application of included I can imagine. To that point its almost meaningless.

[–]Omina_SentenziosaSarcastic Ovalord 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (21 children)

Speaking over means silencing them/ignoring them, and replacing their words with yours as the only true narrative, especially in official settings. Which we are not doing. They can say what they want about their experiences, and we can comment and share our opinions on the matter. That' s how I use it, at least.

It's not that different from saying "she's just hysterical".

OP has said it themselves that some of the things we say indeed happen. So no, it' s not the same at all, because "you' re hysterical" is used to demean our opinions, "you' re a selfhating lesbian and that' s why you have transitioned" is used to criticize their ideology more than them as people.

P. S.: that's the broadest possible application of included I can imagine. To that point its almost meaningless.

I have no idea what you mean with this.

[–]Porcelain_QuetzalTabby without Ears 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (16 children)

Just because your movement isn't big enough to silence trans men does not mean that you guys aren't trying to speak over them. Let's just assume you guys were the dominant force. Then the dominant narrative would be, that trans men want to escape misogyny.

The argument of "im just sharing my opinion" is a tired one. Sure you can share it. Doesn't make it correct. If you want to create a narrative that does not reflect reality, then go ahead. But don't say you include those whose reality your narrative is not reflecting.

How do you know someone is a self hating lesbian and not a dysphoric dude?

If GCs include trans men, then the word includes has no meaning beyond a technicality.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 10 insightful - 7 fun10 insightful - 6 fun11 insightful - 7 fun -  (0 children)

If you want to create a narrative that does not reflect reality, then go ahead.

LMFAO!!! Sorry I just find it amusing when QT says stuff like this. The irony of it always gets to me.

[–]Omina_SentenziosaSarcastic Ovalord 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

The argument of "im just sharing my opinion" is a tired one. Sure you can share it. Doesn't make it correct.

That goes both ways. That' s the point.

How do you know someone is a self hating lesbian and not a dysphoric dude?

I don' t and I don' t care. As I already said, I don' t give a damn about the reasons why they do it, all I care about is that they do it.

If GCs include trans men, then the word includes has no meaning beyond a technicality.

Then they are included as a technicality. You know what they should do to be 100% honest? Give up on the rights that women have fought and gained and start from zero to get their own. That includes things like abortion. If they use them, they are admitting themselves that they are included in GC/radfem feminism.

[–]Porcelain_QuetzalTabby without Ears 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (7 children)

Sorry I fumbled an the last comment isn't all I had to say. I'll delete it later.

That goes both ways. That' s the point

How does this relate to the issue ad hand. I'm afraid I don't understand what you're getting at.

I don' t and I don' t care. As I already said, I don' t give a damn about the reasons why they do it, all I care about is that they do it.

So if you don't know, why do you assert that someone is? What makes you, who is unknowing, able to speak on these issues in way that deserves to be heard? Why do you care about what they do?

Then they are included as a technicality.

The same technicality by which German nationalists include immigrants. If that's your bar for inclusion, then the democrats include Donald trump. If he became a Democrat theyd probably include him. He is an American after all.

You know what they should do to be 100% honest? Give up on the rights that women have fought and gained and start from zero to get their own. That includes things like abortion.

What does this have to do with honesty? I'm sorry but I don't get it. Is everyone dishonest who profits from something they or their groups hasn't fought for? Are the Harlem hellfighters dishonest for accepting French medals and profiting on the lack of prejudice in the French army? They as Americans haven't done anything to achieve it after all?

admitting themselves that they are included in GC/radfem feminism.

Because GC has a monopoly on abortion? Or is that because you see urself as the follow up to second wave UK feminism? Also GC and Radfems arent synonymous so don't use them like they are.

[–]Omina_SentenziosaSarcastic Ovalord 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

How does this relate to the issue ad hand. I'm afraid I don't understand what you're getting at.

What I am getting at is that trans men are giving their opinion on what makes them trans men. It doesn' t mean that they are right.

So if you don't know, why do you assert that someone is? What makes you, who is unknowing, able to speak on these issues in way that deserves to be heard? Why do you care about what they do?

So your opinion is that I should shut up about anything that doesn' t come directly from personal experience? Ok, so my experience as a female is that lots of females would do very idiotic things, including transitioning, to escape their status as female. That is 100% allowed according to your standards given that I am talking about a category I am part of, right? Great!

Furthermore, I didn' t say that my opinion is worth being heard, I just said that it' s my opinion. Only you can decide whether what I say is worthy or not. You have decided it isn' t, others disagree.

Also, what exactly is the point you are making? That I should just stop having an opinion about anyone that isn' t exactly like me? Or is it that I can have an opinion as long as it' s 100% in line with what they say? I should just shut my brain off and stop thinking with my own head? Sorry, I don' t work that way.

And I don' t care what they do, I care what I do and say. That includes what I am allowed to voice. Plus, I don' t know if you have noticed, but this is a debate sub that has as a main topic exactly the thing you say I shouldn' t talk about.

Why do you care so much about what I do/say?

The same technicality by which German nationalists include immigrants. If that's your bar for inclusion, then the democrats include Donald trump. If he became a Democrat theyd probably include him. He is an American after all.

Yeah, if someone became a democrat, he would be included in the democratic party. Be that person Donald Trump or anyone else.

What does this have to do with honesty? I'm sorry but I don't get it.

Those services were allowed thanks to those awful radical feminists who fought for those services. And they were/are intended for women. If trans men are men and don' t feel included in our fights and our category, they should start from zero and get abortion for men instead of using the one that was won for women. That' s what I meant with honesty: if they are not women and don' t have any kinship with women, they should detach themselves from anything that was created and intended for women and get their own. Since they are not doing it (as they shouldn' t because they are women), then they are automatically included in our category, our fights and our feminism.

[–]Porcelain_QuetzalTabby without Ears 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

And why would you be more correct? Beeing neither affected not an expert?

your opinion is that I should shut up about anything that doesn' t come directly from personal experience?

If you aren't either that or educated your opinion holds almost no weight. You can have your own opinion. But once you put your opinion above those who are more familiar, that is the issue. Not sure what tantrum you're throwing. So let me ask again. Why is you're opinion more deserving to be heard than those affected or those of experts? Why can your opinion push for legislation over these? Incidentally this is the reason why I care. Your opinion wants to change something. That's why I care.

if someone became a democrat, he would be included in the democratic party. Be that person Donald Trump or anyone else

Would it then be reasonable to say he is included now?

Your conflating GC and radical feminism. These two aren't the same. You can be radical and include trans women in your feminism. Just because a lot of UK feminists went down the GC route does not mean it's the only one.

[–]Porcelain_QuetzalTabby without Ears 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Why do you care what other people do so much?

[–]worried19 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

If GCs include trans men, then the word includes has no meaning beyond a technicality.

But if we include all female-born people, that means even the ones who don't want to be associated with us. What's the difference between GC including trans men and GC including conservative Republican Trump-loving women?

[–]Porcelain_QuetzalTabby without Ears 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

The big difference is that, while if GC won conservative women would still exist trans men wouldn't.. We're talking about a group that sees the very existence of transsexualism as a human rights violation. It's not that trans men don't want to be associated with you.

[–]worried19 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

How do you figure that? GC is for gender abolition on the social level. No one that I've seen has proposed making it illegal for adults to have alterations done to their bodies. If there are people saying that hormones and surgeries should be outlawed, I definitely would not support it. If a woman can get breast implants, a trans man should be able to get a mastectomy, as long as both are of sound mind and intellectually capable of making that decision for themselves. I've never seen GC say they're against plastic surgery, except on minors.

We're talking about a group that sees the very existence of transsexualism as a human rights violation.

I mean, I don't see how it could be a human rights violation if we're talking about adults who are deciding for themselves. What's happening in Iran is a human rights violation because the poor people there are being threatened with violence and death. That's not happening in the Western world. There may be social pressure, but the state is not forcibly transitioning any adults.

[–]Porcelain_QuetzalTabby without Ears 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

You're not the majority of the GC movement. Or the vocal part that actually pushes for legislation infront of the UK parliament. That part can't possibly include any transsexual wether man or woman.

I'm not sure about the plastic surgery part. The issue is, that your movement is pushing the idea that trans people are delusional or forced [by the patriarchy]. This means, that no transsexual would be allowed surgery for transition. So if a movement say "surgery is okay as long as they are able to make the decision themselves" while at same time pushing that the people who seek them out aren't able to make that decision, seems dishonest. Please don't feel attacked. I doubt you think we are delusional. It's just that once looked at in the context of the movement the point looses a lot of weight.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

OP has said it themselves that some of the things we say indeed happen.

I did say some trans men do transition due to misogyny, as some detransitioned women attested on the former r/gendercritical. However, the majority of trans men transition due to legit dysphoria. GC likes to imply the majority of trans men transition due to misogyny, which isn't the case. In that case GC is speaking over trans men.

[–]Omina_SentenziosaSarcastic Ovalord 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

And as I already said, they are free to ignore us and move on with their life. Nobody is forcing them to join us or like us.

[–]divingrightintowork 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

What do you base these numbers off of? I'm not saying your wrong but it's just a claim that should have some substantiation, including rates and reasons for detransitioners as well as transitioners.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

https://www.nbcnews.com/feature/nbc-out/media-s-detransition-narrative-fueling-misconceptions-trans-advocates-say-n1102686

In a 2015 survey of nearly 28,000 people conducted by the U.S.-based National Center for Transgender Equality, only 8 percent of respondents reported detransitioning, and 62 percent of those people said they only detransitioned temporarily. The most common reason for detransitioning, according to the survey, was pressure from a parent, while only 0.4 percent of respondents said they detransitioned after realizing transitioning wasn’t right for them.

https://medium.com/@sethkatz.art/feminist-trans-men-the-narrative-of-internalized-misogyny-9628e0488c13

Apparently, the idea is that our nonbinary or transmasculine identities are based in either trauma or internalized misogyny; both that can be overcome. Yes, as a trans man I have understandably separated myself from my identity as a “woman,” but this isn’t because I hate women or womanhood. It isn’t because of some trauma I faced while socialized as a woman that I’m struggling to escape. It isn’t a desperate attempt to flee structural misogyny. As obvious as it sounds, I transitioned simply because I am a man.

I don’t want to oversimplify a concept so nuanced and complex, but when it comes down to it, I identify as a man because I am one. The idea of my gender stemming from internalized misogyny seems ridiculous to me because not only am I a man, but I’m also a feminist ally. The two don’t have to be, nor should they be, mutually exclusive.

https://www.economist.com/open-future/2018/07/03/the-idea-that-trans-men-are-lesbians-in-denial-is-demeaning-and-wrong

The idea that trans men are “lesbians in denial” is demeaning and wrong

[–]blackrainbow 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

So you can be a lesbian in denial and fetishizing gay men at the same time?

Some ftmtf detrans experienced that (like the youtuber GNC centric)

[–]worried19 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

She made a really interesting video about that, too.

How a lesbian can believe she is a gay trans man