Does GC feminism include trans men?

submitted by GenderbenderShe/her/hers from self.GCdebatesQT

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[–]Omina_SentenziosaSarcastic Ovalord 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (27 children)

They technically aren't women, but OK.

You' re right, some of them are girls.

I agree GC is entitled to opinions just as much as trans men are.

They are, when did I, or other Gcers, have said they shouldn' t have their opinions? Most of us don' t really care what they do to themselves, we just don' t want to be forced to pretend with them.

Pre-transition trans men are still treated as women as a category. However, once they are well into their transition, they are treated like men. It's not like catcallers or potential employers have x-ray vision to see if someone has a uterus or XX chromosomes. Though trans men experience transphobia and sexism if someone finds out their trans. I spend a lot of time reading r/FTM and r/gendercynical, so I know this is what actual trans men say.

As I already said, the issue is category vs individual. Trans natal males keep talking over trans natal females like men do with women. Trans natal females are mostly in the press when they get pregnant, while trans natal males are in the press for political, sport. artistic or economic successes.

So yes, a random trans natal female who passes as a man doesn' t get catcalled: she does, however, belong to a category that gets suspiciously treated as the category of women.

But they aren't either. When you transition. your sexuality changes. If you were previously a straight woman, you are a gay man. If you were previously a lesbian, you are a straight man.

LOL, no. Their sexuality stays the same: they are still attracted to men. They just change the label to validate themselves, but a straight woman doesn' t become a gay man, she becomes a straight woman who calls herself a gay man.

I am straight. I am attracted to cis men and trans men only if they transitioned and had surgery. I am not attracted to cis women or trans women who transitioned or no longer have a penis.

Congratulations for your bisexuality!!!!!!

Nearly all branches of feminism fight for abortions, access to birth control, anti-street harassment, even for trans women. All of these branches of feminism listen to trans men and their lived experiences (even trans women as well) and none of them insult trans men.

Good for them, and? You should spend your time praising them instead of whining that we are not welcoming enough if that is what you think.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers[S] 1 insightful - 3 fun1 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 3 fun -  (26 children)

You're right, some of them are girls.

I mean they aren't female, no matter what GC thinks.

As I already said, the issue is category vs individual. Trans natal males keep talking over trans natal females like men do with women. Trans natal females are mostly in the press when they get pregnant, while trans natal males are in the press for political, sport. artistic or economic successes.

GC also talks over trans men. Though I suggest listrbubg to trans men as a class before making determinations.

LOL, , no. Their sexuality stays the same: they are still attracted to men. They just change the label to validate themselves, but a straight woman doesn' t become a gay man, she becomes a straight woman who calls herself a gay man.

It does change, because straight men and lesbians are not attracted to men.

Congratulations for your bisexuality!!!!!!

I'm not bisexual. I'm attracted to MEN, like Brad Pitt, Lebron James, Buck Angel, Zac Efron. I am not attracted to women like Oprah, Megan Fox, Laverne Cox, or Jessica Alba. Take Lauren Jackson for example, the trans woman who was assaulted for using the women's bathroom. She wasn't completely transitioned, and even though age identified as a female, I can still be attracted to her. However, once she transitioned and lost her masculine features, I am no longer attracted to her. If a trans men passes and has bottom surgery I am attracted to them. If they hadn't had bottom surgery, I am still willing to do sexual things with them that don't involve their genitals. This doesn't make me bisexual, this makes me straight. If I were bisexual I would be attracted to women.

Good for them, and? You should spend your time praising them instead of whining that we are not welcoming enough if that is what you think.

I praise them, and I praise the trans movement, even if it has its issues (which it does).

[–]yishengqingwa666 9 insightful - 5 fun9 insightful - 4 fun10 insightful - 5 fun -  (0 children)

LOL, bye.

[–]Omina_SentenziosaSarcastic Ovalord 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (24 children)

I mean they aren't female, no matter what GC thinks.

Oh, you' re one of those people who think that transitioning and/or identification changes your sex.

I don' t have the energy to waste my time trying to change your mind given that I can see you are too far gone to accept reality. I will, however, use your comments the next time someone tells me that there is no chance in hell that a trans person/TRA is dumb enough to actually think that trans people are the sex they claim to be.

GC also talks over trans men. Though I suggest listrbubg to trans men as a class before making determinations.

I have been listening to them: lots of them complain that trans natal males talk over them exactly like men talk over women.

It does change, because straight men and lesbians are not attracted to men.

No shit? But the fact that you are still attracted to the same people you were attracted to before transitioning, means that your sexual orientation didn' t change. The only thing you changed is the name you call yourself because of your sexuality, because you think you have changed sex. You haven' t, and you haven' t changed sexuality either.

I'm not bisexual. I'm attracted to MEN, like Brad Pitt, Lebron James, Buck Angel, Zac Efron.

So you are attracted to males and females who present as males.

That' s called bisexuality.

[–]VioletRemihomosexual female (aka - lesbian) 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I have been listening to them: lots of them complain that trans natal males talk over them exactly like men talk over women.

Reminded me that rugby situation, when transman was included in men's team and that transman was talking about transgenders in sports, but still was silenced because "transman was included, but that does not matter, because transwoman was denied for too high levels of testosterone".

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers[S] 1 insightful - 3 fun1 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 3 fun -  (22 children)

Oh, you' re one of those people who think that transitioning and/or identification changes your sex.

I mean socially passing trans men are not treated as female, so it doesn't make sense for GC to include trans men in most of their activism. But we do acknowledge not all sex characteristics can be changed.

I have been listening to them: lots of them complain that trans natal males talk over them exactly like men talk over women.

Yes, trans women get move visibility than trans men. But trans men on r/FTM have posted anti-GC threads. Here are a few.

Gender critical finally got banned today!!!

Can we talk about how to deal with TERFs?

Why did I decide that arguing with a terf was a good idea

feeling ashamed because of things terfs accuse trans men of

Had a very unpleasant encounter with a TERF classmate who tried to “convert” me

They even use the term TERF in their title, which GC considers a slur.

No shit? But the fact that you are still attracted to the same people you were attracted to before transitioning, means that your sexual orientation didn' t change. The only thing you changed is the name you call yourself because of your sexuality, because you think you have changed sex. You haven' t, and you haven' t changed sexuality either.

Yes it's the label for your sexual orientation that changes. As a straight woman I will tell you I'm attracted to pre-transition trans women but not post-transition trans women. This will depend on how far into transition they are.

So you are attracted to males and females who present as males.

That' s called bisexuality.

That's called heterosexuality. Aren't most people attracted to gender presentation?

[–]Omina_SentenziosaSarcastic Ovalord 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (17 children)

I mean socially passing trans men are not treated as female

That' s not what you said. You said that trans men are not female.

so it doesn't make sense for GC to include trans men in most of their activism. But we do acknowledge not all sex characteristics can be changed.

If you acknowledge that not all sex characteristics can be changed, then you should understand that those characteristics that can' t be changed and come from female biology are what we focus on when we say we include trans natal females in our activism and why they are female.

Yes, trans women get move visibility than trans men. But trans men on r/FTM have posted anti-GC threads.

Great, then they can stay as far away as they want. We are not forcing them to join us, and we are not forcing them to use whatever right radical feminism fights for.

Yes it's the label for your sexual orientation that changes. As a straight woman I will tell you I'm attracted to pre-transition trans women but not post-transition trans women. This will depend on how far into transition they are.

It' s called "I like men who present as men and don' t like men who present as women".

That's called heterosexuality.

Heterosexuality means being attracted to the opposite sex. Being attracted to both sexes is bisexuality.

Aren't most people attracted to gender presentation?

No. Liking someone' s gender presentation is not sexual orientation, it' s a preference. And most people care more about the body of the person who "presents" as one gender or the other than the presentation. That means that a straight man might mistake another man for a woman if he passes well enough and could find him attractive, but the second he learns that the guy in question still has a penis, he' s going to stop being attracted and interested. Unless he' s bisexual.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers[S] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (16 children)

That' s not what you said. You said that trans men are not female.

Socially they are not. They are men.

If you acknowledge that not all sex characteristics can be changed, then you should understand that those characteristics that can' t be changed and come from female biology are what we focus on when we say we include trans natal females in our activism and why they are female.

That's like a feminist using albeist slurs and then claiming to include disabled people. I am learning disabled.

Great, then they can stay as far away as they want. We are not forcing them to join us, and we are not forcing them to use whatever right radical feminism fights for.

They do with GC feeling sorry for them and calling them handmaidens.

It' s called "I like men who present as men and don' t like men who present as women".

Which is heterosexuality.

Heterosexuality means being attracted to the opposite sex. Being attracted to both sexes is bisexuality.

So people are actually attracted to uterus and prostates and chromosomes and not bodies?

No. Liking someone' s gender presentation is not sexual orientation, it' s a preference. And most people care more about the body of the person who "presents" as one gender or the other than the presentation. That means that a straight man might mistake another man for a woman if he passes well enough and could find him attractive, but the second he learns that the guy in question still has a penis, he' s going to stop being attracted and interested. Unless he' s bisexual.

It is a sexual orientation. By the way I said I am not attracted to vaginas so if he has a vagina I will not date him but am willing to do sexual things with him that don't involve his vagina.

[–]Omina_SentenziosaSarcastic Ovalord 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (15 children)

Socially they are not. They are men.

Then you shouldn' t have have used the word "female". I don' t share the idiocy that woman and man are terms that refer to social presentation, but you didn' t use those, you used "female".

You are so full of it it' s ridicoulous.

That's like a feminist using albeist slurs and then claiming to include disabled people. I am learning disabled.

Cool, then those horribly mistreated "men" should stay away from us and should stop, voluntarily, benefit from anything radical feminists and GCers have ever gained for women. That will show us!!!!

They do with GC feeling sorry for them and calling them handmaidens.

They can and should keep doing it . We won' t stop saying that lots of them are transitioning for internalized misogyny or because some of them are handmaiden.

Which is heterosexuality.

No, it' s bisexuality.

So people are actually attracted to uterus and prostates and chromosomes and not bodies?

Bodies are female or male according to their sex. If you get body mods to pretend that you are a member of the other sex, then you might confuse someone if you pass very well. The second a straight man finds out that the "woman" he finds hot has a dick or used to have a dick, however, it' s done.

It is a sexual orientation.

No.

By the way I said I am not attracted to vaginas so if he has a vagina I will not date him but am willing to do sexual things with him that don't involve his vagina.

Still bisexuality.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (14 children)

Then you shouldn' t have have used the word "female". I don' t share the idiocy that woman and man are terms that refer to social presentation, but you didn' t use those, you used "female".

I said female, not assigned female at birth.

Cool, then those horribly mistreated "men" should stay away from us and should stop, voluntarily, benefit from anything radical feminists and GCers have ever gained for women. That will show us!!!!

They did a long time ago. BTW, not all radfems are GC. GC is a branch of radical feminism.

They can and should keep doing it . We won' t stop saying that lots of them are transitioning for internalized misogyny or because some of them are handmaiden.

Then your feminism doesn't include trans men, instead it actively promotes bigotry against trans men.

No, it' s bisexuality.

Most people disagree with you.

Bodies are female or male according to their sex. If you get body mods to pretend that you are a member of the other sex, then you might confuse someone if you pass very well. The second a straight man finds out that the "woman" he finds hot has a dick or used to have a dick, however, it' s done.

I know many straight men who wouldn't do that.

[–]yishengqingwa666 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

You are laughably ignorant and really quite boring. Goodbye.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

So are you.

[–]Omina_SentenziosaSarcastic Ovalord 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (11 children)

I said female, not assigned female at birth.

And? I have no idea what you are getting at with this. You said female instead of AFAB, so what? The word "female" still has a meaning, and trans men are female. They don' t change sex through transition, presentation or identification.

They did a long time ago.

Then I have no clue why people like you are whining about how we are not inclusive enough to make them happy: they don' t want to be included, but you are whining about it?

Then your feminism doesn't include trans men, instead it actively promotes bigotry against trans men.

You are entitled to your opinion.

Most people disagree with you.

Good for them: I think they are wrong.

I know many straight men who wouldn't do that.

Those men aren' t straight.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (10 children)

And? I have no idea what you are getting at with this. You said female instead of AFAB, so what? The word "female" still has a meaning, and trans men are female. They don' t change sex through transition, presentation or identification.

The word female has multiple meanings though. A person can be socially female even if they aren't biologically female.

Then I have no clue why people like you are whining about how we are not inclusive enough to make them happy: they don' t want to be included, but you are whining about it?

Then your feminism doesn't include trans men.

Good for them: I think they are wrong.

Society already has established the definition of heterosexuality. Main stream society considers womens attraction to trans men straight.

Those men aren' t straight.

If they weren't straight they would be attracted to men (including all male presenting people), but they aren't.

[–]worried19 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

That's called heterosexuality. Aren't most people attracted to gender presentation?

I don't get this viewpoint. Is my male partner gay or bisexual because I have a masculine gender presentation? Or do you think there need to be hormones involved?

[–]VioletRemihomosexual female (aka - lesbian) 5 insightful - 3 fun5 insightful - 2 fun6 insightful - 3 fun -  (2 children)

Yeah, this will mean that other people sexual orientation depends on you. And not on them. And this means that sexual orientation can be changed, which is false.

[–]worried19 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

It doesn't make sense from a logical standpoint. If a man dates a woman, and she's feminine, then he's straight, but if she changes up her appearance and becomes GNC, then all of a sudden he's gay or bisexual? It doesn't work like that. Nothing has materially changed in either case. She still has a female body.

[–]VioletRemihomosexual female (aka - lesbian) 5 insightful - 5 fun5 insightful - 4 fun6 insightful - 5 fun -  (0 children)

You don't understand, girl. I am floating-gender, so my gender is different every day.

Yesterday I was wearing pink dress, so I was a woman, so my girlfriend was a lesbian.

Today I am wearing black pants, so I am a man, so my girlfriend is straight now.

Tomorrow I am planning to be demigender and wear rainbow-colored paranja, so my girlfriend will be pansexual.

As easy as that!

Is it clear that it is obvious sarcasm, or should I add /s because in today's political climate someone can say this seriously?