Where are all the conservative socialists in the West?

submitted by IamCleaver from self.politics

sorted by:
top
newinsightfulfun
you are viewing a single comment's thread.

view the rest of the comments →

[–]StillLessons 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (74 children)

How do you define conservative? It's not clear from your post.

[–]IamCleaver[S] 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (73 children)

Family values. Societal norms above personal freedom. Respect for traditions. That is the gist. I can give a more detailed breakdown if you want.

[–]StillLessons 7 insightful - 3 fun7 insightful - 2 fun8 insightful - 3 fun -  (72 children)

Your post highlights an eternal central problem in debating politics. The language we use to define different groups has always been muddy as hell. What you are using as "conservative", for example, is sometimes described as "socially conservative". But there are people in my family who find that use of the word "conservative" offensive, because they believe conservatism is about economics, thinking social conservatives to be dupes of authoritarians. Because these terms are so frustratingly confused, the entire debate has splintered along a thousand different fractures with everyone yelling at everyone else over which ever is our particular pet peeve.

For myself, I find the most useful term (though far from perfect) to be Libertarian. I would like to have it be even more specific, as Individual Libertarian, stressing that individuals have rights that corporations DO NOT. The first and foremost right is individual personal freedom (liberty), which can be limited only after the individual demonstrates serious cause to do so (i.e. abuses the freedom of his/her neighbors). It is this fundamental natural state of individual freedom that is under direct assault by today's elite class, and that is the first priority of all conversation for me. The other pieces must all be aligned with that. This was the purpose of the Bill of Rights, now lying burning in the garbage.

Again, though, the problem is that words are very easily misused (quite intentionally, by charismatic rhetoricians), and the resulting confusion always provides politicians opportunities to abuse others for personal gain. This is the expertise of those who make their living at the public teat.

[–]IamCleaver[S] 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (71 children)

Ok then. I am a SOCIALLY conservative socialist. I believe that the societal norms and traditions are above the wishes and freedoms of individuals. That doesn't mean that the individual is irrelevant, but one should not do what is considered socially unacceptable. You are free to express yourself as you wish as long as the society at large doesn't disapprove of it.

What do you mean by "corporations"? As in private commercial companies? I believe they should never be allowed to have any say in matters of politics and the society. Their sole function should be the generation of wealth that could then be taxed and used by the government for the good of the society. I completely agree that individuals should have more rights than corporations.

[–]JasonCarswellVoluntaryist 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (12 children)

You are free to express yourself as you wish as long as the society at large doesn't disapprove of it.

That very black and white thinking will stifle development, the arts, etc etc etc. There is wisdom in mobs, but there is also stupidity in group-think, and the tyranny of the majority can be very ugly.

[–]IamCleaver[S] 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (6 children)

I disagree. It can get out of control under certain conditions, but usually it doesn't. Humans are naturally tribalistic. We are adapted to fitting into the society we live it.

[–]VulptexVoluntaryist 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

Something being natural doesn't make it a good thing

[–]IamCleaver[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Good like fighting nature. I prefer to embrace it.

[–]VulptexVoluntaryist 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

It's the red pill: the truth is awful.

[–]IamCleaver[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

The truth is the truth. It is what it is. We should accept it and act accordingly.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Here you are arguing FOR the SJWs.

[–]JasonCarswellVoluntaryist 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (3 children)

Here you are arguing FOR the SJWs.

Bullshit.

I'm arguing for creativity.
New architecture, new fashion, new literature, new cinema, new music, new anything - not just the arts. New engineering, new science, new medicine, new technology, new code, new ways to communicate. New ways to do every facet of life. Without experimentation and the ability to do new things in new ways we'll never advance.

Pink hair is new. I think it sucks, but only because of the SJW ideology it symbolizes. It was neat before 2013.

Will every new thing succeed? Hell no. But it's no reason to give up - or to lose our FREEDOM to experiment and grow.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (2 children)

Without a strong framework about what's acceptable and what's off-limits, degenerates will turn everything to shit. Case in point: the world we live in. Only the NSDAP ever provided such a framework. Before that, the inertia of history sufficed, and after that well... being rigtheous is now an insult.

[–]JasonCarswellVoluntaryist 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

Without a strong framework about what's acceptable and what's off-limits,

Agreed.

degenerates

And counter-degenerates, and counter-counter-degenerates... Also judgementalists. These terms and systems also need fair frameworks.

It might be time to open-develop some frameworks.

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Doesn't work, unless you have ethnically monolithic nations. Which... WE DON'T ANYMORE.

What do you think Christian whites, black & brown muslims, hindus, Jews, atheists, satanists and buddhists will agree on? NOTHING. They've made damned sure of that.

[–]VulptexVoluntaryist 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (57 children)

I believe that the societal norms and traditions are above the wishes and freedoms of individuals. That doesn't mean that the individual is irrelevant, but one should not do what is considered socially unacceptable. You are free to express yourself as you wish as long as the society at large doesn't disapprove of it.

Agsin, how on earth is that a good thing? That sounds like hell. Your human instincts like it but they are evil.

[–]IamCleaver[S] 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (56 children)

Why is that evil? We live in a society. We are its members. The society is the source of morality (because there isn't anyone else). If there is a consensus that wearing a certain element of clothing is unacceptable then don't wear it publicly. Don't make people angry on purpous. As members of the society, I strongly believe it is our duty to conform to its norms. The more a society is homogeneous the less there is room for conflict, the more stable it becomes. Don't rock the boat unless it is absolutely necessary.

[–]VulptexVoluntaryist 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (32 children)

The society is the source of morality

Keep saying that but someday its worst enemy Jesus will return and overthrow the power it unrightfully stole.

As members of the society, I strongly believe it is our duty to conform to its norms.

But I never joined society. I was forced into it, and so was everyone else. We were kidnapped. We are slaves.

The more a society is homogeneous the less there is room for conflict, the more stable it becomes. Don't rock the boat unless it is absolutely necessary.

If no one can be themselves, if no one can live life, what's the point of living at all? And what's the point of having a society meant to improve peoples' lives if it ends up making it worse?

You fell for the evil human agenda. Wake up, think for yourself, stop listening to society and your instincts. They don't care about you.

[–]IamCleaver[S] 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (31 children)

"Keep saying that but someday its worst enemy Jesus will return and overthrow the power it unrightfully stole." Or maybe Zeus. Or perhaps Vishnu...it is hard to guess. I prefer to assume non of those guys.

"But I never joined society. I was forced into it, and so was everyone else. We were kidnapped. We are slaves." What? Maybe where you live that is the case, but I personally was BORN into the society.

"If no one can be themselves, if no one can live life, what's the point of living at all?" If by your standard, being yourself is breaking the rules then you are causing more damage to others then they are causing to you (since you are one an they are many). I have no trouble living without causing discomfort to others.

"And what's the point of having a society meant to improve peoples' lives if it ends up making it worse?" The way I see it, a prosperous harmonious society is the key to improving people's lives.

[–]JasonCarswellVoluntaryist 5 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

I have no trouble living without causing discomfort to others.

SJWs have been brainwashed to think they have a right to not be offended.

They TAKE offense at everything. Even when no offense is GIVEN.

They are STEALING our culture by destroying it.

They are not the majority but they act like it.

It will be unbearable if they do grow.

Civil war looms.

[–]VulptexVoluntaryist 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (29 children)

What? Maybe where you live that is the case, but I personally was BORN into the society.

Yeah, tell me about why you chose to be born. Oh right, you didn't, nor did you choose where, from what parents, your sex, your genetics, your looks, your talents, or anything.

If by your standard, being yourself is breaking the rules then you are causing more damage to others then they are causing to you (since you are one an they are many). I have no trouble living without causing discomfort to others.

I don't cause discomfort for others. But humans are extremely petty authoritarians and have zero tolerance for any difference at all. They will attack me for not being identical to them. Even if I literally can't help it. And when I can, I'm forced to be someone I'm not.

The way I see it, a prosperous harmonious society is the key to improving people's lives.

Or it's really the key to max procreation and your instincts' agenda. A dystopian totalitarian society which is basically a prison only benefits those who run it. It may benefit "the collective" but that is an imaginary concept; it doesn't exist. A collective is merely the sum of its individuals, thus the individual is what matters. Our instincts give us a mythical idea of the collective but they are LYING to us. Nature's agenda is procreation, it doesn't care about you or how much suffering happens and lives are devastated in the process.

[–]IamCleaver[S] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (28 children)

"Yeah, tell me about why you chose to be born. Oh right, you didn't, nor did you choose where, from what parents, your sex, your genetics, your looks, your talents, or anything." Well, If you don't like being born than go hang yourself (don't! I am not promoting suicide, just making a point). If you were born and raised in a society then you should have automatically picked up on its traditions and norms. Respect them.

"They will attack me for not being identical to them" Unless you really stand out in a way that is unacceptable nobody cares. What is it you are doing that makes everyone so angry (a genuine non-rhetorical question, you got me intrigued)? If you are not causing anyone discomfort then nobody should attack you.

" A collective is merely the sum of its individuals, thus the individual is what matters." I don't get that leap of logic. The collective is indeed the some of its individuals. It is the mean opinion of all its members on all matters important to them. Unless you have a very divided, unhealthy society, the majority of people should share the majority of values. The minority conforms to that collective majority.

Obviously, those few who really stand out in a way that the majority sees as unacceptable, would not like this arrangement. But they are just that. The few; the minority. Seven don't wait for one. If the majority finds it offensive for men to dress like women, then nobody should dress like a women.

[–]JasonCarswellVoluntaryist 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (22 children)

Have you gotten your mandatory vaccination?

[–]IamCleaver[S] 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (21 children)

Where I live it isn't mandatory.

[–]JasonCarswellVoluntaryist 4 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 2 fun -  (20 children)

I know. Lucky you. Now imagine if the mob was whipped up into a frenzy by propaganda and insisted you all take an experimental vaccination - and censored all actual science and healthy skepticism.

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (9 children)

Yes, just imagine Russia being one of the bastions of freedom in the XXIst century!

[–]IamCleaver[S] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (9 children)

I wouldn't mind it that much. I would take the vaccine tomorrow if I were to get at least a hundred dollars for it. Not having access to free healthcare and having to take loans to go to university is a much bigger deal for me.